MTH big boy is broke already!

[kbkchooch]

One of the things that I look at when acquiring a new piece of motive power, is how easy is it to get into and repair. As a result, a lot of my power is brass, or kit built engines.

Agreed!! Especially with steamers. I just remotored a Mehano Pacific and it was an exercise in patience! Even though the Sagami can I installed was smaller than the original noisebox, it's ohh so tight going back in!!

My brass steamers I can take apart almost by feel alone.

I do have 3 spectrum steamers that aren't that hard to get into or work on. After working on several of the current manufacturers offerings, I have to say I won't be getting any of them, anytime soon, and probably later.

One of my Consolidations had a motor failure. I got the replacement from Bachmann, and because of the cogged drive belt, I had to get the wife
to help me reassemble it! All I can figure is they have some 3 armed Chinaman putting these things together at the factory!

Considering that I have had all of my engines apart at one point or the other for DCC installation and/or lighting upgrades, I consider myself to be a fair judge of what is easy and whats not. The worst stuff has got to be recent Chinese built stuff. No wonder I've got 3 of those parts bins with the clear slide out drawers full of spare miscelleneous parts!

 

[Espeefan]

Guys,

I have a theory which you can consider. Though I'm no great MTH fan, I think this problem is hitting everyone who is doing diecast locos or really weighing down their diesels. I think we're in a time where the drive components need to catch up with the new heavier model weights. Engineering plastic has it's limits, and a heavily weighted loco pulling a heavy train will shorten the life of plastic gears and those thin spidery dogbones everyone used on the older lighter models. At trainfest I looked over the BLI GS-4. Nice model, BUT, very heavy. I picked up the tender and darn near got a hernia. Why make the tender so heavy? I cancelled my order. I'll make one of my brass models work. They are just as nice anyway and most have equal or finer detail. I've even got sound in a couple of them! Plus the KTM or NWSL gearboxes I have in them are much stouter than anything I've seen coming out lately. Maybe NWSL should get to work on aftermarket gearing for these models, like they did with the Bachmann 3 truck shay!

 

[julienjj]

You raise a good point there, I think it would be nice to calculate the traction ratio of some popular HO engines, and compare it to the level of failure of these models. Maybe there is a comfort zone where weight do not affect longevity, and loco should be aimed at this weight. i believe prototype manifacturer do this, heard they are aiming a ratio of .44 ( no idea on what it does represent thought)

 

[hamltnblue]

It would probably be a good idea to re-lube MTH loco's or any others with a good grease with PFTE. Maybe that would help reduce the wear.
I'm also surprised that repair parts aren't available. I screwed up a light board when changing the decoder out on one of my SD70's and a phone call had one in the mail in 2 days.

 

[tomustang]

When we stop going to China to make products for "cheaper labor". But then i guess that becomes a reflection of price. Build it here, pay more i suppose.

Well think about it. We are paying a higher price by buying defective products. I have no problem paying a premium to get a good quality product made here in the US, and giving some Americans their jobs back.

I mean this is happening on a weekly basis now. What a great hobby only to be ruined by bad choices taking manufacturing to China.

I'm afraid to buy anything anymore. There is no company, no matter if it's cheap or expensive that has not had quality control problems.

We have no more choices? We just keep spending money on items that break?

That would be nice if they did come back to the states but, even American products are matching the quality of the Chinese now to save money.

 

[Cjcrescent]

Guys,...

Engineering plastic has it's limits, and a heavily weighted loco pulling a heavy train will shorten the life of plastic gears and those thin spidery dogbones everyone used on the older lighter models...

Alan, I believe that you have hit the nail on the head. While the locos have gotten much, much heavier, the gears have gotten thinner. Couple a thinner gear with more weigh that the gear has to move, and I believe that the stress is causing the teeth to either sheer off, or because they are so thin and the axle holes for the gears have to be made smaller to hold the gear on the axle, that the gear can't take that stress and they crack much sooner. One solution the manufacturers could take would be to go to a self contained idler gear box, similar to what comes on a brass steamer. Another would be to just eliminate the plastic gears completely and go to brass gears.

 

[irocinblue89]

Wow! I put the computer down for the holiday and we have a good discussion. Anyways, My 9000 seems to be alright. I think I'm going to look for a brass steamer next. I have the ability to fix most things but at these price points I shouldn't have to. Well my dryfuss is coming next week and I will let everyone know what I think. (As objectively as possible)
Seann

 

[julienjj]

Brass gear would be a good thing, but, the stress would cause the plastic support for the gear axle to break... then we discover that mecanical related parts are mean to be all made of metal.

 

[Espeefan]

For Seann:

For anyone who loves modeling steam, bless you, but you have to keep in mind a thing or two:

Our models match the prototype in a couple of key areas. They are more expensive to run. They are higher in cost. They are more difficult to maintain. The same key points that killed the prototype!

As for price point, well, I see your point and even agree somewhat, but steam models, particularly brass ones, almost always require some tinkering to get them to run on your layout. Brass in particular has to be tuned to the layout it is going to run on, which means you can get a model running on your layout, take it to a friends, and it will pick turnouts, short out on curves, and otherwise make you look bad. This is due to their being hand built, so even two of the same model are not exactly alike. It gets even more complicated if you're trying to run them around 22" or 18" radius curves.

There are more than a few on this forum who are trying to run 4-8-4's, six axle diesels, and 85 ft passenger cars around 18" radius curves with varying degrees of success. Most all of their frustartions come from a refusal to face reality and stick with 2-6-0's, 0-6-0's or 2-8-0's four axle diesels, and 60 foot passenger cars. I'm not dissing them, we all enjoy the hobby in our own way, but physics doesn't scale, and even if you can get the equipment around the curves it doesn't look great doing it.

If you do get into brass be very concious of your minimum radius. CJ once said that a brass model is the most expensive thing you will ever buy that's only 80% finished, and he wasn't thinking about paint Keep that in mind, and beware of being bitten by the brass bug. There is no antidote for the venom (the voice of experience )

For Julien:

It's more the gear geometry. I think the correctly sized gear in an engineering plastic box would be OK. The problem is gear thickness, and tooth profile as CJ said. Steel worms and brass worm gears would be great, and brass builders used them for years with great success. Plastic gears are cheaper, and quieter. Noise level may be the ruling issue with sound being more of a concern these days. I just hope they figure it out.

 

[irocinblue89]

For Seann:

For anyone who loves modeling steam, bless you, but you have to keep in mind a thing or two:

Our models match the prototype in a couple of key areas. They are more expensive to run. They are higher in cost. They are more difficult to maintain. The same key points that killed the prototype!

As for price point, well, I see your point and even agree somewhat, but steam models, particularly brass ones, almost always require some tinkering to get them to run on your layout. Brass in particular has to be tuned to the layout it is going to run on, which means you can get a model running on your layout, take it to a friends, and it will pick turnouts, short out on curves, and otherwise make you look bad. This is due to their being hand built, so even two of the same model are not exactly alike. It gets even more complicated if you're trying to run them around 22" or 18" radius curves.

There are more than a few on this forum who are trying to run 4-8-4's, six axle diesels, and 85 ft passenger cars around 18" radius curves with varying degrees of success. Most all of their frustartions come from a refusal to face reality and stick with 2-6-0's, 0-6-0's or 2-8-0's four axle diesels, and 60 foot passenger cars. I'm not dissing them, we all enjoy the hobby in our own way, but physics doesn't scale, and even if you can get the equipment around the curves it doesn't look great doing it.

If you do get into brass be very concious of your minimum radius. CJ once said that a brass model is the most expensive thing you will ever buy that's only 80% finished, and he wasn't thinking about paint Keep that in mind, and beware of being bitten by the brass bug. There is no antidote for the venom (the voice of experience )

Espeefan:

Truth be told I am deathly afraid of brass. My problem with it lies in myself. If it doesn't run top notch I will put it away and never look at it again. (after tinkering with it of course) Larger that life loco's are my passion, and I have more than a few loco's that will never see the light of day for various reasons. Don't get me wrong. I am not one to pull it out of the box and put it on the track and expect the clouds to part and a ray of light to shine on it as it goes around, but I will forever believe that my time is just as valuable as my money. [For I am King and my minions (trains) will do my bidding ]

Brass is the next logical step in my homemade empire, after extensive research and procrastinating. As far as radius, I think the smallest is something like 32" at the club. The venom is already creeping into my veins. I just fell my antidote will be the success or failure of my first attempt.

On another note: MTH IS sending me two new drive shafts in the mail. I should have them next week. It took some complaining and discussion but they finally fulfilled my request. Thank You MTH

 

[bigB]

Well think about it. We are paying a higher price by buying defective products. I have no problem paying a premium to get a good quality product made here in the US, and giving some Americans their jobs back.
QUOTE]

Unfortunately, most Americans are not informed consumers, nor do they want to take the time to become informed. They just want it cheap, cheap, cheap. In fact, they dont have the time to become informed bc we're all too busy working ourselves to death. Boooooo!

 

[Espeefan]

Brass is the next logical step in my homemade empire, after extensive research and procrastinating. As far as radius, I think the smallest is something like 32" at the club. The venom is already creeping into my veins. I just fell my antidote will be the success or failure of my first attempt.

Then my advice would be to be careful of what you buy.

Early models by Akane will be light on detail but run well. Models by Balboa and Westside are better detailed, and good runners. Early PFM or United models are great runners and well detailed, though some drives may be noisy. Late model PFM from Korea, and early Overland steamers are dicey. Production moved out of Japan and into Korea to keep costs down (sound familiar?) and the Koreans didn't know how to solder or assemble well in the early years of this. More recent Sunset models are good. Early ones are a crap shoot. Some are good runners, some not so much. To be successful with brass, you'll need to be a good tinkerer and have patience. I bought brass because of what I model. There aren't many plastic SP steamers now, and none when I started except the old Bachmann GS-4, whick couldn't pull itself let alone any kind of a reasonable train. Then there was the Rivarossi cab forward with Pizza cutter wheels. If I wanted accurate models, brass was the only way I was going to get them. These are the craftsman kits of the loco end of our hobby. A certain degree of mechanical skill is required, as well as knowing when to put the project down for the day and have a beer . It is possible to get them running excellently, but it may take a try or two. A 32" minimum radius will let you run just about anything, so that's a strong point in your favor. Bullett proof trackwork, if your club has it, will be another.

Good luck with it, and there are several of us here who can give advice if you need it.

 

[bnsf971]

I have noticed something that has been mentioned. If we go with brass gearing, it will almost certainly be noisy. Nylon or plastic gears are much quieter, but could wear out in short order if pulling a heavy train using a heavy locomotive.
My own standards are lower, and that is "10 cars is a train". Do we really need an SD70 that will pull 45 cars by itself? Where would we realistically run it? While it's cool to watch a Challenger or Big Boy lug a 120+ car train around, how often is it going to happen? I have some diesels that will pull over 35 cars each, but how big do you think my layout would have to be to use all that capacity? Maybe we should take a page from the prototype railroads, and de-rate units (removing weights or traction tires) to reduce maintenance. Many SD45s have been derated to 3200 hp, many SD50s have been derated to 3000 hp. Does that Proto SD45 have to weigh almost 2 pounds in order to pull my train around behind it? No.
I went down the "more weight is better" route with N scale a decade or more back, and while I was able to pull 3-5 more cars by packing weight into every orifice, I noticed I was wearing out the pickup shoes in the trucks that support the wheels. I removed the weight, reduced train length, and reduced the number of pickup shoes I had to replace.
Anyway, more is not always better.

 

[hamltnblue]

A challenger pulling a 120+ train does happen And it's fun to watch
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XhgHrDbN4EU

 

[blownoutcylinder]

That would be nice if they did come back to the states but, even American products are matching the quality of the Chinese now to save money.

Most, if not all, manufacturers have fallen into line of money/profit coming first and humans being only adjuncts to the money. What really is needed is a level of pride being put back into work so that people can be proud of what they have accomplished.

But as long as investors--be they private or public--see the billfold as coming first that ain't gonna happen any time soon

 

[hamltnblue]

Sometimes steamers take it easy and pull empties.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pl-QVxHIq6o&feature=related

 

[galaxy]

WELL! This is the first bad report on MTH I think I have seen!
Not only that the OP was kind enough to let us all know that they are 6 months behind in repairs!
As Selector said, they must have a lot of QC issues if it takes them 6 months to repair something that they "had a few" to repair.
I wonder if no one reports on them failing because they feel bad with a new paper weight on their hands that they paid a small fortune for.
Maybe the OP just lucked out and got one built on a monday or a friday!
I wish more people would report on the MTH failures as I think too many people think they are golden!
I figure cheaper locos like my Bachmann DCC OnBoard locos don't owe me much if they ever fail. SO far in 4 years they have not. They are good workers for what I need.
Also, while I have a very small pike, I only run trains 6-8-10 car lengths. I don't see any need to make my model train pull a 1002 car drag if it's gonna wear out the engine.
________
Nexium Lawsuites

 

[julienjj]

Its easy to know why there is not much report : Say you dislike a mth on the atlas forum and you get bashed, flamed, insulted and banned (oh, I forgot you also get the athearn fanboy tags)

its funny to note that the mth comes with mchenry coupler, wich i believe are owned by athearn

 

[diburning]

The Atlas forums should come with a warning: "May contain nuts"

On another note: MTH IS sending me two new drive shafts in the mail. I should have them next week. It took some complaining and discussion but they finally fulfilled my request. Thank You MTH

That's new. MTH usually asks you to send the model back because they don't trust you to tinker with it.

 

[julienjj]

Can you believe they dont want to tell me what each color coded wire do on their lightboard ? i want my rear ditch light to function on my sd70, so i will have to take it all apart. Obviously im a spy that want to copy their design...