New line of Brass Trains

[Tygrr]

I guess this is the best place to put this...

Two friends and I decided that quality Brass trains were just too freakin expensive, so we have decided to come out with a line of our own. The problem is .. I am into golden age steam, Doug likes transition era, and JJ likes modern diesel/electric. Since the cost of tooling and dies prohibits us from an initial offering of a dozen different types, we decided to ask you, the buyers, what you would like to see us come out with first. we were thinking of maybe 2 steam, 2 diesel, and 2 electric. At least that is * IF * you show enough interest in this project. I already have one retailer that will show our line, and I will be selling online.

One of the few things that we DO agree on is that they will have Kaydee couplers. Who do YOU, as users, think makes the best motors? Should we just offer them as DCC ready, or w/ the DCC installed? If with DCC, should it be w/ sound, and if so, soundtrax or QSI? Are there any other parts that you would prefer to see in them? Also .. what scale do most of you prefer?

We have done the research and determined that as long as we aren't trying to be greedy on price and profits, we can offer detail and running quality comparable to Marklin, MTH, Broadway Ltd loco's at a competitive price to their plastic loco's.

Are there any specific type of rolling stock you would like to see us come out with?

Since this will require a significant investment on our part, we are asking YOU what you want first; rather than just saying "this is what you are gonna get".

Any other suggestions will be appreciated and listened to!

I should do some kind of poll for this, but I don't know how to set it up on this forum.

Thanks in advance for your response/help with this project!

 

[RW&C]

Wish I had the tools to do this kind of thing. But then, I'd never get out of the basement.

DCC ready (plug and play) is probably the way to go, so long as there's a good space for a sound decoder installation. The sticker price on brass sets a lot of people off, and that's only going to increase with factory-installed DCC (plus, it'd be a pain for you guys to test all the functions/etc on each decoder). There are still people running DC; no sense alienating them, and so long as it's just a plug-in, the rest of us will roll with it.

HO's probably the most popular scale, and well suited to brass. I'd like to see something in N, but I suspect it's a smaller market.

I'd say stay away from the well-known engines, at least at first. If every major manufacturer already makes it, you'll have a hard time getting in. You might also want to start with something simple, as cool as it'd be to start off with an articulated or two.

Most of the brass I've seen is on larger engines. Why not do an industrial shunter type engine? There aren't many good ones in N. If it worked properly, and was well-priced... well, think of it this way, they're bite sized. Most people don't impulse-buy A-B-B-A sets, but there's always room for a "cute" little engine... and if it's a good runner, they'll consider you when they're in the market for something bigger.

Definitely go with Kaydees or Micro-Trains couplers installed. I dunno why anyone fools around with horn-hooks or Rapidos anymore. Five-pole skew wound can motors (with flywheels, of course) seem to be the standard; see what the other guys are using. Similarly, look at the problems with other manufacturer's locos (Life-Like's cracking gears, for instance) before you design yours.

Good luck with your venture, and keep us posted.

 

[ALCOS4EVER]

If you have the financial resources to offer even a limited line of brass locomotives the first question you have to ask yourselves is what do the people who really purchase brass locomotives want. In my experience most brass locomotives are purchased by collectors who only display them and do not operate them, not all but most. This used to be because they were very poor runners, but todays brass is of a much higher quality and performance and as a result price level. It also has a very low production quantity which keeps its value up over time. There is so much variety available today in high quality plastic locomotives from a large group of suppliers you are going to have to be very careful what you choose. You are also going to have to research what has already been offered in high quality brass so you don't duplicate it. My suggestion would be a large steam locomotive. Diesels have been done over and over and as much as I love electrics they are not as popular and because they weren't as many of the prototypes most of them have been offered in the past. As far as the options you should offer Kadees are a given, for a motor what are the top suppliers offering now and when it comes to DCC and sound for the price you are going to have to sell these at I think they will be expected, even if they are only for display. These are just one guys opinions, do your homework carefully and good luck.

 

[dave1905]

If you are worried about what type of couplers will go on the engines I fear you have no idea what you are getting into. The couplers are the least of your worries (plus you mispelled their name, its Kadee, not Kaydee).

Before you get really carried away, see if you can create a mechanism that operates smoothly. If it doesn't run it won't sell and you won't need to worry about whether its DCC ready or not. Start out with an 8 coupled steam engine bed, build one with all the valve gear and rodding.

 

[diburning]

Just to elaborate on what he said:

DCC ready (plug and play) is probably the way to go, so long as there's a good space for a sound decoder installation. The sticker price on brass sets a lot of people off, and that's only going to increase with factory-installed DCC (plus, it'd be a pain for you guys to test all the functions/etc on each decoder). There are still people running DC; no sense alienating them, and so long as it's just a plug-in, the rest of us will roll with it.

DCC ready is the way to go, since if it's not DCC ready, people who don't know how to isolate the frame and hardwire decoders (there are more of those people out there than you think!) will hesitate to buy the product.

Factory installed DCC or sound is also a no-go. There are those that only run DC, there are those that buy them as display pieces and will never use the decoder, and most people prefer a specific brand of decoder and will not be impressed with a brand that they usually don't use. You'd be adding costs to the product that the consumer may not want. Manufacturers put DCC and/or sound in plastic models because they also offer them without it. Brass is expensive. It does not make sense from an economic standpoint to offer both in brass as consumers will only buy one or the other, whereas in plastic, the consumer may buy one with sound, then maybe two other ones without for a neat consist. Brass is too expensive for people to do that, and steam, which you seem to want to start with, were rarely doubleheaded or run with more than one engine on the train unless they were doing it in a pinch or the train needed help or something.

HO's probably the most popular scale, and well suited to brass. I'd like to see something in N, but I suspect it's a smaller market.

For the best detail and size for collect-ability, HO is the scale to go.

I'd say stay away from the well-known engines, at least at first. If every major manufacturer already makes it, you'll have a hard time getting in. You might also want to start with something simple, as cool as it'd be to start off with an articulated or two.

Brass is expensive. If another manufacturer produces a loco, and you produce that same loco, consumers would have to pick one or the other, meaning that both manufacturers will have poor sales. Or, if the quality is very different, word of mouth will dictate which one is better which will be the one that people buy.

Most of the brass I've seen is on larger engines. Why not do an industrial shunter type engine? There aren't many good ones in N. If it worked properly, and was well-priced... well, think of it this way, they're bite sized. Most people don't impulse-buy A-B-B-A sets, but there's always room for a "cute" little engine... and if it's a good runner, they'll consider you when they're in the market for something bigger.

Again, don't do something that someone already produced and/or are still producing. With the price of brass, very few people can pay to collect every model out there, and even then, they would think twice before acquiring a duplicate model.

Definitely go with Kadees or Micro-Trains couplers installed. I dunno why anyone fools around with horn-hooks or Rapidos anymore. Five-pole skew wound can motors (with flywheels, of course) seem to be the standard; see what the other guys are using. Similarly, look at the problems with other manufacturer's locos (Life-Like's cracking gears, for instance) before you design yours.

Micro-Trains does not produce HO couplers. Kadee #5s or #58s are the way to go. If you decide to come up with your own couplers, make sure that they are metal and compatible with Kadee couplers or else the consumer will just replace them and chuck them. Also make the coupler pockets easy to get into as there are some out there that use Sergent Engineering couplers which are true to scale, but are incompatible with other brands.

With motors, a 12 volt five-pole skew wound can motors with flywheels are the way to go, I would suggest using motors from a Japanese manufacturer such as a Mashima, Sagami, or if at all possible, Kato. Also check the RPMs of the motors. Typical HO motors have RPMS between 10,000 and 15,000 RPMs. Any lower and the loco will have a lower top speed, any higher and the loco will have poor low speed performance. 11,000-12,000 seems to be the best.

With gears, the de-facto industry standard for diesels is 14:1. I'm not sure with steam since the size of the drivers are a factor. Metal gears are more durable, but can be noisy and will need to be lubricated more often. Plastic gears are less durable, but are quieter and need to be lubricated less often. Plastic gears are also less expensive from a production standpoint, and less expensive to the consumer should they ever need to be replaced.

 

[Dollie's Dad]

Interesting question....

You're probably going to get as many answers as there people willing to express an opinion. I really think there is a market for good brass, but not so much in diesels or electrics. The current manufacturers have that subject covered like a blanket. When you look at things like the coming Athearn release of the GP-7/9, with all the variants and detail options, the thoughts of doing something like that in brass are simply unrealistic. Therefore, I believe steam is still the most viable market for limited-production locomotives.

Just about everything has been done in brass at one time or another. Some of it has been really good, and some of it ---- well, not so good. The fact remains, however, that most people are probably going to buy only engines from their favorite roads.You're not going to see too many Pennsy engines on a Southern Pacific layout, and so forth. So if you do a specific engine, you can only expect a limited market.

But here's an idea: How about a somewhat generic steam engine that might have seen service on several railroads. I'm thinking of USRA engines specifically. For example, the Heavy Mikado served on several railroads, and there were almost a thousand of them in service. There were over 1,200 Light Mikados built. Other possibilities would be Harriman designed engines that ran on both SP an UP.

The important thing (IMHO) is selling an engine that runs well, that people can and will run on their layouts. For that reason, I would probably favor a medium sized loco because (again, IMHO) large steam engines look silly on typical home layout curves. I would want to see them easy to work on, adaptable, and possibly with different tender options, and the ability to easily convert to DCC and add sound.

That's my two cents worth.

Best of luck to you, whatever you decide to do.

 

[Rico]

You could also consider just doing shells that fit over other drives.
I know in some cases it may not be feasible but I think in most cases it could be done.
There may be some specialty cars that are needed, can't think of any just now. (big help, I know)
Plastic locos have come a long way since Tyco was the big competition for a good brass loco, it's a much smaller market than it once was IMO.

 

[Selector]

Here is my 2 cents worth, and I only own two hybrid brass steamers...no 'real' brass.

The big thing is a dependable drive assembly that can be un-coupled electrically by pulling on a couple of tabs, and one that can be inserted and screwed into place as a swap-out unit. You may need three for different locos/types/sizes. Remember, diesels will be different. Articulated steam will be different. But think modular for ease of replacement or cleaning.

These will be runners. Sunset models only produces QSI equipped runners, so he must have an idea that they are what are going to sell these days. DC still has a following, but very soon DCC with sound will be where the market is.

They'll need to be finished really well....well painted and decaled.

The market is crying out for non-USRA steam that isn't also a 80" drivered Northern or an articulated monster. That market is getting saturated between brass and plastic. Try a Harriman Pacific, a Hudson not of the NYC, or give Bachmann Spectrum a run on a large Consolidation, say from the IC.

Oh, and get firm orders.

 

[NYSW F45]

and while you guys are at it. Build a modern UP jordan spreader and snow flanger and i'll give you like $30 for it. LOL

 

[Toyguy]

If you go for DCC-ready, and I think you should, make it fully DCC-ready, with planned spaces for decoder mounting, speaker enclosure wells, speaker grating, etc. My biggest problem wiring in decoders is where to put the speaker.

As someone else mentioned, something better than those little tiny plugs for the tender to loco connection would be great. I hate those little nylon plugs.

 

[Rico]

You know I've been thinking, (I know you're scared now!) how about specialty items... spreaders as Steve mentioned, snow dozers, mow stuff, special multi wheeled flatcars with loads, maybe slugs...
Now those are things that might just do very well.

 

[Cjcrescent]

Interesting question....

You're probably going to get as many answers as there people willing to express an opinion. I really think there is a market for good brass, but not so much in diesels or electrics. The current manufacturers have that subject covered like a blanket. When you look at things like the coming Athearn release of the GP-7/9, with all the variants and detail options, the thoughts of doing something like that in brass are simply unrealistic. Therefore, I believe steam is still the most viable market for limited-production locomotives.

I have to agree with Tom here about the diesels. While the electrics aren't covered as much, probably due to the number of RR, that did use electrics, they do have manufacturers making them.

Just about everything has been done in brass at one time or another. Some of it has been really good, and some of it ---- well, not so good. The fact remains, however, that most people are probably going to buy only engines from their favorite roads.You're not going to see too many Pennsy engines on a Southern Pacific layout, and so forth. So if you do a specific engine, you can only expect a limited market.

I agree with most of what you say here Tom. I never met a steamer in brass that I could not make run like a Swiss watch. Granted the vast majority could get buy with just some tweaking, there have been very few that needed more. But I have to disagree that just about everything has been done in brass. There's too much variation, period. Example, Southern RR had only 3 classes of 4-6-0's and 5 classes of 2-8-0's. Only 1 loco in each wheel arrangement has been offered, and they are too different to be made into any of the other classes. The F class alone had 14 subclasses, of which the 1 offered loco is one of the smallest in the overall class.

But here's an idea: How about a somewhat generic steam engine that might have seen service on several railroads. I'm thinking of USRA engines specifically. For example, the Heavy Mikado served on several railroads, and there were almost a thousand of them in service. There were over 1,200 Light Mikados built. Other possibilities would be Harriman designed engines that ran on both SP an UP.

The USRA's and Harriman's would be just about the only series of steamers that could be considered as a standard loco. While the market did have two USRA engines built of plastic in the 90's, (Athearns light USRA 4-6-2 and 2-8-2) and there is USRA 2-8-2's available from a couple of others, (BLI, mth), a 2-10-2 and 4-8-2 from B'mann, there's still a shortage of the everyday engine most people saw working. These are the 2-8-0's and 4-6-0's that were built in their tens of thousands. While Bachmann has produced two types of 4-6-0 and a 2-8-0, I believe that this is where someone could do well to bring out several engines in these wheel arrangements. There have been hundreds of variations in these locos that have never seen the light of day, that IMHO could be great locos to bring out.

The important thing (IMHO) is selling an engine that runs well, that people can and will run on their layouts. For that reason, I would probably favor a medium sized loco because (again, IMHO) large steam engines look silly on typical home layout curves. I would want to see them easy to work on, adaptable, and possibly with different tender options, and the ability to easily convert to DCC and add sound.

That's my two cents worth.

Best of luck to you, whatever you decide to do.

100% in agreement. If it doesn't run well first off, it doesn't matter what it's prototype is.

 

[Dollie's Dad]

This is another problem with steam in general....a specific engine's appearance could change dramatically over its life. The shops did all sorts of things to them 'back in the day.' So, when they decide on an engine to sell, they have to pick a point in its career. It's also true of diesels, but to a lesser extent.

My answer was really based on the economics of producing a more generic engine that could be manufactured and sold in sufficient quantities to keep the price reasonable. Any competent manufacturer can produce a gorgeous model of a specific locomotive as it appeared on a certain date, but chances are it would not have a high demand, and the cost of producing it would put the price right up with all the other uber-expensive brass engines we're already familiar with.

 

[Dollie's Dad]

The USRA's and Harriman's would be just about the only series of steamers that could be considered as a standard loco. While the market did have two USRA engines built of plastic in the 90's, (Athearns light USRA 4-6-2 and 2-8-2) and there is USRA 2-8-2's available from a couple of others, (BLI, mth), a 2-10-2 and 4-8-2 from B'mann, there's still a shortage of the everyday engine most people saw working. These are the 2-8-0's and 4-6-0's that were built in their tens of thousands. While Bachmann has produced two types of 4-6-0 and a 2-8-0, I believe that this is where someone could do well to bring out several engines in these wheel arrangements. There have been hundreds of variations in these locos that have never seen the light of day, that IMHO could be great locos to bring out.

And these smaller engines are the ones that look best running on most home layouts with tighter radii and shorter consists.

We're thinking alike.

 

[Cjcrescent]

And these smaller engines are the ones that look best running on most home layouts with tighter radii and shorter consists.

We're thinking alike.

I agree completely!

Back in the 1970's, NWSL offered what they called their basic engines. These were 4-4-0's and 2-6-0's that came with a a non-detailed boiler and tender. There were domes and a stack, & cab, but other than that, all other detail was to be put on the engine by the modeler. There were IIRC, several boiler configurations available for them.

They were imported under the "Far East Distributors" label, but they were pure NWSL. Something like that, except in a 4-6-0, 2-8-0 and maybe a 4-6-2 and 2-8-2 may just fly. You still occasionally see them on E-bay.

Watyathink??

 

[Selector]

There is one other consideration that occasionally creeps into discussions such as these, and that is the matter of tractive effort. The spiffiest, gosh-darnedest brass, diecast, or plastic engine that can't pull its own shadow is going to kill your enterprise if you get it going at all.

You either need a well-engineered suspension system for maximum adhesion, or you need a superior weight internally, or both. Why the industry doesn't charge another $12/locomotive so that they could include a tungsten alloy frame with another 25-30% weight is beyond me. Even encased lead would be better than what is available most often.

 

[funnelfan]

No matter what anyone else says, there is only one engine that I can think of that would be a guaranteed best seller in brass or plastic if made into a decent model. The first examples were built before 1900 and were built by the hundreds and used all around the US. They continue to operate even today as two are still used to haul excursions trains, and are famous in their own rights. There are are also several examples sitting on display in parks and elsewhere. In their heydays of the 1920's they were crawling all around the woods as logging locos, and as shortlines and industrial railroads. They were the GP9's of the steam era.

What steam locomotive could possibly be so popular? Why the Baldwin 90 ton 2-8-2. The best known examples are the Yreka Western #19, the CC&C #15, the ex-Polson #90 at Garibaldi, OR, and the Georgia Pacific engine at Corvallis, OR, but there are several more.

 

[Charles Smiley]

QUOTING Rico: "You could also consider just doing shells that fit over other drives."

Boy, I really agree with that! Use Stewart or Atlas diesel drives. Take advantage of someone else's engineering of drive units. Plus, repair parts will be available for a long time.

I repowered several brass diesels that way and they are way better than they were with the plastic shells.

 

[Espeefan]

Because no importer wants to pay to ship lead! It's too easy to add after the fact. Now if you go after 70's and 80's brass like the old Westsides, you'll get decent weight in a model. After that, not so much. OTOH, I bought a nice little brass 2-6-0 from Sunset models last year that pulls quite well, and can handle layout size trains very nicely. Not many on this forum will be spending $1750-2000.00 for a model, but the new stuff from Boo-Rim being brought in by Glacier Park is reputed to run and pull well.

You'll always have some issues with steam, because you've usually got just one powered axle, versus 4 or 6 in a diesel model, so you'll need some additional weight, and maybe some Bullfrog Snot. Working suspension? Been tried. Here's the problem: Physics doesn't scale! I have some very good steam pullers that don't even have sprung drivers. Plus you have to keep weight off of lead and trailing trucks in order to avoid decreasing weight over the drivers.

Brass is and will remain a tinkerer's market, unless you're just a collector who wants to display, otherwise they have to be tuned to your layout.

What to bring in? I'd have to agree on USRA and Harriman designs. Smaller layout quality models are in shoprt supply. We have too many artuiculateds and Northerns. Electrics would be great. I'd buy a nice steeple cab right now if one were available. Your market per model usually runs about $150,000.00. That's 150 thousand dollar models, or 1500 hundred dollar models. Brass importers figured this one out a long time ago, and that's why you see most importers taking reservations. If you don't reserve one, chances are you won't be getting one. Even a few sitting on the shelf will kill your profit!

It's a tough market to get into!

You either need a well-engineered suspension system for maximum adhesion, or you need a superior weight internally, or both. Why the industry doesn't charge another $12/locomotive so that they could include a tungsten alloy frame with another 25-30% weight is beyond me. Even encased lead would be better than what is available most often.

 

[diburning]

Because no importer wants to pay to ship lead! It's too easy to add after the fact.

This is why Walthers cars are all underweight and are trash out of the box. They don't want to pay to install the grab irons or add sufficient weight to them. Normally, I wouldn't complain, but at the prices that Walthers charges for their cars, I expect them to be properly weighted and have all of the grabs installed (why should I pay $27 for a Walthers tank car that is underweight and needs grabs installed and painted when I can buy an Atlas tank car for $20-25 that comes with sufficient weight and factory installed grabs? Or even better yet, an Athearn tank car with etched metal walkways, Intermountain style metal wheels, sufficient weight, wire grabs and ladders, AND the placards factory printed on for $15? The weights cost money and the paint costs money since I would never buy that color of paint otherwise. If I am to do all of that, I'd rather pay for a damn kit for $10 or less rather than buy a Walthers car for 3x as much!)

I have... about 200 cars right now. About 10 of them are Walthers cars, most of which I had to add weight to. (The well cars are made of metal so they are sufficiently weighted, the tank cars all needed weight, the autoracks seem fine without added weight, the front runner is underweight and needed weight addded to the trailer, and the Bethgons weighed less than half of what they should weigh)

So, make sure that your locos and cars are sufficiently weighted. It DOES make a difference. People have been complaining about Athearn's SD70ACes being too light as well.

If you're trying to make money, then it may be in your best interest to create a superior product.