Loco's and cold, do they mix?

[JimInMichigan]

If I build my layout in the polebarn, it wont be heated unless I'm in there. Can the engines be run in freezing weather? Even if I heat up the barn an hour before I go out, the engines will still be cold, I'd imagine.

What about heat from the motors and the cold metal parts around them?

 

[NH Mike]

Electrically you shouldn't have a problem other than perhaps oxidation on the rails from varying temp and moisture changes causing condensation. The big problem will be with lubricants. All oils will thicken as they get colder and this will cause dragging of the lubed parts and higher torque loads on the motors and drive lines. Locos with grease used for a lube, Bachmann for one, will be the worst.

Why not bring the locos into the house when not in use?

Could be worse I suppose. You could live in the YOOP with 11 months of Winter and 30 days of chickito season.

 

[JimInMichigan]

Yea, I could bring the engines in when not in use. But that could become a pain real quick.

 

[Larry]

I've had my layout in a metal building w/no insulation for about 12 years. I know I live in Florida & yes it got down to 14 degree's last year for about 3 days. I have a gas heater for winter & 5 big fans for summer. I've never had any problems w/any of my engines in either temps. I clean all of my track about once a month real good & use masonite strips under boxcars the rest of the time. I have a mix of NS(95% NS) & Brass track w/no more problems than anyone else has on an indoor layout. I also clean the wheels on all my loco's at least every 3 or 4 months or when needed. I have over 600ft. of track on a 24 by 36ft. layout.

 

[RexHea]

Jim, I agree with Mike that probably only the lubes will thicken up causing your locos to be a bit stiff in the beginning. Should be fine in a jiffy after your room heats and you run them. I wouldn't think that this would be too serious, even with your temps.
Just remember to use grease on gears sparingly and only a good brand like Labelle

 

[NYW&B]

Jim - Assuming that you are indeed in Michigan, as your screen name implies, and your layout will be situated in a normally unheated pole barn, I'm going to go against the general trend of advice offered so far.

In my opinion, the huge range in temperature and humidity in your locale potentially could create some very significant problems. First off, depending on humidity sources within and without the building, particularly during winter and springtime when going from extreme cold and dampness, to heated, then back to extreme cold, is likely to produce highly significant condensation over time. Then, too, there is the expansion/contraction cycle, particularly between differing metals/materials, that the layout tracks, solder joints and even individual parts of rollingstock will repeatedly be subjected to. Even glues and other adhesives can fail as a result of exposure to such conditions over time. Plus, cyclic changes in the layout's benchwork might be anticipated. All this in addition to the problems already cited concerning locomotive lubricants.

While, when situated in milder climates, one can get away with such essentially "outdoor" layouts without experiencing much in the way of serious difficulties, I'm really quite doubtful that this can be successfully accomplished in Michigan over any length of time without employing at least minimal measures for controlling building temperature and humidity.

NYW&B

 

[Selector]

Yes......what NYW&B said. The engines, if they cool along with the ambient, will be just fine. It's when you quickly raise the temps so that you can enjoy operating them that the problem arises: the engine frames and motors will be cold sinks for quite some time as the heat builds, but as the heat builds, so will the moisture content of the air. It's called "relative humidity". Warm air holds more moisture content than does cold air.

Your engine shells are not air-tight, so while they may move fine with decent lubes that don't harden in the cold, the moving locos will also force moisture laden air into themselves, passing moist air over their still-cold innards. Just like a cold glass of beer on a warm day, you get moisture condensing on the side of the glass. In physics, this process warms the frame/glass quickly, but the trade-off is the dripping moisture, and that can't really be good over time.

What you can do is to partially heat the area, if at all practicable, and also maintain a monitored dehumidifier in the same space. At least that will minimize the problem when you do go out to get the place warmed.

But there's no way in hell's half that I would leave my engines in cold and humidity...at least, not the way it is in the PNW.

-Crandell

 

[RexHea]

I realize that it may seem ludicrous that Larry (Florida) and myself (Alabama) even comment on this thread. However, when you consider we have the same conditions from the opposite end of the thermometer, it is not unreasonable to assume the same effects from extreme temperature variations and year-round very high humidity. My layout is located in my 24x40 shop that is only heated/cooled when in use. I have yet to experience any problems related to the changes in humidity or temperature. Heating or cooling this space does not take place suddenly and there have been no condensation problems. Where it is far from environmentally perfect, neither are the locos and equipment perfect. You do what you "gotta" do.

Jim, I assumed you had an enclosed room/space within the pole barn. You could easily seal off and heavy insulate this space. Then, a small electric heater will not only keep your layout/equipment at a relatively even temp, it will also cost you less to heat up to a more comfortable level. One other concern that came to mind: is this room fairly free from barn dust? The dust will eventually cause motor, track, and wheel problems; not to mention a PIA to keep off the layout. Again, sealing off the room/space and insulation would eliminate this problem.

If my assumption is incorrect and you are talking about a layout in the open part of the barn, not a good idea because of all the above reasons.

 

[JimInMichigan]

Its a completely open ( 1 room ) 24x32x10. No room to make a train room. I had planned on placing a plastic sheet over the layout when not in use.

I'm leaning towards going back to the original "L" layout table I 1st posted ( in the spare bedroom ). Either have a tight HO, or go N. I'm not sure I'd be happy with N gauge.

 

[Motley]

That's a huge space for a layout. I say you build in the barn. You could just get a couple of those portable heaters during the winter. So it's not freezing in there. Maybe throw some insulation on the walls, couldn't be that hard to do.

You might get bored quickly with a small layout.

 

[JimInMichigan]

I couldnt use the whole space for the layout, only a small area. I also park my truck in there in the winter. At most, I'd probably built a 12'x5'...maybe 14'x5' if I got crazy with it. Place it on wheels so I could roll it up against the wall when not in use.

Its already insulated. I have a gas fireplace for heat. But propane is not cheap, so I dont want to heat it full time.

 

[IowaFarmBoy]

Yes......what NYW&B said. The engines, if they cool along with the ambient, will be just fine. It's when you quickly raise the temps so that you can enjoy operating them that the problem arises: the engine frames and motors will be cold sinks for quite some time as the heat builds, but as the heat builds, so will the moisture content of the air. It's called "relative humidity". Warm air holds more moisture content than does cold air.

... <Snipped by me>.

What you can do is to partially heat the area, if at all practicable, and also maintain a monitored dehumidifier in the same space. At least that will minimize the problem when you do go out to get the place warmed.


-Crandell[/QUOTE

Crandall is correct except for one thing. There is little extra moisture that can enter the air in places like Michigan and Iowa (Yes, I'm in Iowa) in the winter. That's why we often need humidifiers (not dehumidifiers) to add moisture to the air because wood shrinks in the winter dryness. I have no Pacific Northwest experience but I am guessing that what he says fits there.

 

[diburning]

The lube thing won't be a problem. It may hinder operation at first, but as it warms up from operation, it shouldn't be a problem.

 

[bnsf971]

Okay, several of us had an HO layout in a barn that wasn't fully enclosed. The barn was in Missouri, and we had problems you probably wouldn't think about. Field mice chewed up the wires, peed and crapped on the layout, ate scenery, and in general made a mess. Dirt and dust got everywhere, the rails kept coming apart from the temperature changes, the layout itself expanded and contracted from changes in humidity, as well as the wood warped even though it was "indoors", not to mention it was miserable trying to keep cool in Summer and warm in Winter. This was fully enclosed on 3 sides, and mostly enclosed on the 4th side. But it was a barn, and they are not built to the same tolerances as houses.

 

[cv_acr]

JimInMichigan:

My club's layout is in exactly that sort of environment. It's an insulated but unheated (normally) building in southern Ontario, so pretty close to you.

We've never had any issues with operating locos in there, and our operating season runs through the winter. It takes at least an hour or so of running the wood pellet stove and a few space heaters before the place can be considered fit for human occupation, but the locos don't complain.

 

[cv_acr]

What doesn't work well in the cold is scenery work. Drywall mud and white glue don't really set properly in extreme cold. It _really_ slows down the drying time. (Some spots of drywall mud were still wet a week later)