I am completely flabbergasted.

[JeffH]

I believe Hydrogen cells are the future. It doesn't take much electricity to split water into H and O2. Burn the hydrogen, and water vapor is the only emission.

I see a day when every household has its own solar and wind powered electrolysis machine that uses local water supply to create the fuel, which is then restored to water when you burn it.

But I'm just a simple guy who knows nothing about any of that other than I was able to make hydrogen gas in a high school chemistry class using nothing but a 9v battery, a couple test tubes, some water and some pieces if wire.

 

[Espeefan]

I think a lot of things will get cancelled by the next administration Smudge. #1 return of domestic oil production; #2 Closing of our Southern border for starters.
glenng6 your information is more like what I hear most days about EV's.
Skyliner that's really interesting information. However the price of recharging your EV is more like .32 per kw from what I hear around here. But either way what will you do when there is not enough power to go around? You might get up in the morning and find that your battery isn't charged at all because the circuit breaker blew and you didn't know that. Too many EV's in your neighborhood.
Also somebody is going to get hit with the cost of new batteries at some time or other and the cost could just wipe out a persons finances. I'm not against EV's at all. It's a good idea I think but it's being forced down our throats way before there is enough power to charge all these cars at this time. There is always the wreck out on the interstate that holds up traffic for hours. What will happen when about fifty cars stop running all in the same spot? No provision for that either right now. The Green new deal is just moving way to fast and there is nothing we can do about it yet. #3 could be slowing all this down for the grid to catch up. Lots of pro's and con's here right now. 87000 IRS agents will be there to make sure you do it right though. The new Gestapo.

Ummm, the US is still the top producer of oil in the world. Domestic oil production never went anywhere to return from. I see this myth lots. not sure why. The problem is we use more than we produce. This isn't a problem that's going to go away. Its only going to get worse. Also, there's oil, then there's oil. Some makes really great gasoline, some males really great...asphalt. and yes our infrastructure needs work. When we needed more highways we built them. When we needed an electrical grid, we built one. If we want to stay a first world country, its time to quit kicking the can down the road. Oh, and there's no such thing as The Green New Deal. It exists only as an idea or wish list. It hasn't been passed. https://www.forbes.com/sites/rrapie...-the-worlds-top-oil-producer/?sh=621f99687b39

 

[glenng6]

Glad to hear many on here aren't drinking the EV cool-aid. It is too much, too soon. When you have to plan a trip, based upon where you can refuel your vehicle, then the infrastructure isn't ready. I recently read an article <https://climatechangedispatch.com/i...-a-four-day-road-trip-and-it-was-a-nightmare/> about someone who planned a trip, she thought would be easy, but ended up naming the article, "Electric Vehicle Trip from Hell." Something needs to replace fossil fuels, but it isn't the undercooked EV's the left is ramming down our throats. Glenn

 

[Smudge617]

Unfortunately the world seems to work a## backwards, we develop new technologies regardless of the simple question of, "can we safely dispose of it when it can no longer be used" we are too interested in making a buck and "quick fixes" Ev's are a quick fix, after all Lithium Batteries are hardly safely recyclable, so we totally disregard the eventual consequences of our wonderfuĺ "life changing" inventions.
When we have the technology in place to safely dispose of the same new technology, then we will have made real progress.

 

[ctclibby]

The thing that bugs me the most with EV is that they are not letting the technology drive it as it is being forced down our throats. EV has been around in some form or another for years. Batteries seem to be the stopping point as there is no way to renew them without a ton of $$$. Current EV's are destined for 100,000 hours ( or is that miles ) and when they need replaced the owner will probably sell the vehicle which puts it into the resale market and I can see value going through the floor. I mean, why would I buy a used vehicle that would need an immediate investment that could be equal to the value of the car? I understand that any used whatever is a shot in the dark as there is always something wrong or not just right with them.

As far as charging - most households have a 200Amp service of which 20% might be used for normal activity. So, if you need to charge your EV, you just don't run the dryer for a few hours. Sure, you have to put in a 50Amp drop for charging although I see that as no difference of keeping your hot tub hot. I remember the rage 25/30 years ago or so when everybody had to have a hot tub - 50KW heater and all. The grid survived for the most part, even in CA. As more and more people get on the solar bandwagon, that frees up the grid somewhat although you still can't get something for nothing. Astute solar people probably realize that you now charging batteries to charge batteries.

Being where I live ( 90 Miles from anywhere ) I think that I might give EV a go as we do not drive that much once home and that could be a benefit. Lets say we needed to go to Spo which is 150 miles one way. So 300 Miles plus running around probably would not be condusive to EV's, but conventional vehicles. As somebody pointed out - what happens when the Interstate gets closed down because of an accident or infrastructure failure? If in a temperate environment you can shut the thing down. What if 100, or -20 degrees? Ya can't just fly in a bunch of electrons so everybody will have their PV on the car's roof waiting for those clouds to go away.

 

[trailrider]

By all means, let's stop ALL petroleum production! Just don't try to lubricate anything. Forget about painting you model trains...or your house! I guess I MIGHT last 60-90 days without my meds...produced in part by petroleum. Destroy all pipelines! They might spring a leak and cause an environmental disaster. Ship everything by truck and train. But have the hazmat teams on standby when there is a derailment or vehicle crash!

As far as production of electricity is concerned, windmills ain't gonna be enough. Ground-based solar power isn't efficient enough. Modern nuclear power plants will take years to build and a lot of money, presuming the enviro-terrorists will permit it. How about fusion power? Great, clean, and pretty safe. The technology is only about 5-25 years away...as it has been for the last 65 years or so! There is one potential energy source: Space-based Solar Power. You take a large satellite that collects energy from the sun and turns it into microwave power, which you then beam down to rectennas on the ground. DARPA and the military are currently studying this on a small scale. so maybe we might have a working system in 5-10 years.

Anyways, so it goes...

 

[glenng6]

Unfortunately the world seems to work a## backwards, we develop new technologies regardless of the simple question of, "can we safely dispose of it when it can no longer be used" we are too interested in making a buck and "quick fixes" Ev's are a quick fix, after all Lithium Batteries are hardly safely recyclable, so we totally disregard the eventual consequences of our wonderfuĺ "life changing" inventions.
When we have the technology in place to safely dispose of the same new technology, then we will have made real progress.

Going back to the days of yore. Does anyone remember being told we had to switch to plastic bags, to save the trees? Now we have to stop using plastic bags, to save the earth? Just another exercise in stupidity. Somebody comes up with an idea, and makes a ton of money implementing it and do gooders ram it down our throats with no thought about what effect it may have on our futures. I don't know how todays parents can exist without paper bags for text book covers. Glenn

 

[Bonita Grand Central]

I am sure there is a better solution then a battery out there but like high gas mileage engines the gas companies have held that back. Oh yeah, it’s call nuclear power!

When they can commercially destroy safely the nuclear power rods and contaminated cooling waters and make a buck doing it with lasers, nuclear power will be the rage again. They should also be able to that with general refuse.

Return of USA oil production can be there now. There are more then enough capped oil wells just in Texas that could be brought into production with nothing from the administration holding production back. Yes, digging for new is being mucked up by the current regime. But when gas hit $4.00 a gallon and oil over $100 a barrel none of those capped wells were brought into production. That’s not a regime issue that is a oil company greed issue. With record profits in the last 2 quarters for oil company management look great to the shareholders and that is the American way!

With the shift and investments the gas auto manufacturers around the world are currently doing, the next administration, whenever that occurs, will reap the benefits and gladly take credit. The negative effects of course will be blamed on this administration. It’s the way of politics.

Whatever the act passed over the weekend by the Senate is called it will not stop inflation. Inflation was helped along when the previous administration gave out free money and the current administration continued the program. Then they also added their own twists.

We are a greatly reduced in 2022 but still a large Tesla shareholder even though I believed and still believe Musk is a huckster. I do not control the family finances per an agreement made with my wife since 1990. A great decision by the wife and son to buy when Tesla was newer has turned out better then the Apple. Unfortunately aRivian investment is not doing well. It is however about where Tesla was in 2014 when Terry found Tesla. I am not a true believer in the Electric cars as the future and feel that it needs to be getting better then the average of 25 mpg the average USA driver gets now. Tesla’s huge money source in 5 years will not IMO be the cars. It will be the Powerwalls and future energy storage devices they are developing.

The solar roof tiles we have from when Tesla was still selling roof tile solar panels are guaranteed for 20 years and there is a recycling program providing we buy Tesla again. But, since the roof tiles are on hold. That may become an issue. Those big power generating wind blades are an issue that hopefully laser recycling comes to the forefront and can take care of.

Interesting discussion

And then the Huckster sells eight million shares of his own company.

 

[Smudge617]

I am sure there is a better solution then a battery out there but like high gas mileage engines the gas companies have held that back. Oh yeah, it’s call nuclear power!

When they can commercially destroy safely the nuclear power rods and contaminated cooling waters and make a buck doing it with lasers, nuclear power will be the rage again. They should also be able to that with general refuse.

Return of USA oil production can be there now. There are more then enough capped oil wells just in Texas that could be brought into production with nothing from the administration holding production back. Yes, digging for new is being mucked up by the current regime. But when gas hit $4.00 a gallon and oil over $100 a barrel none of those capped wells were brought into production. That’s not a regime issue that is a oil company greed issue. With record profits in the last 2 quarters for oil company management look great to the shareholders and that is the American way!

With the shift and investments the gas auto manufacturers around the world are currently doing, the next administration, whenever that occurs, will reap the benefits and gladly take credit. The negative effects of course will be blamed on this administration. It’s the way of politics.

Whatever the act passed over the weekend by the Senate is called it will not stop inflation. Inflation was helped along when the previous administration gave out free money and the current administration continued the program. Then they also added their own twists.

We are a greatly reduced in 2022 but still a large Tesla shareholder even though I believed and still believe Musk is a huckster. I do not control the family finances per an agreement made with my wife since 1990. A great decision by the wife and son to buy when Tesla was newer has turned out better then the Apple. Unfortunately aRivian investment is not doing well. It is however about where Tesla was in 2014 when Terry found Tesla. I am not a true believer in the Electric cars as the future and feel that it needs to be getting better then the average of 25 mpg the average USA driver gets now. Tesla’s huge money source in 5 years will not IMO be the cars. It will be the Powerwalls and future energy storage devices they are developing.

The solar roof tiles we have from when Tesla was still selling roof tile solar panels are guaranteed for 20 years and there is a recycling program providing we buy Tesla again. But, since the roof tiles are on hold. That may become an issue. Those big power generating wind blades are an issue that hopefully laser recycling comes to the forefront and can take care of.
Interesting discussion

I'm going to disagree on "free money" causing inflation bit.

And why are wind turbines an issue?

 

[santafewillie]

I'm going to disagree on "free money" causing inflation bit.

And why are wind turbines an issue?

I respectfully disagree with your disagreement on the free money issue. I am experiencing and observing it first hand here in the states. I and most of my peers had no need for the extra money. Unlike others who spent it freely and contributed to supply issues, I donated mine to medical facilities to purchase much needed ventilators and face masks.
Wind turbines are an issue with birds. Eventually their instincts will educate them, just like power lines in the early days of electricity when they learned to avoid flying into them, but instead used them to their advantage for roosting. While they can't roost on turbines, eventually they will avoid them. Wind turbines are not a reliable source of power when the wind doesn't blow. They can however be a supplement to whatever else is being used. This crap probably won't affect me in my lifetime though.

 

[Smudge617]

I respectfully disagree with your disagreement on the free money issue. I am experiencing and observing it first hand here in the states. I and most of my peers had no need for the extra money. Unlike others who spent it freely and contributed to supply issues, I donated mine to medical facilities to purchase much needed ventilators and face masks.
Wind turbines are an issue with birds. Eventually their instincts will educate them, just like power lines in the early days of electricity when they learned to avoid flying into them, but instead used them to their advantage for roosting. While they can't roost on turbines, eventually they will avoid them. Wind turbines are not a reliable source of power when the wind doesn't blow. They can however be a supplement to whatever else is being used. This crap probably won't affect me in my lifetime though.

I will respectfully disagree with you about your disagreement, I think,??

According to latest reports in the US, wind turbines account for approximately one million birds, however, collisions with communications towers is around 6.5 million, power lines about 25 million, windows are up to 1 billion Oh! and cats, that's somewhere between 1.3 - 4.0 billion. And it seems birds killed by vehicles, or shot for sport or killed as they are considered as pests, aren't included.

 

[TLOC]

I'm going to disagree on "free money" causing inflation bit.

And why are wind turbines an issue?

The problem with the turbines all over the world is the recycling factor. Until recently not much thought was given to what to do with them after the useful time frame is up. The blades themselves were not easily if at all recycLea Le, maybe there are now?

I am not going to debate the free money and inflation but I do disagree with you. It maybe deemed too political. I hope Chris you understand

 

[TLOC]

I will respectfully disagree with you about your disagreement, I think,??

According to latest reports in the US, wind turbines account for approximately one million birds, however, collisions with communications towers is around 6.5 million, power lines about 25 million, windows are up to 1 billion Oh! and cats, that's somewhere between 1.3 - 4.0 billion. And it seems birds killed by vehicles, or shot for sport or killed as they are considered as pests, aren't included.

HaHa to disagree to disagree.

Personally, I think the birds as Willie noted will adapt. If not, they are gone so take pictures now Just in case!

Bonitagrandcentral, I asked the home (wife) financial expert what she thought of Mr. Huckster selling more stock. She says he’s stock rich and cash poor. He’s stock piling cash to pay off the Twitter lawsuit he is going to lose. Terry said she did a sell off the other day unknowing he was going to do so. I don’t like the guy, but the wife and son think he walks on water at least on how well we’ve done with the stock purchase made in 2014. They purchase around Christmas at $44.+. It was $900.09 per share today. What is strange about his sell offs is that investment community almost immediately lets the media know. Other billionaires have sell offs and often. But even though they are public record in at the most 24 hours, we don’t hear about them as quick as Elon’s.

 

[D&J RailRoad]

I'll iterate the idea of going EV isn't because most people think it's a great idea. It's more at because the forced destruction of petrolium.

 

[Bonita Grand Central]

Wow! $856 profit per share is really super. 87000 IRS agents are looking for you. Ha!

 

[Smudge617]

The problem with the turbines all over the world is the recycling factor. Until recently not much thought was given to what to do with them after the useful time frame is up. The blades themselves were not easily if at all recycLea Le, maybe there are now?

I am not going to debate the free money and inflation but I do disagree with you. It maybe deemed too political. I hope Chris you understand

Oh I agree with you on the recycle angle, as I said in an earlier post we're quick to invent new technologies, but how to safely dispose of same, never seems to enter anyone's head, I would assume the turbines could be melted down and recycled, however, someone would have to foot that bill too.

As for birds adapting, we been building large structures for many years, and skyscrapers for around 90, unfortunately they haven't learned to go round them yet.

As for the other issue, everyone's has their opinion, and that, to me, is good, I have no problem with someone disagreeing with me, (I certainly don't take offence if someone does), maybe I am wrong, but untill I see something to convice me otherwise I'll stick with my opinion, but that's all it is, an opinion.
However, it's a complex subject, with many social and economic issues combined, and like many things, I don't think there is one simple solution, but by debating it, opinions can change and solutions found.

 

[BigGRacing]

Time to chime in on efficiency from my point of view. Would love to replace my vehicle some day so I am always looking. I was extremely disappointed to see that many vehicles I looked at had worse gas mileage ratings than my 10 year old vehicle. In most cases, I was looking at a smaller vehicle but noticed the smaller 4cyl turbos didn’t fare much better than my older 6 cyl. I suspect that the mfrs are just using their EVs and hybrids to improve company emission standards.

 

[Smudge617]

Time to chime in on efficiency from my point of view. Would love to replace my vehicle some day so I am always looking. I was extremely disappointed to see that many vehicles I looked at had worse gas mileage ratings than my 10 year old vehicle. In most cases, I was looking at a smaller vehicle but noticed the smaller 4cyl turbos didn’t fare much better than my older 6 cyl. I suspect that the mfrs are just using their EVs and hybrids to improve company emission standards.

If my memory serves, a lot of companies receive tax breaks for reducing their "carbon footprint", meaning they get a tax break for their less efficient vehicles to offset XXX number of eco friendly vehicles they make, or something like that.

There was a comment or thread here somewhere that explained how it worked, but I can't find it.

 

[TLOC]

Wow! $856 profit per share is really super. 87000 IRS agents are looking for you. Ha!

Not yet are they checking us out over that. If they start I will know they check out Model Railroad Forums.

Its not a profit until you cash it in. Terry has reduced significantly this year all stocks but constantly looking to pounce on a deal. Helps keep her engaged!

 

[TLOC]

Oh I agree with you on the recycle angle, as I said in an earlier post we're quick to invent new technologies, but how to safely dispose of same, never seems to enter anyone's head, I would assume the turbines could be melted down and recycled, however, someone would have to foot that bill too.

As for birds adapting, we been building large structures for many years, and skyscrapers for around 90, unfortunately they haven't learned to go round them yet.

As for the other issue, everyone's has their opinion, and that, to me, is good, I have no problem with someone disagreeing with me, (I certainly don't take offence if someone does), maybe I am wrong, but untill I see something to convice me otherwise I'll stick with my opinion, but that's all it is, an opinion.
However, it's a complex subject, with many social and economic issues combined, and like many things, I don't think there is one simple solution, but by debating it, opinions can change and solutions found.

Debate is great unfortunately some of the debate would head to the politics of the world. That’s not acceptable here, too bad but understandable