Looking for a more detailed GORRE & DAPHETID RR Trackplan.

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Active Member
I found The Gorre & Daphetid RR online and i think id like to build it with some minor changes. But, i cant find a detailed trackplan. By detailed i mean it tells me what turnout size, curve radius, ect.

Thanks for any help at all.


play every day
Hi little, :)

I found an original G&D plan drawn by John Allen...


To magnify it, just hold down the CTRL key while turning your mouse wheel. He denotes all the curve radii and grades. Or better yet, here's a link to a larger pic...


(of course, I'm assuming you don't mean the big G&D...;) )


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Well-Known Member
The book "Model Railroading With John Allen" will tell you everything you ever wanted to know about the G&D, both the big one and the little one. It's out of print right now, but copies show up on e-Bay from time to time. Also, RMC ran a great series on John, not to mention all of the stuff MR did. if you belong the the NMRA you can get a printout of every articel on the GD ever done anywhere, and they'll copy them for you for a small fee. This is a really useful service and I've used it a couple of times.


Active Member
Thanks guys, i see some 16 and 14in radius curves and those are huge problems, i really need to keep it as a minimum of 18in.


Well-Known Member
Well, yes but as you can see, the dimensions overall are 3'-7" x 6'-8". You could try the layout with 18' and 22' Radii and see how much extra room you'd need. Probably not much.


Well-Known Member
I found The Gorre & Daphetid RR online and i think id like to build it with some minor changes. But, i cant find a detailed trackplan. By detailed i mean it tells me what turnout size, curve radius, ect.
My small N-scale model railroad is based on the original G&D track plan. I have looked at several versions of the G&D plan and have never seen any reference to the turnout numbers. From my experience in building my layout, I can say that the turnouts on the original G&D are tight, smaller than #5 in some cases.

I enlarged the plan a bit to accommodate broader curves and off-the-shelf turnouts.

- Jeff


G&D Lines

Just a bit of mostly useless information-- BUT, I just found a used mag at an LHS in Phoenix, AZ. The HO Monthly, Feb. 1950, has an article by John Allen "Meandering about the GD Line". Five pages with lots of close-up pics of the original layout.

I had the pleasure of visiting the layout in 1965. John was gracious if not a bit etcentric - NO flash pictures (this with KodaChrome asa 12 film),-- nobody but John touches the train,-- a bump of a hump approaching a stop making you add throtle going up but backing off before the top or you over-run the stop. An awsome experience for our club.

Armchair aka Glen from Yuma, AZ operating the4'x4' Camp Swampy RR. Location of the U.S. Army National Railway Test Facility


Thanks for the help so far, im considering this one because it seems to have broader curves.


Outer loop is about 22" radius. Inner loop is quite a bit smaller than that - probably around 18" radius.

How much space do you have available for a layout?

If you can occupy e.g. 8 x 8 foot for the layout (you will need 10x8 foot, including aisles for a 4x8 - but the aisles can also be used to pass by the layout), you can e.g. do Scott Perry's classic Heart of Georgia beginner layout, which allows you to do four visually separate scenes - up, left, down, right, with 26-27" radius curves: http://hogrr.blogspot.com/



Master Mechanic
I found The Gorre & Daphetid RR online and i think id like to build it with some minor changes. But, i cant find a detailed trackplan. By detailed i mean it tells me what turnout size, curve radius, ect.

Thanks for any help at all.

Kalmbach's original track plan book "101 trackplans for Model Railroaders" by Lynn Westcott, has an "updated" copy of the trackplan stretched to fit on a 4x8. You may want to see if you can either get the book, or have someone scan you a copy.


New Member
I'm looking for details on the Gorre and Daphetid "final layout - that being the 3rd one that was destroyed by fire". I'd appreciate any help/direction on where I should be "looking" for others who may wish to discuss this layout on "modelrailroadforums".

I've obtained the copywrited track plan from TrainPlayer software, and I've studied the ".jpg" photographs available on-line at several sites. I "thought" that I had come across a G&D layout depiction that somehow had integrated the .jpg drawings with the layout. Since then I've spent several days looking for that website to no avail. So this is another avenue that I am trying to re-discover.

I would also very much like to discuss the layout with anyone who had the priviledge of literally seeing it. I'm new to forums such as this, so please bear with me as I learn to communicate properly. Thank you for your time.


New Member
Thanks, Jeff. Yes, I've been through the sites you mentioned.

Right now I am working at correlating the .jpg photos on "gdlines.com" with the track plans that I've found. This has been really helpful for me.

I've also found some track plans with elevations. I'd like to find more elevation information, and am working that avenue too.

I've also rounded up:

- MR's Information Station pamphlet entitled "John Allen's Gorre & Daphetid"
- MR, Jan 1969, magazine with 12-page spread entitled "Local Passenger Train over
the Gorre & Daphetid". In the article, John Allen takes the reader through a
"trip" over the entire road with many photographs and descriptions.
- RMC, Jan 1972, magazine with John Allen's article, "25th Anniversary of the G & D
- MR, Jan 1989, magazine with John Allen and his G&D line recognized as one of the
"Legendary Layouts and the Men who built Them"

I've noticed that the photos on "gdlines.com" do not include the "MR" photos. I suspect that this may be due to copywrite issues.

Those are the photographs and publications that I've found so far. I see that Mr. Wescott's book about John Allen & the G&D has recently been re-printed. I hope to be able to purchase that soon. Also, I've found the construction drawings on "gdlines.com" to be a real help in showing the "bones" of the layout structure.

I'll continue correlating this information, and gleaning more from these websites (they do contain a lot of information that I have not mentioned).

I'm working on "translating" a .bmp track plan image that I've exported from "TrainPlayer" software into a draft drawing. I have been using a compass, scale and divider to then translate the drawing into a digital representation (with documented dimensions) using TrkCAD4 software. The .bmp file shows the "centers" for each curve, but there are many such "centers" and it's been a trial to correlate those center crosses with their respective curves. So far, I've transcribed the overall main line onto TrkCAD4. I haven't addressed any turnouts, sidings or the round houses and turntables yet. TrkCAD has also permitted me to convert the HO layout to N-scale (I haven't the room for HO-scale). So I've been able to reduce the layout from 27' X 32' to 15' X 23'.

I could never attempt to emulate Mr. Allen's floor to ceiling layout. With N-scale, I should be able to reduce all elevations roughly in half as well. So, that's where I'm at right now.

At this writing, I'm considering making a 1/3 scale mock-up of the N-scale layout to try to ensure that I really understand all that Mr. Allen's done before I determine whether it's practical to proceed further. With the N-scale layout's being 23' X 15', I believe that I can layout most of a 1/3-scale model onto a 4' X 8' OSB platform. I should be able to print out the 1/3-scale plan from XTrkCAD, and just tape the 8.5" X 11" pages onto the OSB.

I've never made a scale layout model before, but from what I've read it appears to be a wise course before considering taking on a project of this magnitude. This is probably more than you wanted to read, Jeff, but I didn't want to waste your time on guessing where I'm at so far.

Thank you for the references. I appreciate your time.



Master Mechanic

Like me you are obviously a fan of John Allen. I don't know if you've seen these pics or not. They are pictures of the layout after the fire.

Very sad.


I believe that the person in the picture is a member of the family that bought the house, rebuilt it and moved in after the rebuild was completed. I don't know if they are still there are not. But it is nice to know that at least the house was salvaged, even thou the layout was a total loss.
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Active Member
Gorre and Dapheti:d

To find the Gorre & Daphetid in Yahoo Groups here's the link to their search:
Type in "GandD" in the search box then click on 1st one. You'll have to join but it's free.
There's a ton of info on the G&D on this site so give yourself plenty of time to go thru it all! And "The Book" has been or will be reprinted.
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New Member

I can still remember the first time that I saw a spread on the G&D in a "MR" magazine many years ago. I showed the article to Dad, and he knew that layout the moment that he laid eyes on it. He was the first person to explain to me that its name was pronounced "Gory and Defeated".

Thank you for sharing the pictures. I read that after the fire, with the family's permission, some of Mr. Allen's friends attempted to recover a portion of the layout. Unfortunately, the layout's structure had been built into the basement in such a way that the section could not be recovered intact, so they were forced to give up.

Regardless, the G&D will live on thanks to the many historical model RR publications and the comprehensive photographic record that Mr. Allen left us. I am convinced that many of the methods that Mr. Allen pioneered on the G&D and his excellent photographic techniques have and will continue to influence model railroading for years to come.

He once commented in his later years that it was a tribute to the hobby's quality, scope and diversity that he had remained engaged and interested in it throughout his entire adult life. John Allen often wrote that the purpose for model railroading was to have fun.

Yeah, I am a fan, and model railroading is fun.



New Member
Thanks for the reference, Andy. I intend to begin reviewing that yahoo website very soon. These past few days, I've taken a much closer look at the
website that Jeff shared. Some of the references that I've found on the "mac.com" website seem to have been taken from the efforts of that yahoo group and its contributors. I hope to begin reading those yahoo records soon.

I really appreciate everyone's suggestions and the information that you have so freely shared. Please keep them coming.

Thank you,


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