Walthers Cornerstone "Retired" Kits

[Trucklover]

I found out a bit of information that might be of interest to those looking for Walthers "Retired" kits.

What most people dont know is that the more of the retired kits people place on backorder, the better chance they have at Walthers doing another run on them. Take the Valley Cement Plant for example, been retired for quite a while now, well how Walthers will know if they should do another run on the kit is if there are alot of backorders for it. This tells them that there is alot of interest in the kits still and will motivate them to do another batch of them, but there has to be alot of people that have them on backorder to make it worth there time and money to make new tooling for the kits.... What they dont want is to do another run on a kit that doesnt sell well and just sits and sits and sits in the warehouse for years. Their Buyers review the backorders on Walthers products about once a year, usually around Christmas time. If they see a particular kit that has alot of backorders, they will throw it in the list and consider it for a re-run.

Here is a long list of kits that i would like to see make a come back:

933-2907 - Gas Storage Tank
933-3011 - Central Gas & Supply
933-3013 - North Island Refinery
933-3022 - ADM Grain Elevator
933-3023 - ADM Add-On Silos
933-3027 - ADM Scale House
933-3045 - Vulcan Manufacturing
933-3046 - George Robert's Printing
933-3059 - Planning Mill & Shed
933-3060 - Superior Paper Company
933-3074 - Headquarters Building
933-3075 - Stamping Plant
933-3076 - Distribution Facility
933-3077 - Uptown Motors Dealership
933-3078 - Tire Plant
933-3079 - Assembly Plant
933-3081 - Plastic Pellet Transfer
933-3082 - Mill Brothers Lumber Wholesaler
933-3086 - Blue Star Ready Mix Batch Plant
933-3089 - Western Coal Flood Loader
933-3098 - Valley Cement Plant
933-3129 - Propane Tanks
933-3145 - Rotary Dumper
933-3167 - Wide Oil Storage Tank
933-3504 - Industrial Cooling Tower
933-3514 - Industrial Storage Tanks
933-3525 - Woodchip Truck Loader
933-3526 - Woodchip Car Loader
933-3704 - Red-X Cement
933-3705 - United Petroleum Refining

Ill be placing more then a few of the above kits on backorder for myself, some of them i really want/need 2-3 of them for future modeling and stockpiling on them for kitbashing, so thats what ill place on backorder and hope they eventually do another run LOL.

If anyone would like me to place backorders for a retied kit(s) or a kit(s) that has no expected date to be back in stock, PM me or post here with the kit number and i can do that for you. Dont worry, your not committed to whatever you place on backorder, and no payment is expected to place them on backorder, for the obvious reason that there is no guarantee that they will be available again anytime soon. However if they do come out again and i get news of the re-run, ill pass the info along to you and ask you if you would like to proceed with getting the kit

 

[kenw]

there may be some legal issues with "unretiring" an old kit. If it was marketed as limited run, there have been lawsuits in others venues that claimed a re-run violates the claim of limited run. Many of these kits were snatched up by 'investors" looking to make a buck someday, if they are re-issued they stand to have their investment wiped out. Not that I sympathize with them, but the courts have in some cases as I remember.

 

[RexHea]

Josh, another way it to simply ask Walthers if they will ever have another run. That is what worked with the new Ashland Steel Mill accessories:larry cars, quencher cars, hand rails, piping, etc. Don't get me wrong: It still took a very long time.

 

[Trucklover]

there may be some legal issues with "unretiring" an old kit. If it was marketed as limited run, there have been lawsuits in others venues that claimed a re-run violates the claim of limited run. Many of these kits were snatched up by 'investors" looking to make a buck someday, if they are re-issued they stand to have their investment wiped out. Not that I sympathize with them, but the courts have in some cases as I remember.

I never thought of it like that before. Walthers does have some things that state that they are Limited Runs. i looked back on a couple structures they recently did a re-run on, they say they are "limited return" which i dont think would be classified as being a limited run since it was already in production once before. I would understand if they brought back a limited run item, but i dont think anyone could do anything by Walthers bringing back some of there own products that were not stated as "limited runs" before they were retired or sold out.

 

[Trucklover]

Josh, another way it to simply ask Walthers if they will ever have another run. That is what worked with the new Ashland Steel Mill accessories:larry cars, quencher cars, hand rails, piping, etc. Don't get me wrong: It still took a very long time.

That is exactly how i found this information out in the first place lol. I asked my Walthers Rep. about the Valley Cement plant kit, and he told me what i said in my first post, that by backordering them they could make a comeback if there is enough interest....

 

[UP2CSX]

Walthers seems to be a bit psychotic lately. They keep bring out structures and rolling stock than any modeler could tell them will have a continuing demand as "limited runs". OTOH, they have the Milwaukee Union Station, at $250 , which seems to not be a "limited run". I notice that they've now droped the price fifty bucks in the latest flyer. I don't know how many they've built and sold but I would guess they built way too many and sold about 20 of them. Same thing with new ore boat at $250 . It's going to have a very limited demand, especially at that price, so it's another one to wait around for the price to go down by $100 if you really want one. It seems to me you make money by selling things, not developing backorder lists.

 

[Trucklover]

Walthers seems to be a bit psychotic lately. They keep bring out structures and rolling stock than any modeler could tell them will have a continuing demand as "limited runs". OTOH, they have the Milwaukee Union Station, at $250 , which seems to not be a "limited run". I notice that they've now droped the price fifty bucks in the latest flyer. I don't know how many they've built and sold but I would guess they built way too many and sold about 20 of them. Same thing with new ore boat at $250 . It's going to have a very limited demand, especially at that price, so it's another one to wait around for the price to go down by $100 if you really want one. It seems to me you make money by selling things, not developing backorder lists.

I agree with you on the Union Station kit, it has a very limited crowd and i think they did make too many, and the price is too extreme lol

But ill have to disagree with you on the Ore Boat. Those things are selling out like hot cakes! Im not even kidding, there really tough to get ahold of right now. SYLVAN SCALE MODELS is the one who is making the boats for Walthers, Walthers has the exclusive deal on them, so at one point or another, each and every one of them boats went through the Walthers Warehouse.

I myself had 3 on order, placed them back on order about a month and a half ago. I saw how fast they were flying out. Walthers would get 50 or so in, and they wouldnt even make it on the website showing as in stock Why? because they were selling out in pre-orders and reservations. In fact right now, this very moment they still have A TON of people in line waiting for them, myself being one of them. They have shipped me 2 boats (one went out yesterday and one went out this morning) and 3 extention kits so far. I ordered 3 boats and 4 extension kits total, and there is no telling when my last boat and extension kit will come in, but im first in line to have my backorder filled when they show up from SYLVAN SCALE MODELS. The boats have come and gone from the Warehouse 4 times if i remember correctly. Thats 4 times in less then 2 months!

The price is extreme on the boats, but you would be surprised how incredibly fast there flying out the door. Alot of the Steel Modelers have very deep pockets, and well Walthers and SYLVAN SCALE MODELS are really cashing in on it lol. Us modelers dont really have a choice, if we want it bad enough, we will pay what it takes to get it. I dont know how many total boats and extension kits are being produced, but ill tell you what, i aint gunna wait and find out that they are completely sold out on them. Who knows if they will ever do these again, Walthers could try and try and try all they want to do another run on them, but in the end its all up to SYLVAN SCALE MODELS if they want to produce more of them. I dont see anything about a "Limited Run" in the descriptions on the Walthers site for the boat & extension kits, so who knows maybe they could do another run, but i just dont wanna take that chance. i got one boat and 2 extension kits for myself (can make a boat of 56" long now lol), they will be safely stored away in my closet with the rest of my stockpiled steel mill kits.

 

[NYSW F45]

well if all it takes is to place it in back order to get walthers to possibly re-release a kit. Then everyone look up the 85' Horizon passenger cars in HO and back order the NJ Transit and NJ DOT ones so they can be re-released and not go for outrageous prices on ebay sometimes.

 

[kenw]

another possibility is that they are using lower cost tooling which has a very limited life, only producing a 1000 or so before the tooling (aluminum injection molding or maybe compression molding) literally wears out. That will give them a lower cost way to judge the market, and if they sell well, then they can order more tooling which takes some time. Meanwhile the back orders keep coming in.....

 

[UP2CSX]

Josh, I have the feeling that a lot of people are buying the ore boat on speculation that Walthers didn't order very many and they'll be out of stock soon. That means an extra $50-$100 on e-bay if they're right or having a lot of ore boats stacked up if they're wrong. I can't really believe there are that many steel modelers out there with the space and money for a $250 ore boat. Sylvan is a small operation and, since Walthers has an exclusive on this model, I think this is a big speculative play.

The Union Station was obvious bomb right from the begining since it was a normal Walthers kit and most people with the space to put one om a layout were on the sidelines waiting for a price drop.

This reminds me of the old days of brass, when speculators would try to guess which models would have the lowest runs and the highest demand. They'd snap them up and hold on to them for a few years and some of the big brass players made a lot of money. That happened during a period of high inflation, when people expected to pay more for everything as time passed. I think we're headed for another period of high inflation and I can see that ore boat being worth $500 a few years from now if the same pattern repeats itself. Just like the brass locomotive craze, it has very little to do with actual model railroading

 

[Trucklover]

Josh, I have the feeling that a lot of people are buying the ore boat on speculation that Walthers didn't order very many and they'll be out of stock soon. That means an extra $50-$100 on e-bay if they're right or having a lot of ore boats stacked up if they're wrong. I can't really believe there are that many steel modelers out there with the space and money for a $250 ore boat. Sylvan is a small operation and, since Walthers has an exclusive on this model, I think this is a big speculative play.

The Union Station was obvious bomb right from the begining since it was a normal Walthers kit and most people with the space to put one om a layout were on the sidelines waiting for a price drop.

This reminds me of the old days of brass, when speculators would try to guess which models would have the lowest runs and the highest demand. They'd snap them up and hold on to them for a few years and some of the big brass players made a lot of money. That happened during a period of high inflation, when people expected to pay more for everything as time passed. I think we're headed for another period of high inflation and I can see that ore boat being worth $500 a few years from now if the same pattern repeats itself. Just like the brass locomotive craze, it has very little to do with actual model railroading

If thats going to be the case with the boats, then i might wanna get another one or 2 of them if i can get ahold of them and hold onto them. If they dont go up in price in a few years when there not available anymore, it wont be like i cant use them! I got a 12-1/2' Ore Dock that will look awful naked with only one 56" Ore Boat

 

[ChevelleSSguy]

I didnt realize the ADM grain elevator was out of production. Or the add on silos for that matter. It doesnt make a bit of sense to keep these kits out of production when so many modelers want or need these kits for thier layouts. Every state has its share of grain elevators so its a necessity for almost any location your modeling as far as im concerned. Same goes for cement plants. Within reason of course, this also depends on the era modeled too I suppose but you see what I mean.

If stock wasnt moving much then they can keep the stock low, but constant enough to at least help out those modelers like myself get the kits they need with dealing with the second hand market and mark ups.

Now if you ask me about the one kit that Walthers absolutely needs to bring back again. That would be the Conerstone Operating Bascule Bridge. One of the coolest kits I can think of and they were in hobby shops everywhere and I am kicking myself for not picking on up at the time to have for the future. It never occurred to me that kits like that would go out of production. Im not about to pay 300 dollars for one on ebay. Makes me wonder if I should pick up one of those swing bridges just in case.

 

[Trucklover]

I didnt realize the ADM grain elevator was out of production. Or the add on silos for that matter. It doesnt make a bit of sense to keep these kits out of production when so many modelers want or need these kits for thier layouts. Every state has its share of grain elevators so its a necessity for almost any location your modeling as far as im concerned. Same goes for cement plants. Within reason of course, this also depends on the era modeled too I suppose but you see what I mean.

If stock wasnt moving much then they can keep the stock low, but constant enough to at least help out those modelers like myself get the kits they need with dealing with the second hand market and mark ups.

Now if you ask me about the one kit that Walthers absolutely needs to bring back again. That would be the Conerstone Operating Bascule Bridge. One of the coolest kits I can think of and they were in hobby shops everywhere and I am kicking myself for not picking on up at the time to have for the future. It never occurred to me that kits like that would go out of production. Im not about to pay 300 dollars for one on ebay. Makes me wonder if I should pick up one of those swing bridges just in case.

The ADM Grain kit is one of the most popular kits i can think of, and you are right, just about every state has grain elevators, and the majority of us modelers have at least one of them on the layout! It blows me away that there is no expected date for them to be back in. I even talked with my Walthers rep about the kit, there is no information about the return in the system either, none on order or anything

BTW, the Add-On Silo kit has been retired/sold out for quite some time now lol

 

[nephthyr]

I have an ADM kit unopened, $500, any takers? Seriously though, I'm really disappointed to find out the ADM kit is off the market although, scratchbuilding a similar elevator shouldn't prove too difficult but still, this kit is an absolute must for the novice not wanting to scratchbuild.

 

[UP2CSX]

Josh, and you are probably one of the few people who has ordered the ore boat with a 12.5 foot long ore dock. You're probably one of the few people who who ordered them who has an ore dock anywhere in their immediate future. Most of these are being ordered by speculators. Even my post got you thinking you should order a few more, but at least you have a real modeling reason for it., as well as the hope of making a few bucks.

The brass locomotive market began to decline a few years ago and really crashed with the general economic crash. You can now buy the same brass engine for less than you could ten years ago. Collectors slowly realized that there were a lot more well preserved brass engines out there than they thought when the market was at its peak and everyone was selling. This caused a general fall in brass prices and that fall has continued. A lot of people who have been speculating on "limited run" models will come to realize the same thing when prices on those peak so, if you're going to speculate, take a small profit now rather than waiting for the big one down the road, when you may find your model is worth less than you paind for it.

 

[stang_crazy]

there may be some legal issues with "unretiring" an old kit. If it was marketed as limited run, there have been lawsuits in others venues that claimed a re-run violates the claim of limited run. Many of these kits were snatched up by 'investors" looking to make a buck someday, if they are re-issued they stand to have their investment wiped out. Not that I sympathize with them, but the courts have in some cases as I remember.

usually the way it works when there is a "limited run" that dont mean that cant release it again, they normally have to wait a certain period of time.

 

[AndrewC]

The reasoning behind these so called limited editions or small run editions has more to do with the current business model of production as opposed to any desire to create a collectable market.

Firstly companies like Walthers don't produce anything. Its all farmed out. They hire a tool maker to create the masters and the injection moulding tooling. Then they go to a contracted factory and schedule a production run.

The size of the run depends on a lot of factors such as tool complexity and life span, production run complexity, sales estimates, minimum run requirements, etc. They may be able to produce 20,000 units before the tooling gives out but if the bean counters estimate a fast sale figure of only 10,000 they aren't going to produce the extra number. If it sells out and the tooling is still viable there is still the problem of scheduling another run. Something else would have to get bumped.

The sales estimate is one of the most important. In today's business model the buzzword is 0 inventory. Walthers etal want to do a run, sell 100% of the run, and ship it asap.

Modern tooling techniques using rapid prototyping and cutting methods create moulds that are half the cost of traditional tooling but have a much shorter lifespan. Usually these cheaper tools have only a 10k to 20k cycle. In terms of higher pressure injections for very detailed components this can fall as low as 5k cycles. Some of the newer Hornby stuff coming from Sanda Kan (same factory as Walthers use for their Proto runs) is limited to 4000 units because of the short life span of the tooling.

In the case of the ADM elevator there are lots of variables in play regarding if or when another run will be produced. Minimum run size vs potential sale vs tooling viability vs production run scheduling.

For better or worse I think the one run edition is here to stay.

 

[NYW&B]

The reasoning behind these so called limited editions or small run editions has more to do with the current business model of production as opposed to any desire to create a collectable market.

Firstly companies like Walthers don't produce anything. Its all farmed out. They hire a tool maker to create the masters and the injection moulding tooling. Then they go to a contracted factory and schedule a production run.

The size of the run depends on a lot of factors such as tool complexity and life span, production run complexity, sales estimates, minimum run requirements, etc.
(snip)
For better or worse I think the one run edition is here to stay.

Indeed, this is all quite painfully true. The very nature of the model railroading product marketplace has altered very dramatically in recent years. We went from a marketplace where most items were available from dealers', or manufacturers', stock for years on end, to one of a buy-it-now-or-potentially-never-see-it-again mentality. Stocking of items has virtually been eliminated and the product can now go straight from the import dock to the retailer/buyer.

Today's marketplace is increasingly aimed at the collector/dreamer, who more often than not has extra cash and big dreams for a future layout, rather than those buying to detail any existing pike. To a somewhat lesser degree, it also strongly favors the speculator. Limiting the runs can create artificially high prices/values for items and the potential of significant profit from later resale. George Sellios himself has indicated that around 50% of his FSM kits sell strictly to speculators. Without a doubt, items like Walthers' ore boat and the giant station fall into this same category. I'm sure you will be seeing increasing numbers of such over-sized kits at very high dollar figures in the future...perhaps even such things as entire manufacturing complexes sold as a unit (like the steel industry kits, sold as a unit instead of piece by piece).

NYW&B