Help Me Plan My Layout

[gjohnston]

"Personally, I like "L Girder" construction. It's an old method, but it's what I'm used to. I use a jigsaw to cut the plywood where I want the elevation to change, and then use risers to adjust the height. The plywood works well, is sturdy and if you choose the right thickness, bends just enough to make the vertical transitions nice and smooth."

I am familiar the "L Girder" construction method.

Question for you... Is that entire space available for the layout. Where are the doorways?

Also, any idea what percent grade you want to have? Can you do 3%? More?

There are no doors just two entry point on the bottom center and left. Yes that is my entire space. As you know the higher the grade the fewer cars your loco can pull over it. My figure 8 has a grade on the upslope of just over 5 and 1/2% too steep, but it is what I had to do in the space provided. I would like to keep the grade around 2%.

OK, so here's a crazy option... How about a 2 level center with a single layer around the walls.

Let's see if I can explain this. The "T" shape in the center is two levels. That's easy enough to build, you use a scenic divider on the bottom portion to hide the supports that hold up the top portion. The center of the big square could be open for access as well as by being larger it would make that support more stable. So building this one seems easy enough.

So, you start out on the top T. the roundhouse would be up there, and maybe a yard. You head back along the "T" and turn left. You now start wrapping along the walls on a thin shelf layout for some sections, wider in other. The whole time, the track is going downhill.

However... Once again 3rdPlanit introduces some cold hard reality (and proves my earlier plan had a fatal flaw I hadn't found yet.) Even with a continuous 3 percent grade, I only gain 2 feet of separation between the layers. By the time you add in benchwork, that's more like 18 inches, which isn't enough. You'd probably need to go with a 5 percent grade all the way, which is pretty steep, but probably not as steep as what was on your small layout, any idea what that was?

There are two other options though.

1) Build this as shown, but on a single level.

2) Build this as shown, but have a helix in the center of "bulb".


View attachment 56409

Unfortunately I can't access the attachment to visualize the layout.

What I find myself gravitating to is this option with an elevated High Line.



It has some good switching options for changing the route, the roundhouse, a town site, and wide curves. I think it would be a fantastic layout in the space I have.

 

[bob]

What I find myself gravitating to is this option with an elevated High Line.

View attachment 56410

It has some good switching options for changing the route, the roundhouse, a town site, and wide curves. I think it would be a fantastic layout in the space I have.

It is a nice option, and it can be done on one level. Doing a bit of math showed me that there really aren't any good options for a double level layout without using a huge amount of space for a helix, probably where the roundhouse is shown. It would be possible, but complicated and difficult.

I'd start with some variation on this, and once you got the basics going, think about adding in an elevated track section.

 

[tootnkumin]

Bob, I asked Greg early in the thread to provide accurate measurements for the room and the positions of the doorway openings, once he had finished sheeting. He provided that on page 7, post #67. The only practical way to get to a second level in my opinion is via a helix and as Greg has said he wants to also run passenger trains, I figure a radius of at least 28" to be practical. I am also of the opinion that if a multi level layout is planned, all the construction phases should be carried out before any layout work begins. I cited the experience of one of my clubs that has built such a layout and is now in the difficult process of reconstructing the top level (lower down) with the track and scenery in place on the lower level as a reason for very careful planning in these scenarios. Building/altering any upper levels over existing levels is a recipe for headaches and a lot of frustrating work. Bad enough in the large, mostly open space the club has, a nightmare in a small closed in room with narrow aisleways.

 

[bob]

OK, so here's an example of putting in an elevated line. The dark track is the "high line". You'll probably need more like 2-1/2% grade near the roundhouse, but that's still not bad. You'll notice, as we add more tracks, it gets more complicated, but you still have a decent amount of space. The elevate line would take off from them left and climb to cross over the yard tracks.

Just to make it clear how big these curver really are, I added the loop track behind the roundhouse. That's an 18 inch radius curve. Looks small, doesn't it? That tells you how big your curves really are, and show you still have lots of space for industry tracks etc.

 

[bob]

Bob, I asked Greg early in the thread to provide accurate measurements for the room and the positions of the doorway openings, once he had finished sheeting. He provided that on page 7, post #67. The only practical way to get to a second level in my opinion is via a helix and as Greg has said he wants to also run passenger trains, I figure a radius of at least 28" to be practical. I am also of the opinion that if a multi level layout is planned, all the construction phases should be carried out before any layout work begins. I cited the experience of one of my clubs that has built such a layout and is now in the difficult process of reconstructing the top level (lower down) with the track and scenery in place on the lower level as a reason for very careful planning in these scenarios. Building/altering any upper levels over existing levels is a recipe for headaches and a lot of frustrating work. Bad enough in the large, mostly open space the club has, a nightmare in a small closed in room with narrow aisleways.

That makes sense. Also, doing some reading, even a 30" helix seems to be problematic, sounds like 36" radius would be even better. It could be done, place the helix in the left corner where the roundhouse is, but it would add a lot of complexity and hassle as well as taking up a lot of space. Since this is his first big layout, I suspect that single level is the way to go. It would be a good idea to build the layout in segments that could be dismantled later, so if he does decide to go double level, he could save some portions of it.

 

[bob]

Here's an interesting take from Model Railroader on roughly the same space Basically they came up without about the same design, but instead of trying for a 30" radius turnback, they went around walls for the most part. The tracks climb and drop to provide some alternate routes. All in all, a really nice plan.

http://mrr.trains.com/how-to/track-plan-database/2012/06/boston-maine-bedford-division

 

[gjohnston]

OK, so here's an example of putting in an elevated line. The dark track is the "high line". You'll probably need more like 2-1/2% grade near the roundhouse, but that's still not bad. You'll notice, as we add more tracks, it gets more complicated, but you still have a decent amount of space. The elevate line would take off from them left and climb to cross over the yard tracks.

Just to make it clear how big these curver really are, I added the loop track behind the roundhouse. That's an 18 inch radius curve. Looks small, doesn't it? That tells you how big your curves really are, and show you still have lots of space for industry tracks etc.

View attachment 56412

I really like this one. The high line give another route to choose. 2 1/2% grade is very doable. The peninsula on the right could be a town or industry. It might also be possible to put in a Y on the upper left side of the layout that includes part of the staging area. I think a two level layout is problematic, very cool, but a huge leap in terms of complexity.

Bob, Tootnkumin, Iron Horseman, and everyone here have been so kind to share their expertise, time, and effort. At the beginning of this thread when I asked for help I had no idea that I would get such a great response. Now I have a super custom layout designed to fit my space by experts. I am thrilled. The benchwork will likely begin next week.

Thanks to all.

Greg

 

[bob]

The peninsula on the right could be a town or industry.

Exactly. Those tracks are just random, to show that you could have both industries and structures there.

It might also be possible to put in a Y on the upper left side of the layout that includes part of the staging area.

I deleted it while drawing the high line quickly, but the idea is to have a switch coming off of it, parallel to the back wall, that goes to staging. You might even have enough room for a wye, if you made the left curve 18 inch radius or so.

Also, keep in mind, this is purely a rough sketch, showing some concepts. Nothing here is cast in stone. The curves pretty much can only go one place, but other than that, it's wide open. I'd start with that, just lay in your sweeping turns, as wide as you want them. Tack stuff down, see what you think. The yard would be a good starting point since it's so large. Get that roughed in, then start laying out the rest.

I agree on the two level layout, especially after doing the math on what was actually needed to go to the second level. It's really not practical for your space.

 

[tootnkumin]

With the measurements that Greg provided of the finished room, and without the bookshelves taking up space on the left, there is the possibility to move that left side of the layout (especially at the top corner) over. Some access up that side (and I note that in the revised drawing of the room that the left doorway is against the left wall rather than the width of the shelves), all that would be needed there is a "squeeze" space. This should allow a more straight in, wider aisle at the entry, between the "blobs", possibly also allowing the right hand blob to also move to the left a bit. As the plan is, that aisleway is only 2' wide. The doorway opening is measured at 2'6 and that at least should be a minimum anywhere on the layout, 3' if possible.

If there ever were to be a helix, the only place to put it is in the top left corner and large enough to allow internal access from beneath.

Where the roundhouse is (the best place for it as it services the yard), but just another suggestion. Enlarge that runaround track's radius to fit just inside the main tracks, move the TT and roundhouse to either the right or left (to the left would give a better view of operations from within the layout and still have access from the squeeze space). In the room created between the R/house and the runaround track, you would have space for loco servicing sidings.

 

[bob]

Just to give you and idea of how this can be changed up, I did some quick edits. I've shrunk the yard down to four tracks, and made the main double track through that area. On what used to be a locomotive and caboose track is now a station and water tower, along with a team track for local deliveries.

Another change was to install double slip switches on the right side. Now, instead of just connecting to one track you, have a choice of 3 different routes (either main track or cross all the way over). I didn't take the time to make it fit, but you could probably drop a double crossover in on the left where the high line leave the main, adding more options there too.

 

[gjohnston]

Finished the floor today. I went with an acid stain and a acrylic sealer. The directions say that the concrete will take the stain differently, but I was not prepared for how different it was. The concrete was poured on the same day from the same truck, but accepted the stain very differently. It looked like garbage until I put the sealer on it. Some people really like the look, I suppose it will grow on me...... I hope. Anyway it is what it is. The masking paper is still up from when I applied the stain with a yard weed sprayer. If I ever do this again, and I doubt I will, I will apply the stain with a roller. It might turn out with a more uniform color, but maybe not.

 

[bob]

With the measurements that Greg provided of the finished room, and without the bookshelves taking up space on the left, there is the possibility to move that left side of the layout (especially at the top corner) over. Some access up that side (and I note that in the revised drawing of the room that the left doorway is against the left wall rather than the width of the shelves), all that would be needed there is a "squeeze" space. This should allow a more straight in, wider aisle at the entry, between the "blobs", possibly also allowing the right hand blob to also move to the left a bit. As the plan is, that aisleway is only 2' wide. The doorway opening is measured at 2'6 and that at least should be a minimum anywhere on the layout, 3' if possible.

That's a good point. I haven't showed it, but I really think it's important to have some staging on the left side, at least 4 or 5 tracks, if not more. Ideally, it could even be two levels, connecting to both the high line and low tracks. That seems like the most logical place for it and I feel staging is very important, especially given the stated desire to run long trains.

As for the aisle width, the only reason that "point" is there is that I was too lazy to redraw it with a curve. It would be rounded off in practice, and the diagonal jog on the right could be cut back if needed too. If not, it could be used for scenery.

The center aisle is 3 feet wide, and there's a 4 x 4 square where you enter. I used even measurements and made the curves as big as I could, there's no reason you couldn't trim 3 inches from each section if you felt the need to get back to 2-6 or even 3. Pretty sure you'd still have the 30" radius. In practice, you'll want them set back from the edge a bit if possible. Again, this is just conceptual at this point.

Also, I'd suggest creating an access hole (or hatch) in that lower right corner.

If there ever were to be a helix, the only place to put it is in the top left corner and large enough to allow internal access from beneath.

Yes, and after a bit of research, I'm of the opinion it would be too large and too much hassle, even on a layout this big, which surprises me.

Where the roundhouse is (the best place for it as it services the yard), but just another suggestion. Enlarge that runaround track's radius to fit just inside the main tracks, move the TT and roundhouse to either the right or left (to the left would give a better view of operations from within the layout and still have access from the squeeze space). In the room created between the R/house and the runaround track, you would have space for loco servicing sidings.

Yes, that can be jiggled around. I agree that there should be service tracks, ready tracks and possibly a car shop as well. The run around track isn't really needed, I just tossed it in there to show an 18" radius curve for reference. In my head, I keep thinking these curves are like 22 inch radius, when in fact they're much larger, and so there is more room than it appears.

 

[bob]

Finished the floor today. I went with an acid stain and a acrylic sealer. The directions say that the concrete will take the stain differently, but I was not prepared for how different it was. The concrete was poured on the same day from the same truck, but accepted the stain very differently. It looked like garbage until I put the sealer on it. Some people really like the look, I suppose it will grow on me...... I hope. Anyway it is what it is. The masking paper is still up from when I applied the stain with a yard weed sprayer. If I ever do this again, and I doubt I will, I will apply the stain with a roller. It might turn out with a more uniform color, but maybe not.

I like the look. Also, keep in mind that much of it will be covered with the layout and you may well find you want to put done some kind of carpet or padding on the rest for comfort and/or warmth.

I'm confused, where is this in relation to the layout?

View attachment 56419

 

[gjohnston]

I like the look. Also, keep in mind that much of it will be covered with the layout and you may well find you want to put done some kind of carpet or padding on the rest for comfort and/or warmth.

I'm confused, where is this in relation to the layout?

View attachment 56419

One step forward and to the left is the entry to the left side of the layout. Straight ahead and to the left is the central entrance to the layout. Directly ahead is the downstairs bedroom, not part of the layout. One step forward and to the right are the stairs leading to the main floor of the house.

Yes my wife said the same thing about having a throw rug to ease the load on my feet.

 

[beiland]

Bob, The only practical way to get to a second level in my opinion is via a helix and as Greg has said he wants to also run passenger trains, I figure a radius of at least 28" to be practical. I am also of the opinion that if a multi level layout is planned, all the construction phases should be carried out before any layout work begins. I cited the experience of one of my clubs that has built such a layout and is now in the difficult process of reconstructing the top level (lower down) with the track and scenery in place on the lower level as a reason for very careful planning in these scenarios. Building/altering any upper levels over existing levels is a recipe for headaches and a lot of frustrating work.

So if you are going to run some passenger cars you should be looking at minimum 28 inch radius?

And what are the disadvantages of a single track helix verses a double track version?? Seems like a dbl track one takes up a lot more space?

 

[DairyStateDad]

Greg, if there is any way for you to see Bob's alternative configuration on the previous page I would encourage you to check it out. I think it might have some real advantages. I was able to see it so I'm not sure what will make it open properly for you.

Sent from my LG-D850 using Tapatalk

 

[tootnkumin]

So if you are going to run some passenger cars you should be looking at minimum 28 inch radius?

And what are the disadvantages of a single track helix verses a double track version?? Seems like a dbl track one takes up a lot more space?

Well yes it will 'cause of the extra width to accommodate the two tracks. If you determine that a certain radius is the minimum, then that will be the inner track and the outer will therefore have to be a larger radius.

 

[gjohnston]

OK, so here's a crazy option... How about a 2 level center with a single layer around the walls.

Let's see if I can explain this. The "T" shape in the center is two levels. That's easy enough to build, you use a scenic divider on the bottom portion to hide the supports that hold up the top portion. The center of the big square could be open for access as well as by being larger it would make that support more stable. So building this one seems easy enough.

So, you start out on the top T. the roundhouse would be up there, and maybe a yard. You head back along the "T" and turn left. You now start wrapping along the walls on a thin shelf layout for some sections, wider in other. The whole time, the track is going downhill.

However... Once again 3rdPlanit introduces some cold hard reality (and proves my earlier plan had a fatal flaw I hadn't found yet.) Even with a continuous 3 percent grade, I only gain 2 feet of separation between the layers. By the time you add in benchwork, that's more like 18 inches, which isn't enough. You'd probably need to go with a 5 percent grade all the way, which is pretty steep, but probably not as steep as what was on your small layout, any idea what that was?

There are two other options though.

1) Build this as shown, but on a single level.

2) Build this as shown, but have a helix in the center of "bulb".

View attachment 56411

For some reason the attachment is now accessible and I am able to see the picture. What would be the advantages of this layout over the one on post #111? I am thinking single level here too.

 

[tootnkumin]

Bob, looking at your last plan, and assuming they are 12" squares in the graph, then you have allowed 20' as the length of the layout. The measurements of the room that Greg showed back if Page7, post #67 works out to 22'5", give or take. He also though said he wasn't sure about the staging being as I had drawn it, in that position against the end wall, but I can't see any other really practical place to put it. Under the layout and on the underside doesn't provide enough straight track for easy building of trains with easy access, or with an easy method of bringing them up onto the layout, but staging for this layout would be a real advantage, even going as far as to say, a shame not to have it. Double level staging as you have suggested would also have distinct advantages space wise.

I like the addition of the extra hi-line, it creates new visual elements and reinstates in a better manner, my bridge (or more bridges) across the yard/s, but in a better location. (top marks for that ).

 

[Epimetheus]

The floor is beautiful!

If I was getting something to make it easier to stand on concrete, I would choose rubber work mats, the kind with holes through them. Screws, plaster, and wood chips are tough on carpets. The work mat could be hosed off and the bits vacuumed off the concrete floor.

For display I would hide the mats and roll out rug runners.