So it costs over $52 Billion a year to run Amtrak by your estimate of $100K a Minute. Something doesnt seem right here.
High Speed Rail for Florida?
- Thread starter vato loco
- Start date
So it costs over $52 Billion a year to run Amtrak by your estimate of $100K a Minute. Something doesnt seem right here.
I agree with all that has been said here. Pretty much a political smoke and mirror show to follow up the babble that was burning up good prime time on Wednesday night.
Putting aside all that has been said I looked at it from the point of view I think most folks up in the snow belt states might look at it. Folks from here only travel to Florida in the Winter to catch a break from the cold, etc. Assuming many would fly into Tampa - St Pete and use the HSR to go to Dizzyworld that seems to indicate that around 6 months of the year when us Snowbirds don't go down there the HSR would be way under utilized. That leaves the remaining 6 months of the year to make enough money to keep it running all year. Does anybody really think for one second that will happen???
Just one more slash in the financial jugular vein of the taxpayers.
Putting aside all that has been said I looked at it from the point of view I think most folks up in the snow belt states might look at it. Folks from here only travel to Florida in the Winter to catch a break from the cold, etc. Assuming many would fly into Tampa - St Pete and use the HSR to go to Dizzyworld that seems to indicate that around 6 months of the year when us Snowbirds don't go down there the HSR would be way under utilized. That leaves the remaining 6 months of the year to make enough money to keep it running all year. Does anybody really think for one second that will happen???
Just one more slash in the financial jugular vein of the taxpayers.
Larry
Long Winded Old Fart
When I was in Miami(where I grew up) about 2 years ago I went over to the Tri-rail station in Hialeah & watched those MT trains go back & forth for about an hour. Most of the time they had only about 20 people in each car.(3 Bombadier cars per train.)
Then the Monorail was another story all by it'self. A very overated type of transportation running all over Dade County w/millions of dollars in maint. costs. very few riders. Costly to ride from WPalm Beach to Miami & back every 30 minutes.
Then the Monorail was another story all by it'self. A very overated type of transportation running all over Dade County w/millions of dollars in maint. costs. very few riders. Costly to ride from WPalm Beach to Miami & back every 30 minutes.
joe circus
Well-Known Member
After Obama spoke here today the news gave a run down about the history of the HSR, they've been chasing this since 1976...
Also, the news claimed tonight that they expect 27,000 people to ride this turkey every day...lol
Also, the news claimed tonight that they expect 27,000 people to ride this turkey every day...lol
Larry
Long Winded Old Fart
Maybe this will give the hi-ups the incintive to start on that mega airport in Hardee County out by the prison that they've been talking about for 15 years. they said the HSR had to be built 1st before they started clearing the land. This place is out in the boonies about 85 miles south east of Tampa.
Sorry, should have clarified that. That's estimated cost for the taxpayer since Amtrak started. This year, it will another $1.7 billion added so the total per minute is still going up.
Beachbum
Member
Beachbum by your name and that you go to St. Pete you must go to Clearwater and indian rocks?
Yes, sir. Clearwater down to St Pete Beach. I love Pinellas. I'd move there in a flash but I'm constrained by family obligations, etc to stay on the tundra (4 degrees this morning again) for a few more years.
Yeah, Proviso is a big honking yard. Never really railfanned it myself, but I see it easily from the tollway, etc. Elmhurst is the first METRA stop west of Proviso and that's a good place to railfan plus Al's Hobby Shop is right there.
jayl1
Member
Another government "your tax dollars at work" scam (IMHO). Running down the middle of I-4 - with a few stops planned - would miss all cities along the line. What about parking spots for riders? Cost of a ride - ??. Why would a Disney customer stay in Tampa when there are loads of rooms near (or in) the parks??
BTW the I-4 delay was due to sinkholes occuring due to excessive water use during ourrecent cold spell. Cirtus & strawberry farmers were spraying their crops to save them with ice.
And like Larry, Vatoloco, & Alcomotive I live in Florida.
BTW the I-4 delay was due to sinkholes occuring due to excessive water use during ourrecent cold spell. Cirtus & strawberry farmers were spraying their crops to save them with ice.
And like Larry, Vatoloco, & Alcomotive I live in Florida.
vato loco
Just a Foolish Saint!
My point exactly! Like i said, I don't think 27,000 live in Tampa and Work in Orlando and vice versa? and if there were I don't think your going to pry them out of there cars to save 30 minutes of tavel time. I know for a fact It would only cost me in gas $12 to drive my wifes car from Tampa to Orlando and back and take 2 to 3 hours round trip depending on traffic?
As for tourest visiting the Theme Parks I for one when we go to Orlando and stay over we use the Theme Parks Resorts....Sure it cost more but I'm there and I can Just park my car and ain't got to bother with it again till I leave!
Also there are tons of Mom and pop Airport Limo/bus's that cross the I-4 corridor everyday, I'm sure the train can't compete with thier prices!
This is going to be intresting to watch to see how it pans out to say the least and bares to be watched like a hawk. California and Illinois too! Like the Auto industry and Banking, The Government needs to stay out of the Railroad business and leave that to the experts in these matters. I'm sure If there is money to be made in high speed rail from TIA to OIA or any where for that matter. It's a safe bet that some privite company would have already have built the HSR already! Am i right or am I right?
To the people in charge of this mess....you know who you are.....
Just because Mr. Jones across the pond has a High speed train set and it works for him doesn't mean it going to work for you and you should have one too
!If Mr. Jones jumped of a cliff.....Would you?
It's like dealing with my kid on this one! ROFLMAO
vato loco
Just a Foolish Saint!
I love the Nature Coast Area! The Hurricans are a PITA but IMO worth it!
As for Proviso, I stayed in the Neigborhood right next door. I listened to the hump yard all night long, and woke to the wonderful sounds and smells comming from it! I would walk from the house and sit in that Elmhurst station with my camera and took pictures all day! Also my old GF's uncle just retierd before my visit he was an engineer for CNW. He had enough contacts so I was given a personal tour of the yard and engine facility... I never made it to Al's though
Beachbum
Member
One thing that I think people are overlooking is that this HSR project(s) might, and I emphasize the word might, be the seed for a true HSR system a la the interstate highway system.
I doubt we'll see a US HSR network in our lifetimes but if part of such a thing did come to pass and was as affordable as flying, I'd certainly use the system. Think of the TPA-MCO line as a testbed maybe.
Maybe they should have Disney build it - Disney terraformed Central Florida pretty quickly. LOL! (No offense meant to WDW or anybody else...)
I doubt we'll see a US HSR network in our lifetimes but if part of such a thing did come to pass and was as affordable as flying, I'd certainly use the system. Think of the TPA-MCO line as a testbed maybe.
Maybe they should have Disney build it - Disney terraformed Central Florida pretty quickly. LOL! (No offense meant to WDW or anybody else...)
Ah, a pleasant thought, but people back in the 50's actually had a plan. They would use tax money to build the interstates (called the National Defense Highway System back then) but then get the money back through user fees and excise taxes on truckers and a federal gasoline tax on everyone. We are still paying that tax, BTW, even though the cost of the interstate highways system has been long paid back. In addition, many are are toll roads now, which also helps pay for the ongoing maintenance. The best estimates I've seen is that all these fees pay for about 85% of the ongoing cost of the interstate system. By contrast, with the exception of a few LRV systems, the best average performance with public transit is returning 17% of the total cost from the fare box.
ICG/SOU
HO & O (3-rail) trainman
For any increase in passenger rail, there would have to be a fundamental mindset change in the average person as well as a fundamental redesign of our cities and towns. In Europe, especially Germany, where I was stationed for a year, cities were built long before the automobile. Most lived within the city walls for protection and convenience. Every neighborhood had its own market, drug store, hardware store, etc., as did most neighborhood dwellers work where they lived.
With the invention of the automobile, people weren't tethered to living where they work. They could live on one side of town and work on the other. The commute would be via bus or rail or subway, since the small streets and hodge-podge design of the city aren't conducive to moving large amounts of cars for any real distance (not to mention parking). Towns that are laid out in compact fashions in the US (ones that were founded and well-established before 1850) benefit from a developed public transportation system. However, I'd say most of the country does not have such cities and towns, and thus are spread out greatly.
A trip from the town I was stationed in to Munich was about 45 minutes, via rail or car. The car had the advantage that I could leave from where I lived rather than walk a mile to the hauptbahnhof, and then catch the train. However, if I was going to the Munich Airport or altstadt Munich, then riding the train was better since I didn't have to worry about parking a car or traffic.
Occasionally, though, we'd go up to Wurzburg, about 4 hours by car, because we'd go shopping at the big PX there. You also wanted your car so that you'd have a way to carry back everything you bought. I wouldn't have been able to go from the kaserne to the train station and then 4-5 hours back to my post with more than a six-pack of Barq's rootbeer via train, as it involved changing trains at least once.
Even with the famed Autobahn system, the train is easier to go from large town to large town, because of the amount of truck and car traffic congestion. The distances covered by the TGV, ICE, etc. also don't equal the same distances here in the States. In the US, 4 hours by car could get me almost 300 miles without stopping. 300 miles in Europe by car is an overnight trip.
With the invention of the automobile, people weren't tethered to living where they work. They could live on one side of town and work on the other. The commute would be via bus or rail or subway, since the small streets and hodge-podge design of the city aren't conducive to moving large amounts of cars for any real distance (not to mention parking). Towns that are laid out in compact fashions in the US (ones that were founded and well-established before 1850) benefit from a developed public transportation system. However, I'd say most of the country does not have such cities and towns, and thus are spread out greatly.
A trip from the town I was stationed in to Munich was about 45 minutes, via rail or car. The car had the advantage that I could leave from where I lived rather than walk a mile to the hauptbahnhof, and then catch the train. However, if I was going to the Munich Airport or altstadt Munich, then riding the train was better since I didn't have to worry about parking a car or traffic.
Occasionally, though, we'd go up to Wurzburg, about 4 hours by car, because we'd go shopping at the big PX there. You also wanted your car so that you'd have a way to carry back everything you bought. I wouldn't have been able to go from the kaserne to the train station and then 4-5 hours back to my post with more than a six-pack of Barq's rootbeer via train, as it involved changing trains at least once.
Even with the famed Autobahn system, the train is easier to go from large town to large town, because of the amount of truck and car traffic congestion. The distances covered by the TGV, ICE, etc. also don't equal the same distances here in the States. In the US, 4 hours by car could get me almost 300 miles without stopping. 300 miles in Europe by car is an overnight trip.
Mike_Arnold
Newbie Modeler
I think this is something that will only help the minority and is waisted money!
How is this only helping the minority?
________________________________
I think we need high speed rail in america. I'm tired of it taking 6 hours to ride from STL to Chicago.
joe circus
Well-Known Member
Only a very small minority of the population will use it. While the vast majority of taxpayers will fund it...
joe circus
Well-Known Member
On the 5 o'clock news, these clowns from the state acknowledged that they don't have anywhere near the funds to complete it. BUT, they're going to break ground asap, and when they run out of money either take the money from the road repair budget or, raise property taxes!!! Well, they do hope to get more money from another government program.
Apparently their full plan is, hope...
Are they insane?
Yes, rhetorical question...
Apparently their full plan is, hope...
Are they insane?
Yes, rhetorical question...
joe circus
Well-Known Member
I see how it works, Obama announced 1.25 billion dollars for the HSR from Orlando to Tampa...
Today, he denied 1 billion dollars to NASA...
I guess the feds figure Florida is even...lol
Today, he denied 1 billion dollars to NASA...
I guess the feds figure Florida is even...lol
blownoutcylinder
Active Member
Trey Interesting commentary regarding the differences in Europe and us as regards our communities. Although I basically agree with what you said, I find that the car is all too often seen as the reason why our communities and our spread out situation is accounting for much of this I'm more inclined to think that it is due mostly to our planners who got the idea that the "crowded" conditions of our cities needed to be "cleansed" of the "cancerous growth" of the inner cities. Once seen in the light of the medical metaphor it became a matter of time before the single zonal system came to the forefront.
Many cities ended up with single family homes ranked up against apartment dwellings that had nothing to do with the retail sectors which then had zilch to do with the commercial industrial sectors.With miles separating them it became a matter of time before one could see huge traffic jams all over the place with next to no mass/public transit to help reduce the traffic. Of course one could blame the average citizen and his love of the car for this one---albeit conveniently forgetting that the planners, themselves, controlled where the housing went
Now, the new issue is that most of our children are not walking to schools because---well--the neighbourhood schools are closing in favour of giant hypertrophied schools that the kids are now bussed to ---20-25 miles away---and WE say THEY'RE lazy----
Any kind of mass transit system must deal also with the rash of NIMBYisms with the attached BANANA (Build Absolutely Nothing Anywhere Near Anything) and the LULU (Locally Undesireable Land Use) that will accompany the whole debate. Right now we see many former industrial sites that can't even be reused for the VERY uses the sites had---industrial. So they sit unused while any new industrial land gets purchased further away from the cities---with more road traffic etc--
To this fellow the cost factors we see are more due to the tremendous amount of approvals and studies and EPA requirements than the actual job at hand. Something we need to keep in mind.
BTW--this fellow holds short positions anyways---
Many cities ended up with single family homes ranked up against apartment dwellings that had nothing to do with the retail sectors which then had zilch to do with the commercial industrial sectors.With miles separating them it became a matter of time before one could see huge traffic jams all over the place with next to no mass/public transit to help reduce the traffic. Of course one could blame the average citizen and his love of the car for this one---albeit conveniently forgetting that the planners, themselves, controlled where the housing went
Now, the new issue is that most of our children are not walking to schools because---well--the neighbourhood schools are closing in favour of giant hypertrophied schools that the kids are now bussed to ---20-25 miles away
---and WE say THEY'RE lazy----Any kind of mass transit system must deal also with the rash of NIMBYisms with the attached BANANA (Build Absolutely Nothing Anywhere Near Anything) and the LULU (Locally Undesireable Land Use) that will accompany the whole debate. Right now we see many former industrial sites that can't even be reused for the VERY uses the sites had---industrial. So they sit unused while any new industrial land gets purchased further away from the cities---with more road traffic etc--
To this fellow the cost factors we see are more due to the tremendous amount of approvals and studies and EPA requirements than the actual job at hand. Something we need to keep in mind.
BTW--this fellow holds short positions anyways---
vato loco
Just a Foolish Saint!
Joe I was layed off this October from Pasco County P&R because they clamed they didn't have enough money to keep me. and about two weeks ago on fox 13 St.Pete and Tampa are screaming they will have to cut services cause they don't have enough cash due to no Tax rev. not being there? If we can't keep our Basic County services going.......How are we going to come up with the other 7 billion dollars! for the ChooChoo Twain?
