How important is the programming track


B

brad.p

Lost between ATSF & BNSF
I am looking at the various options for a dcc system and am quite keen on the Digitrax Super Empire Builder. However, I see that it does not support a programming track read/write function. What is the requirement for this facility and how important would you rate it as a criterion for choosing a system?

Any other shortcomings on this system compared to the Digitrax Super Chief set?
 
A programming track is important to systems that do need it. If it does not support it, then the system should support programing on the main.
 
The Super Empire is the older version. If you plan on doing any custom programming of your engines (like synchronizing consists) you want a digital readout.

How big a layout are you running? My club president runs a basement layout off a Zephyr (has digital readout) and we ran 10 locos (4 with sound) at a party at his house.

Many people start with the Zephyr and add the Empire Builder as an upgrade using the Zephyr as the base unit.
 
Hi Josh/Chip,

I intend to use this on a small home layout - probably 6x8 feet and will likely run between 3&5 locos max at any time. The main differences I see between the EMpire Builder and Zephyr is the lower current rating on the Zephyr, no included hand throttle with the Zephyr and no Read/Write capability on the Empire.

From my understanding, the first 2 can be got around by adding boosters and hand throttles, but the inability of the Empire to read the programmed value of a CV could become a major drawback which cannot be got around on that system without adding a whole new controller like the DCS100?
 
I'm currently using a Bachmann E-Z Command system that also has no ability to read or write CV values. Programming on the main on a small layout is not a problem. Just make sure the new engine is the only one one the track and you won't have to worrry about inadvertently programming two engines at once.

The main issue with programming on the main is with engines that have newly installed DCC decoders. A programming track has a lower current and is less likely to smoke your decoder if you wired something wrong. This is really an issue with decoders that require hardwiring. A decoder that plugs into a 8 or 9 pin socket is pretty near impossible to fatally install wrong and programming on the main is generally not a problem.

The inability to read or write CV values may or may not be an issue. If you are using non-sound equipped engines, most decoders will work fine without ever having to program any CV's. They are nice to fine tune things like starting speed or top speed but all the major functions like light controls and momentum are generally right on the money for most purposes.

If you have or are going to get sound equipped locomotives, now things change. Reading and writing CV's becomes a more important issue. There are a lot of sound settings and they may not be right in volume or tone for your room. For example, I have a BLI E-7 with sound. There's a manual adjustment for sound in the engine but that just turns it up and down. I really need to get to the correct CV values to change the loudness of the bell and horn since they can hardly be heard if the prime mover sound is at the right sound level for the room. If I turn up the sound, I can hear the horn and the bell but the engine sound is deafening. I have no regrets getting the Bachmann unit since I spent $60 for it and got my feet wet with DCC. My next unit will definitely have a digital readout, the ability to read and write CV's, and the ability to use a programming track.
 
I use a MRC Command 2000 and never had problems programming on the main line. Although I did setup a program track so that I didn't have to take multiple locos on and off the track.
 
I have a Super Chief and about the only thing I use the programming track for is the address. The Chief doesn't allow mainline (Ops mode)programming for the address unless you use CV17-18. All other programming is done on the mainline since speeds, sounds, and etc. shoud be tested/adjusted as you go.

Without a program track capability, you can always have a short piece of track to program the address on. Just have a dp/dt toggle switch for switching main power to the program track or to the main track.

The smartest thing anyone can do if they have an old laptop or desktop computer is to download DecoderPro (JMRI) software for free. With the purchase of a LocoBuffer interface, you can program everything on the main or programming track with the computer. Main advantage is every setting is stored for the loco for future reference. If you ever have to default the decoder, you simply download that file to that loco and you are ready to go with the exact settings you had.

Depending on your budget, you need to consider getting what you may need in the future. What may seem to be only "nice" things to have on the larger command stations, are actually for versatility and ease of operations. A 5 amp system will take care of most layouts and a booster can always be added for later expansion/operation. Five amps will run a lot of sound trains.;) :)
 
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RexHea said:
Without a program track capability, you can always have a short piece of track to program the address on. Just have a dp/dt toggle switch for switching main power to the program track or to the main track.
Click to expand...

My layout is a walkaround so to keep things simple I used insulated rail joiners and styrene between tracks and put a two foot section of track at the end of one of my yard tracks.
 
Mike, that is exactly what I did, only my section is switchable from programming power to main power. In fact, mine is part of a yard lead. Very convenient: just program address, throw switch, move out to main. :)
 
Sorry, but I don't get why guys think that they have to put the programming track on the layout. I took a 2 x 4 banged it between two of the layout supports, put a piece of old track on it and ran the two wires from the back of the Zephyr.

The other thing I don't get is why people running 3-5 trains at once think they need more than 2.5 amps. Even with 5 sound engines you're not going to approach the 2.5 a unless you hold them on the track without letting them move.

Now when you get up to 8-12 sound engines and are running ops sessions in your basement, I say buy the booster. But until then, spend your hobby money on something that will make a difference like 10 turnouts or couple nice engines.
 
Thanks for all the input - it has helped me to undertsand the need (or not) for the programming track and its functions. While I understand that there are many manufacturers of DCC systems, I have pretty much decided that I will stick with Digitrax as it is the only one which has decent backup support here in South Africa - not many users of the other systems. So I feel it makes sense to stick with what most guys are using.

After much reading last night, I have pretty much settled in my mind that I will go for the Super Chief set as it seems to do everything and if I later decide to upgrade the Zephyr, it will ultimately work out more for the same features.

I also now better understand the issues behind reading/writing CV's and feel that I would like that feature. I am going to download DecoderPro as suggested and have a look at it in the meantime.
 
I have the SEB with DT400 throttles. I also have a gapped programming track that is actually most of my lead to the turntable...right in front of my nose so that I can rail engines and cars easily.

As does Rex, I only programme the initial address change on that track, and I do it in Paged Mode per Digitrax's suggestion. I flip between powering that small section and the rest of the layout by using an SPDT.
 
Brad,

You do understand that the Zephyr is the low end and that the Super Chief is the high end large basement/club unit. You have no need for the Zephyr if you have the Super Chief. The Zephyr is a pretty powerful starter system that is infinitely expandable.

Your message above seems to indicate you think it is the opposite.
 
SpaceMouse said:
Brad,

You do understand that the Zephyr is the low end and that the Super Chief is the high end large basement/club unit. You have no need for the Zephyr if you have the Super Chief. The Zephyr is a pretty powerful starter system that is infinitely expandable.

Your message above seems to indicate you think it is the opposite.
Click to expand...

Hi Chip,

That was part of my reasoning behind deciding on the Super Chief. I did the sums and the cost of adding a DT-400 and additional booster to later increase the Zephyr's capacity made it a more expensive option than buying the S/C up front. I realise that one can add throttles, boosters, etc. to the Zephyr, but it lands up costing much more (at least here in SA) going that route. So I convinced myself to spend the extra and buy the Super CHief up front and rather put future money towards extra throttles, etc. I have worked out that the Zephyr can do pretty much most of what the S/C can, with the main "limitation" being the current rating and having to purchase the other add-ons.

Thanks again for the interest and advise.
 
SpaceMouse said:
Sorry, but I don't get why guys think that they have to put the programming track on the layout. I took a 2 x 4 banged it between two of the layout supports, put a piece of old track on it and ran the two wires from the back of the Zephyr.

The other thing I don't get is why people running 3-5 trains at once think they need more than 2.5 amps. Even with 5 sound engines you're not going to approach the 2.5 a unless you hold them on the track without letting them move.

Now when you get up to 8-12 sound engines and are running ops sessions in your basement, I say buy the booster. But until then, spend your hobby money on something that will make a difference like 10 turnouts or couple nice engines.
Click to expand...

1. No one is saying you have to put it on the layout, it is just a convenient place to put it for moving the loco on to the mainlines for further testing/adjusting CV's, i.e. you don't have to pick it up and move it. CV's such as speed dependant sounds and acceleration/deceleration that require you to run on long lengths of track for final adjustment can be done by simply throwing a switch and entering the mainline. Why not? It doesn't require any more work or electrical knowledge than having it located remotely.

2. I agree that the current values used by loco's are not even close to the values so many emphatically proclaim and 2.5 amps is sufficient for smaller layouts. However, if there is a slight notion that someday the layout will expand, then why not pay out the extra $100 now instead of trying to unload the smaller unit later and for a loss. I have the 8 amp Super Chief and the highest current supplied from it has only been 6.25 amps. Why 8 instead of 5amp: because it was only ~$50 more and someday it may be needed...as it was. Another fact is that the larger the amperage capability of a power supply, the less work it has to do and the more dependable it will be for a given load. Having a 2.5 amp power supply does not necessarily mean it will be reliable for a load of 2.5 amps...only that it "should" supply it. The question is: how long can it do this without distorting and then failure?

3. Personally, I believe one of the biggest mistakes made with new layouts is skimping on the command system. It always amazes me why someone would never flinch at spending $1,000+ on five sound locomotives, but flinch at spending more than $150 for the DCC system. That's like spending $2000 on a computer, but only having 128meg of memory or a fortune for a sports car with a 4 cylinder engine. The DCC command system is the heart of the layout and should be the best that can be afforded and large enough for any future use.
 
Rex,

How long can you run 3-5 trains on a Zephyr without degrading--forever.

Booster Power Table

You can extrapolate that 2.5 a can run 5-7 locos.

To take the Zephyr to 10.5 amps--add a DB200+ for $157 (Tony's) to the Loconet when you are ready.

You don't sell the old system
 
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Chip,
I'm didn't say, "...don't get a Zephyr.", as it will meet many small layout needs. However, I did say that if you have the idea of later expansion, go ahead and spend the extra money now for a system that will handle it rather than eat the smaller unit cost later (plus the expense of the new). Yes, the Zephyr will easily handle 3-5 locos and even more on the layout providing they are not all running at the exact same time (this is only a couple of double headed trains.). No, you can't push a power supply of any kind to its design limits forever without eventually having problems.
 
Rex,

I have no arguments there. We ran 10 locos on a 20 x 25 layout for about 2 hours on a Zephyr, but I would seriously consider upgrading as that does push the limit. And if you are going to do that all the time it is cheaper to buy the Super Chief up front. However, too many people over buy.

It's not the size of the layout that makes the difference, it's the number of locos. But I'll grant you that the larger the layout, the more likely you'll want to run a larger number of trains.
 
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