Interesting track plan, Tupper Lake & Faust Junction


BEWARE of how you install Peco turnouts

I think many of us are aware of the problems that can arise when the wheels of our locos bridge the 2 rails exiting the frogs of turnouts,...or at least many of us WILL BECOME aware.

I've utilized almost all insulfrog Pecos on my layout,..and I had been convinced by many forum members that providing insulators on those 2 tracks exiting the frogs were not always needed, .....particularly where the gap between those frog rails appeared to be large enough to not cause a shorting problem.

I HAVE EXPERIENCED THE OPPOSITE,...they are all necessary !
I wired up my whole layout for DCC operation, but before I hooked in the DCC power, I hooked up multiple DC transformers to see if I had done it properly. YES, everything was working just fine on DC,..no shorts, even the revers-er sections OK .

Then I hooked in my DCC power to the lower deck,...AND began to experience numerous mini-stalls/tripping of the DCC Specialities circuit protection boards !!

I ran 7 different type locos (diesel and steam) over these problem areas,....some made it thru the gauntlet,..most did not. Turns out it was not a specific wheel problem, it was that MOST wheels would short out on those frog rails.
I have spent the last 2 days going back and cutting insulation gaps in those Peco turnouts. Now things are working very smoothly with no stalling/shorting.
 
beiland said:
BEWARE of how you install Peco turnouts

I think many of us are aware of the problems that can arise when the wheels of our locos bridge the 2 rails exiting the frogs of turnouts,...or at least many of us WILL BECOME aware.

I've utilized almost all insulfrog Pecos on my layout,..and I had been convinced by many forum members that providing insulators on those 2 tracks exiting the frogs were not always needed, .....particularly where the gap between those frog rails appeared to be large enough to not cause a shorting problem.

I HAVE EXPERIENCED THE OPPOSITE,...they are all necessary !
I wired up my whole layout for DCC operation, but before I hooked in the DCC power, I hooked up multiple DC transformers to see if I had done it properly. YES, everything was working just fine on DC,..no shorts, even the revers-er sections OK .

Then I hooked in my DCC power to the lower deck,...AND began to experience numerous mini-stalls/tripping of the DCC Specialities circuit protection boards !!

I ran 7 different type locos (diesel and steam) over these problem areas,....some made it thru the gauntlet,..most did not. Turns out it was not a specific wheel problem, it was that MOST wheels would short out on those frog rails.
I have spent the last 2 days going back and cutting insulation gaps in those Peco turnouts. Now things are working very smoothly with no stalling/shorting.
Click to expand...
I do not see any shorting on mine yet, I wonder why?
 
beiland said:
BEWARE of how you install Peco turnouts

I think many of us are aware of the problems that can arise when the wheels of our locos bridge the 2 rails exiting the frogs of turnouts,...or at least many of us WILL BECOME aware.

I've utilized almost all insulfrog Pecos on my layout,..and I had been convinced by many forum members that providing insulators on those 2 tracks exiting the frogs were not always needed, .....particularly where the gap between those frog rails appeared to be large enough to not cause a shorting problem.

I HAVE EXPERIENCED THE OPPOSITE,...they are all necessary !
I wired up my whole layout for DCC operation, but before I hooked in the DCC power, I hooked up multiple DC transformers to see if I had done it properly. YES, everything was working just fine on DC,..no shorts, even the revers-er sections OK .

Then I hooked in my DCC power to the lower deck,...AND began to experience numerous mini-stalls/tripping of the DCC Specialities circuit protection boards !!

I ran 7 different type locos (diesel and steam) over these problem areas,....some made it thru the gauntlet,..most did not. Turns out it was not a specific wheel problem, it was that MOST wheels would short out on those frog rails.
I have spent the last 2 days going back and cutting insulation gaps in those Peco turnouts. Now things are working very smoothly with no stalling/shorting.
Click to expand...
Yes I also had a few out of the many insul frogs of mine giving me grief , not a lot but there were a few and adding an insulator resolved the problem.
 
Lynnb said:
Yes I also had a few out of the many insul frogs of mine giving me grief , not a lot but there were a few and adding an insulator resolved the problem.
Click to expand...
When you say giving you grief, it what way, power routing, stalling or derailing ?
 
Smudge617 said:
Are you using Electrofrogs as well ?
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I am using insulfrogs…pic attached, notice the price in Cdn dollars….still have a few to buy….lol

IMG_9615.jpeg


IMG_9616.jpeg
 
BigGRacing said:
I am using insulfrogs…pic attached, notice the price in Cdn dollars….still have a few to buy….lol

View attachment 178034

View attachment 178035
Click to expand...
They're like $18 here:eek: maybe I should see what the postage is to Canada.

www.ebay.co.uk

PECO Streamline SL-96 Turnout, Medium Radius, Left Hand for sale online | eBay

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Smudge617 said:
They're like $18 here:eek: maybe I should see what the postage is to Canada.

www.ebay.co.uk

PECO Streamline SL-96 Turnout, Medium Radius, Left Hand for sale online | eBay

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for PECO Streamline SL-96 Turnout, Medium Radius, Left Hand at the best online prices at eBay! Free delivery for many products!
www.ebay.co.uk
Click to expand...
That price is. $22 which is a lot cheaper. We have shipping boxes available within Canada for about $18, I don’t know if you have similar or not but as you know, shipping from Canada is up there in price For sure
 
Lets begin with the selection of locos I had readily at hand to run my experiments,...6 diesels of various makes and axle numbers, and 1 Bachmann steamer.
DSCF9764.jpg


And here is that Peco 3-way that is giving me trouble with those engines.
DSCF9766.jpg
(that 3-way is at connecting that one mainline track with the freight yard tracks and diesel servicing area,..its going to see a lot of service and needs to work flawlessly,...and its over behind the steel mill buildings)

You might be able to see several white spots where I had originally inserted isolating pieces of plastic on 2-3 of the joints of that Peco 3-way. I went back and cut fresh isolating joints in all 4 of those frog rails, and now the meter shows me I've got it correct,...the 3-way is now operating correctly,....no shorting of the wheels on ANY of those 7 locos.

Turns out I have a curved Peco feeding that 3-way, and I had selected to NOT add insulators to its frog rails, thus it was faulting some of my test engines. I cut joints in its frog rails, and now it works correctly.

I decided to look at all my peco turnouts in the steel mill area,...and I found that about half of them did NOT have insulated frog rails. I ran a few short locos over those turnouts and found they created faults as well.
I HAVE NOW DETERMINED THAT I AM GOING BACK OVER MY ENTIRE LAYOUT AND REFIXING ANY TURNOUTS WITHOUT FROG -RAIL INSULATORS !!!
 
Two very interesting observations from that other forum,...

I have yet to see anybody ever list which equipment causes the short. I think that would be very helpful to know, because even the folks who have the problem also say its usually only a few pieces of equipment.

I buy PECO because of the compact length of the insulated frog. (Small locos at slow speeds and no need for keep alives) I don't care for power to be dependent upon the points (which is why they have the tight spring holding the points against the rail), so I power as much of the turnout as possible. My installation would cause a problem, but it doesn't, probably because I only own equipment built after year 2000.
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reply
I doubt that such a comprehensive list could successfully exist. Here's why:
  • because of the mechanical dynamics of how our model locomotives are driven, there is tremendous variation in how the motor forces react through the mechanism drive chain to where the wheels meet the rails. This can result in a bogie or steam-power unit "kicking sideways" to the maximum amount allowed by the flanges at times. This may or may not happen when one of the blind drivers or wider profile wheels happens to align with where it can bridge across the isolating area at the frog.
  • the extent of such power unit swing can also be dependent on the direction of travel.
  • model manufacturers have to fudge the wheel widths to get their mechanism around our many-times-tighter scale model curves that prototype trains (whether steam diesel or electric) were ever designed to handle. The degree of "fudge" varies from manufacturer to manufacturer and from model to model within each manufacturer's range of model offerings. Part of the "fudge" is wheels with wider profiled wheels. (See Proto 87 vs NMRA spec wheels topic on here). This both prevents our model wheels from dropping in between the rails on the outside wheels on the curve or from "falling off" outside the inside rails of our model curves.
  • anything more than a 4-coupled steam loco power unit COULD be fitted with one or more axles with flangeless wheels. This also applies to 3 or more axle diesel bogies and fixed chassis i/c powered units (UK Class 08 diesel and similar).
  • the longer the prototype's fixed wheelbase is, then the more likely it is that flangeless axles will be needed to successfully negotiate our "minimum radius" model curves.
  • The fitting of flangeless driving wheels need not be restricted to "large" locomotives. I've personally driven small 2'gauge steam and diesel locomotives in 1:1 scale that had flangeless driving axles with a 7' wheelbase and only 2' wheel diameter.
  • There are that many models out there from that many commercial makers internationally that no such comprehensive list could be compiled of mechanisms fitted with wide profile wheels/blind driving axles. Then there are the specialised custom-brass locomotives from numerous manufacturers over many years. The list of locomotives fitted with blind driving axles/wider- than prototype wheel treads would extend to several hundreds at least.
  • Then you have to sort those from that "list" those that "might" have problems running DCC while ignoring Peco's own instructions to isolate the rails coming away from the frog.
  • Isolating the rails coming away from the frog prevents any bridging of the isolation at the frog from causing any problems regardless of locomotive wheelbase, configuration or manufacturer whether running with DC or DCC. So, who needs a list? John Garaty , Unanderra in oz
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beiland said:
Two very interesting observations from that other forum,...



reply
Click to expand...
Blind drivers shorting on divergent portions of turnouts is one reason why I shim them up off the rails .016" and shim the flanged drivers downward the same on my steam locomotives. You can't see that the blind drivers don't ride on top of the rails unless you get right down with light behind them. Also keeps the blind drivers from catching on the rail heads coming out of curves.
 
BigGRacing said:
That price is. $22 which is a lot cheaper. We have shipping boxes available within Canada for about $18, I don’t know if you have similar or not but as you know, shipping from Canada is up there in price For sure
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Shipping to Canada starts at £18 depending on size, weight etc. I would actually need the items on hand to get the exact size for postage.
 
Smudge617 said:
Ok, is this on small locos like a 0-4-0 or larger loco like a geep or switcher, also is this happening on locos with all-wheel pickups?
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It was a 2-10-0 and 4-6-4 , found the post and link for you, unfortunately it’s on facebook. The video is quite large so unlikely I would be able to upload here.

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Lynnb said:
It was a 2-10-0 and 4-6-4 , found the post and link for you, unfortunately it’s on facebook. The video is quite large so unlikely I would be able to upload here.

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Click to expand...
The link just takes me to the NMRA log in page, so that's no help really, it's strange that such large locos are stalling, I can only think there's either a very dirty section of track, or you've got a "dead spot" more likely the second one I think, do you have a multimeter to check if there's a power on that section ?
 
Smudge617 said:
The link just takes me to the NMRA log in page, so that's no help really, it's strange that such large locos are stalling, I can only think there's either a very dirty section of track, or you've got a "dead spot" more likely the second one I think, do you have a multimeter to check if there's a power on that section ?
Click to expand...
I was afraid of that, for me if I click the link it asks me to login to Facebook and it works , but if you’re not a member on the Facebook page called NMRA I suppose it won’t work, hmmm.
 
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