New line of Brass Trains


I don't know about that Eric. I looked online and found similar prices between the Walthers Goldline stuff and Atlas, with Atlas in most cases slightly more expensive. This is MSRP of course, and nobody pays that unless they have to have something and don't want to risk a sellout. Gold Line and Atlas have comparable detail levels. Their (Walthers) passenger cars are now coming with grabs installed. All my "City" cars had them on, and none had weight issues.

There might be "New Old" stock out there with these issues, but both companies' current offerings are pretty close from what I have seen.

in any case, the brass world is a bit different. They aren't mass produced models
 
I was comparing both manufacturer's old stock. Old stock Atlas tank cars retailed for $20-25, old stock Walthers tank cars retailed for $28. With a discount, there's still a price difference.

Walthers is STILL selling those POS cars that need weight and grabs. The new passenger cars have the grabs installed, but have you seen the price tag on those lately? There have also been reports on those cars having derailment problems (because the trucks are mounted off-center and because the cars are too light). Same junk, new price.

Since brass are not mass produced models, then the production costs are higher and the manufacturer is more tempted to cut costs. Shipping is one of the major costs, so manufacturers are tempted to leave out weight. However, weight shouldn't be a huge issue since the brass body of the locomotive should add a considerable amount of weight.

With plastic, Walthers is not the only one doing this. Bowser is doing it as well.
 
I was comparing both manufacturer's old stock. Old stock Atlas tank cars retailed for $20-25, old stock Walthers tank cars retailed for $28. With a discount, there's still a price difference.

So this is an old problem. I haven't run into any Walthers freight cars lately that needed grabs added

Walthers is STILL selling those POS cars that need weight and grabs. The new passenger cars have the grabs installed, but have you seen the price tag on those lately? There have also been reports on those cars having derailment problems (because the trucks are mounted off-center and because the cars are too light). Same junk, new price.

$64.98 each. Athearn's new Genesis coach is $69.98, The Branchline assembled cars are around $60.00, BLI's new Daylight cars are $74.99, and MTH's are in the $60.00 range. They're all within a few bucks of each other. If you want an accurate model and not a foobie, this is what you're going to pay. I have many Walthers passenger cars, starting with their Super Chief train, lots of heavyweights, various other cars which I assembled into a 1941 Lark (it runs with brass cars mixed in), and the City of LA. I have had no weight issues. They run fine as long as you don't try and force them around 18" radius curves. The box says minimum 24" radius. Some might go 22" but you may have to do surgery on the floors to get them to do this reliably. I've had to re-square some trucks here & there, and had a bolster screw too tight once in a while. At our club I can run prototypical length trains (19-21 cars for the Lark, 12 for the Super Chief, and 14 or more for the COLA. Another member has a 22 car City of Everywhere he pulls with 5 E units. He has never had problems either. Walthers had some early issues with floors and trucks, but those issues are long resolved.

Since brass are not mass produced models, then the production costs are higher and the manufacturer is more tempted to cut costs. Shipping is one of the major costs, so manufacturers are tempted to leave out weight. However, weight shouldn't be a huge issue since the brass body of the locomotive should add a considerable amount of weight.

OK really not trying to be snarky here, but you haven't bought much brass lately have you? The cost of making those models is so high that saving that little bit of weight won't matter much. Shipping is governed by cubic footage more than weight. I've loaded and shipped 40 foot containers with equipment, and they don't care how much it weighs as long as it's within the container's rated weight. Not a problem for our models. My last purchase, as I said earlier was a little SP Mogul. It was adequately weighted, and there was very little room in the boiler for anything else. Current imports actually pull pretty well, though these are lots of 1980's vintage Sunset Models Prestige Series and Overland models out there with insufficient weight. They can also be had at relatively cheap prices, which makes fixing them up not that big a deal.

With plastic, Walthers is not the only one doing this. Bowser is doing it as well.

Thing is, it's so easy to add weight. Put a load on a flat car or in a gon. some BBs in a hopper under the coal or whatever load, or those replacement side weights. Thinking about things, manufacturers may just be trying to hit a price point. All of those old Athearn BB's were under weight too.
 
OK really not trying to be snarky here, but you haven't bought much brass lately have you? The cost of making those models is so high that saving that little bit of weight won't matter much. Shipping is governed by cubic footage more than weight. I've loaded and shipped 40 foot containers with equipment, and they don't care how much it weighs as long as it's within the container's rated weight. Not a problem for our models. My last purchase, as I said earlier was a little SP Mogul. It was adequately weighted, and there was very little room in the boiler for anything else. Current imports actually pull pretty well, though these are lots of 1980's vintage Sunset Models Prestige Series and Overland models out there with insufficient weight. They can also be had at relatively cheap prices, which makes fixing them up not that big a deal.

That's not what I meant. I meant that they are trying to save money on ground shipping from the dock to the distributor, and to the customer if they order direct. You'd be surprised at how far companies will go to cut costs. And yes, I have bought brass lately.

Thing is, it's so easy to add weight. Put a load on a flat car or in a gon. some BBs in a hopper under the coal or whatever load, or those replacement side weights. Thinking about things, manufacturers may just be trying to hit a price point. All of those old Athearn BB's were under weight too.

Not all of the BBs are underweight, but most of them. (I bought a BB Yreka Western box car that was right on the money.) My point is that it's more justifiable for a cheap kit such as an Athearn BB to be underweight, but is ridiculous for a $30 car that's not a kit to be underweight. If Accurail can sell kits for 10 bucks and have sufficient weight, then the manufacturer of the $30 car which needs grabs and extra weight installed is being cheap.

Also, I have had Walthers passenger cars before. The 6-axle trucks are mounted off-center and the cars are underweight so that the third and fourth axles don't touch the rail. They derail on straight track at switches. The Athearn RTR (not genesis) are the same.
 
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Actually, I can see using under-weight as a selling point: shipped light to save you money!

If it was something significant ($5-10 and up), and the weight wasn't that hard to add, I'd totally go for that, so long as the manufacturer was up-front about it.

If it scales out to just a few cents per unit, just make the packaging lighter. :)
 
Yes, but if you had the choice of getting a car for $30, would you choose an underweight car where you need to add grabs, or a car that has amazing detail, all parts installed, and is properly weighted out of the box?

If the Walthers cars were LESS expensive (ie they pass the savings on to us) then I wouldn't have as much of a problem with them.
 
Wow... I'm really enjoying reading all the brainstorming you guys are doing!:)

As far as I know, nobody makes brass "critters". How about a little brass Mack 15 ton industrial diesel locomotive... ;)

269aed4d.jpg


A simple little brass shell on a standard reliable readily available Bachmann 44ton powered truck. :)

That's the only idea I can offer... because the only engines I have are all critters. :rolleyes:

Greg
 
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I think that those trucks are discontinued and Kader/Bachmann have a bunch left over for spare parts since the 44-tonner uses a single motor now.
 
reading your responses (pls keep it up!)

Sigh .. I just spent an hour quoting and responding to the many great suggestions, was about to hit "submit", and the computer crashed. This attempt I will be a LOT briefer, sorry.

What I, and my partners have gathered is: a well built, GOOD running, good pulling, DCC ready, with a LOT of holes drilled in the tender floor/base for speaker mounting 0-6-0, a 4-6-0, and a 2-8-2 in HO would be a good starting line up. The idea of a "snap on" body is something we had discussed, and our Engineer (factory, not train .. lol) said in diesel, maybe even in electric could be done relatively inexpensively, in both HO and N scales; steam is another matter, we might be able to have them retail for under $350 for a generic snap on. Who's frame/motor should they be built for? Is a brass body and details, on another frame/motor, considered a brass train, or a hybrid? No matter what we do, the question now is: in what road names? Or should we offer a generic un-decorated line? We all really like the idea of specialty cars and maybe some unique "critters" as an immediate follow up if this project looks like it is going to work (ie: we aren't losing money doing this)

PLEASE keep up your great suggestions .. we ARE reading, and discussing them! Thanks again! :)
 
Overland made powered diesel frames/chassis for kit shells, and Stewart Hobbies makes F-unit chassis for other shells.

Now, I'm not entirely sure as to what the costs are, but it may be in your best interest to come up with your own design (to be honest, everyone uses the can motor with flywheels, and mechanical linkages to a worm gear that drives a gear tower on a truck or the entire gearcase on a steamer. All of this is based on the original Athearn Blue Box kit design and is the industry standard today) It may cost less to buy the motors, produce your own drivetrain that is standard throughout all your models to cut costs and to provide consistency. If I bought model A from you and I can't run it with model B also made by you, then I may think twice before buying any of your products. It may cost less to do it all yourself than it is to acquire a license or to buy someone else's chassis.

As I've said before, a 14:1 gear ratio for diesels is optimal and is the de-facto standard, the motor should have an RPM rating of 11,000 to 15,000 RPM at 12 volts, and as for decorated vs undecorated models, it may be a good idea to do both.

Since the industry considers the hobby to be unstable (which couldn't be further from the truth) they either produce items in limited quantities, or use a pre-order system to gauge interest in a particular model. Brass tends to go the limited quantities route, while plastic uses the pre-order system. It's not ideal for consumers, but it does help the manufacturers stay in good financial standing by not overproducing models that either don't sell or take too long to sell due to low demand.

I'm curious, where is the factory located? Is it one that already manufactures brass trains or will this be a new "experience" for them?
 
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India .. new experience. They wish to compete w/ China .. and tell me that they can give me MUCH better quality control, at a better price. The Chassie is the cheapest part of the production. Your posts re: engines, were one of my quotes and responses that got lost .. sigh, but we DID listen and are checking out 12,000 rpm motors for 100 and 500 lot pricing and we have pretty much decided on delryn gears.
 
We have checked out some of their other work/examples, and have no worries about the detail .. BUT .. big but, the assembly, correct assembly of the drive rods, connectors, etc is what is worrying me.
 
I think that those trucks are discontinued and Kader/Bachmann have a bunch left over for spare parts since the 44-tonner uses a single motor now.

Sad to hear that, burn... the spare parts trucks are at least still available.

Greg
 
Here's another suggestion for a brass diesel critter...

$(KGrHqZ,!h4E2JCqKde5BNqKcgDnGg~~0_3.JPG


This discontinued Roundhouse EMD 40 just sold on ebay for $133!... and it's just PLASTIC! :eek:
The bidding went absolutely insane. I tell you the market niche for critters is wide open... because NOBODY makes them. I was lucky to get this Roundhouse for $60 off ebay just 8 months ago...
IMG_4757.jpg


While I'm not into brass... I do believe that brass collectors would really go for critters if you made them available...

...simply because no one else does.

Greg
 
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I really think there is a market for good brass, but not so much in diesels or electrics. The current manufacturers have that subject covered like a blanket.

as much as I love electrics they are not as popular and because they weren't as many of the prototypes most of them have been offered in the past.


I guess i'll have to Lobby for electrics.

As much as some electrics have been offered, most, to put it bluntly are terrible ugly wastes of money.

If you could make something that works and looks right, you'd be a step ahead. I know E44s are in demand, because i have a trio of the Alpha Brass E44As, and every time i bring them to meets, i get at least ten people asking about where they can get them.

Alpha made a small batch (50 units i think) of high quality units in the late 80s and then they tanked. Alco Models made some in the late 60s, but these are a joke.

There are constant demands for E44s out there, and if you built a small run at a reasonable price, you could probably make money doing it.

Diesels aren't necessarily well covered either.

Many of the commuter diesels remain unrepresented in HO scale. A good example are all the GP40-based commuter engines operating in the Northeast. Other than an OMI run of $700 NJ Transit painted GP40PH-2s (which was very small and almost entirely gobbled up), there has been no effort by any company, in either brass or plastic, to represent these engines (the Atlas NJT GP40s are actual GP40-2 work engines, not stand ins).

Meanwhile, The GP40PH-2 is operated in its "NJT" form by CDOT, VRE, and others. MARC and MBTA operate wide cab versions, but the long hoods are exactly the same with very little variation (indeed, even the vents on the radiator doors appear to match).



just my thoughts.
 
That's not what I meant. I meant that they are trying to save money on ground shipping from the dock to the distributor, and to the customer if they order direct. You'd be surprised at how far companies will go to cut costs. And yes, I have bought brass lately.

The dock to distributor costs are typically built into the unit cost. From the distributor to us, we pay. You might have a point here but I can't imagine this portion of shipping costs having that big of an effect on cost savings.

What model did you recently buy?



Not all of the BBs are underweight, but most of them. (I bought a BB Yreka Western box car that was right on the money.) My point is that it's more justifiable for a cheap kit such as an Athearn BB to be underweight, but is ridiculous for a $30 car that's not a kit to be underweight. If Accurail can sell kits for 10 bucks and have sufficient weight, then the manufacturer of the $30 car which needs grabs and extra weight installed is being cheap.

Also, I have had Walthers passenger cars before. The 6-axle trucks are mounted off-center and the cars are underweight so that the third and fourth axles don't touch the rail. They derail on straight track at switches. The Athearn RTR (not genesis) are the same.

Maybe so, but those cheap kits were mainstream offerings in their day. Much like the current $30.00 stuff is today. I don't know if anyone has indexed these prices for inflation or percentage of income spent, but I'll bet that those numbers haven't moved much.

Have you tried re-squaring the trucks? Take them off, loosen the four screws, set the truck on a piece of track on a flat & stable surface, use a small square to align them, then tighten the screws. I have not had to do this much, maybe 10% of the time at the very most. I have about 55 of these cars bought from 2006 until the present, so I'd say they represent a pretty fair cross section of what Walthers has done. Next questions...what's your minimum radius, and how's your trackwork? These things don't like smaller layouts with tighter radii and they really hate vertical curves, especially in conjunction with the tight radius curves. Our club track is pretty bullet proof, so I'm lucky there.
 
I'd lobby for a Harriman 2-8-0, and for a nice steeple cab electric. Interurbans are also under represented. They have mostly been done in brass so far. The trolley crowd will snap up a good model of a steeple cab. I saw an MTS Sacramento Northern Steeple cab go for over $800.00 on the bay not long ago, nearly twice it's original price. Way out of my league at the moment :D
 
India .. new experience. They wish to compete w/ China .. and tell me that they can give me MUCH better quality control, at a better price. The Chassie is the cheapest part of the production. Your posts re: engines, were one of my quotes and responses that got lost .. sigh, but we DID listen and are checking out 12,000 rpm motors for 100 and 500 lot pricing and we have pretty much decided on delryn gears.

Well, let history be an example. The Chinese factories have been having quality control issues lately (they've also been doing things like substituting materials to save money without notifying the contract holder). MTH went to Thailand to have their Protosound boards made, and those were very flaky.

In my experience working in the field of IT, all of the IT jobs outsourced to India come back to the states. Why? Over the phone, the Indians claim that they can do everything. Once they get off the phone, they ask each other what they should do, then do a sub-par job which then ends up being fixed here in the states. I'm not saying all of India's industries are like that, but it may be a reason why there isn't large scale manufacturing there compared to China.

As for the drive linkages, going standard is key. These days, ALL modern HO manufacturers use some variation of the T-Ball joint shaft. It's a shaft with a T on the end, and a ball on the body of the T that snaps into a socket and the "fingers" of the T turn the socket as transmission from the motor.

The old style universal U-joints have been "retired" as old technology.

The T-Ball joint is used by ALL manufacturers. Atlas, Bachmann, and Walthers use the double ended T-Ball with sockets on both the flywheel and the gear tower.
upgrade_walthersHO-SW-1.gif

6230X-6030.jpg


Athearn and Kato use a variation of the T-Ball joint in which the flywheel end is keyed for the hex end of the shaft, but the other end of the shaft that goes into the gear tower is still the T-Ball joint.

L48060.jpg


And yes, even brass (this is an Overland model) uses the T-Ball joint. Look at the right side of this photo

upgrade-Overland-AJIN-1.jpg

(shown in the photo is the NWSL regearing kit but if you look at the old shaft, there's a blue socket for the T-Ball joint)

Also, as a brass manufacturer, being true to detail is key. The older brass models had details that weren't quite correct. For example, some diesel models had stanchions that had an L shape mount so that they were mounted to the pilot instead of the deck like the prototype. Some people don't mind, but some others like me, absolutely hate it. So, I'd suggest that you do the research into which details go where and be true to the prototype. If necessary and possible, call up a few railroads and see if they will let you onto their property to take measurements. Getting ahold of the blueprints may help as well.

Ditch lights. Modern diesels have ditch lights. Most manufacturers don't put them in due to tooling costs, but with brass models, it's a pain to drill out the brass to put in lighted ditch lights. It's also a good idea to have a complete lighting package on the model.

Other details such as fans and grills should be etched metal and see-thru. Older brass models didn't have them and thats why I don't buy them. See-through fans and grills are standard on plastic models (not the low end ones though) today so people would expect a brass model to have the same.

Another suggestion for diesels is the GP38-2. Yes, the plastic market is saturated with them, but no one makes a decent one. There may be a market for a correct GP38-2. In plastic, Athearn, Walthers Proto, and Atlas all make the GP38-2. The Athearn uses stone-age tooling with no see-thru fans and uses a single light bulb, the Walthers Proto is incorrect dimensionally, and has an odd gear ratio, and the Atlas is in their Trainman line which is meant for trainsets and it also has dimensional inaccuracies.

The GP38-2 was a popular locomotive model (the prototype, not the scale model) so you would have very many roadnames to choose from.
 
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