I just had to send the chassis from my new GP-7 with the QSI sound card back to Walthers because the sound card wasn't making the right sounds and would not reset. Keith from Walthers called me today and told me the sound card was bad so they were sending me a new chassis - thanks, Keith and Walthers. My question is the headlight behavior. The headlight on the short hood goes dark in neutral while the headlight on the long hood stays on and dim. Keith said this was normal for long hood forward operation and, sure enough, there is a microscopic "F" on the long hood. As far as I know, the UP never routinely ran their GP-7's long hood forward and didn't have the long hood designated as front. Keith tells me the production team at Walthers is very careful to only get the right prototype with long hood first headlights. Have I lost my mind or is Walthers right about this? If you buy one of these, make sure to check what end is designated as front on the model as this will determine how your headlight behaves.
UP P2K GP-7-Long Hood Forward?
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NYC_George
Well-Known Member
GP-7 Long hood forward
You may be right. I looked at 3 photos of GP-7's on the Fallen Flags web page and none had a F on the long end or for that matter the short end. I looked at a lot of GP-9's to and one of them had a large F painted on the short end. All the rest had a GP9 painted on the short end. So I guess they used a painted GP9 to mean forward. When I was an engineer if they gave you a hand signal up and down where ever the F was painted that's the direction you would go. A circular motion, you would go the opposite direction of the F. That way it was always the same.
NYC_George
You may be right. I looked at 3 photos of GP-7's on the Fallen Flags web page and none had a F on the long end or for that matter the short end. I looked at a lot of GP-9's to and one of them had a large F painted on the short end. All the rest had a GP9 painted on the short end. So I guess they used a painted GP9 to mean forward. When I was an engineer if they gave you a hand signal up and down where ever the F was painted that's the direction you would go. A circular motion, you would go the opposite direction of the F. That way it was always the same.
NYC_George
Thanks for checking, George. I've been a fan of the UP since the mid-60's and have never seen a mainline GP-7 or GP-9 running long hood first at the head of a train. I've seen them run long hood first on transfer runs but that was just because they couldn't turn them in the yard. I'm curious now as to which ones Walthers have showing the short hood to the front.
In looking at the Wathers catalog, the only GP-7's not obviously labeled with a short hood "F" are the Pennsy and UP models. I can understand the Pennsy because they did run a lot of their earlier Geeps long hood first. I can find no pictures of GP-7's with an "F" on either end but, if the one on the Walthers engine is correct, the "F" is microscopic and probably wouldn't be seen for long on any in-service engine.
I did find one reference from Extra 2200 South that the first 10 GP-7's delivered (100-110) were set up for long hood first operation. This lasted about a year until the control stands were altered and short hood first became the norm. The Walthers model is #105 and, assuming they are modeling an as-delivered engine, long hood first would seem to be correct. Hats off to the Walthers production team because these are the only Geeps I've ever heard of on the UP that ran long hood first. Since I'm modeling the 60's-70's, long hood front operation would not be correct so I guess I just live with the headlight anomaly. I asked Keith if he had any short hood first chassis and he said I was lucky to be getting a replacement in a short turnaround since the QSI sound cards and GP-7 chassis are apparently in short supply.
I did find one reference from Extra 2200 South that the first 10 GP-7's delivered (100-110) were set up for long hood first operation. This lasted about a year until the control stands were altered and short hood first became the norm. The Walthers model is #105 and, assuming they are modeling an as-delivered engine, long hood first would seem to be correct. Hats off to the Walthers production team because these are the only Geeps I've ever heard of on the UP that ran long hood first. Since I'm modeling the 60's-70's, long hood front operation would not be correct so I guess I just live with the headlight anomaly. I asked Keith if he had any short hood first chassis and he said I was lucky to be getting a replacement in a short turnaround since the QSI sound cards and GP-7 chassis are apparently in short supply.
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Alcomotive
Grandson of an ALCO Builder
In 1953 UP ordered 30 GP7s Numbered at first; 700-729 then re-numbered to 100-129 and they were at that time ran long hood forward, when the re-numbering took placed... they were converted to run short hood forward.
In 1954 UP ordered 169 GP9As numbered 130-248 and 250-299. These were all set up to run short hood. Although there has been photos of some GP9s running under different circumstances running long hood forward. Then there were 75 GP9Bs ordered as well and numbered 130B-204B.
This information can be found at the following site and books. Don Strack the UP guru and major contributor to UPHS and author of numerous of books. I have most of his books and as well as other notable authors of the UP that are listed on the UPHS web. Being a member of the UPHS (which I am a Sustaining Member) is a valuable asset as well. See my sig below.
http://utahrails.net/all-time/all-time-loco-chron-02.php
http://www.witherspublishing.com/catalog/product_info.php?manufacturers_id=23&products_id=63
http://www.witherspublishing.com/catalog/product_info.php?manufacturers_id=23&products_id=170
In 1954 UP ordered 169 GP9As numbered 130-248 and 250-299. These were all set up to run short hood. Although there has been photos of some GP9s running under different circumstances running long hood forward. Then there were 75 GP9Bs ordered as well and numbered 130B-204B.
This information can be found at the following site and books. Don Strack the UP guru and major contributor to UPHS and author of numerous of books. I have most of his books and as well as other notable authors of the UP that are listed on the UPHS web. Being a member of the UPHS (which I am a Sustaining Member) is a valuable asset as well. See my sig below.
http://utahrails.net/all-time/all-time-loco-chron-02.php
http://www.witherspublishing.com/catalog/product_info.php?manufacturers_id=23&products_id=63
http://www.witherspublishing.com/catalog/product_info.php?manufacturers_id=23&products_id=170
Thanks, Alco. I had all of Strack's books but gave them away to my local library when I left California since I didn't think I'd ever build another layout. Drat! The information in X2000S is that the 700-729 were not all delivered for long hood forward operation, just the 700-710 (later 100-110) but Strack says they were all delivered for long hood first. The 724 to 729 were actually delivered as the 124 to 129. As delivered, some also had Pyle Gyralites, lowered number boards, and pilot plows, but not all. It appears, the #105, the Walthers model I have, did not have a Gyralite, lowered number boards, or plow.
Apparently, the UP used the GP-7's for some experimentation before standardizing on short hood front, no Gyralites, and pilot plows on the GP-9's. The control stand change took place during 1954 to make all the GP-7's short hood first to match the GP-9's. If that's true, at least the 100-110 ran short first until as late as April or May, 1954, about six months after the renumbering.
So, it appears that the Walthers #105 is still correctly set for long hood forward operation. Of course, that was only true for a short period of time and they spent the vast majority of their lives running short hood first. I wish Walthers had set the electronics for short hood forward so the headlights would behave correctly but Keith says it's set that way in the circuit board with no easy way to change it.
It's all very confusing.
Apparently, the UP used the GP-7's for some experimentation before standardizing on short hood front, no Gyralites, and pilot plows on the GP-9's. The control stand change took place during 1954 to make all the GP-7's short hood first to match the GP-9's. If that's true, at least the 100-110 ran short first until as late as April or May, 1954, about six months after the renumbering.
So, it appears that the Walthers #105 is still correctly set for long hood forward operation. Of course, that was only true for a short period of time and they spent the vast majority of their lives running short hood first. I wish Walthers had set the electronics for short hood forward so the headlights would behave correctly but Keith says it's set that way in the circuit board with no easy way to change it.
It's all very confusing.
HaggisKennedy
Coal Shoveler
Presuming you're doing DCC, you should be able to set the CV to Reverse, which will run the loco short hood forward with the correct lights. I've bought the first run GP7s for GN, and I had to install my own decoders, and had to change the direction to do the 'long hood forward' thing. It's a simple CV change.
I don't know what it does if you're running DC; I don't think I've ever read that part of the manual.....
Kennedy
I don't know what it does if you're running DC; I don't think I've ever read that part of the manual.....
Kennedy
Kennedy,
Not with this model. I've set it so forward is reverse but the headlight behavior doesn't change. The short hood headlight still goes dark in neutral. It's apparently hardwired in the QSI card and you have to get a short hood forward card to change the behavior. Odd but, according to Keith at Walthers, that's the way it is.
Not with this model. I've set it so forward is reverse but the headlight behavior doesn't change. The short hood headlight still goes dark in neutral. It's apparently hardwired in the QSI card and you have to get a short hood forward card to change the behavior. Odd but, according to Keith at Walthers, that's the way it is.
HaggisKennedy
Coal Shoveler
Ugh. Sorry to hear that.
Kennedy
Kennedy
Actually, it had nothing to do with someone in Omaha and the GP-7's being clumsy. The UP ordered 100 more GP-7's in late 1953 but the production at EMD was already being switched to the GP-9 so they got GP-9's instead. EMD made long hood forward control stands an extra cost option since most railroads were already running their GP-7's short hood first. The UP, being cheap like most railroads, decided that converting the existing 30 GP-7's to short hood first operations was cheaper than paying for long hood forward on the 100 new GP-9's. It's just somewhat irritating that Walthers would decide to hardwire the headlight for long hood forward operations for an engine that only operated long hood first for less than a year out of their 25-30 years in service.
Jim, all the QSI's I have, allow for programming/changing the operation of the lights. It is easy to see if you use DecoderPro software, but if you don't, look up the correct CV's in QSI's large User Manual. It's a stack of pages to download and print, but worth doing. (or just view it on your computer)
Rex, I've got the manual right in front of me. You can change how the headlight operates when in neutral (on, off, or dim) and you can change if the rear number boards and headlights stay on dim or are off when the lcomotive is going forward but forward is determined by the QSI board. Changing the CV for forward or reverse has no effect on the fact that long hood headlight always acts like it's running long hood forward. Keith at Walthers said they have to be careful when repairing these GP-7's to make sure they send a front long hood or short front hood chassis or the headlight won't behave correclty and can't be changed by the user. Don't ask me why QSI decided to do this with this one board or why Walthers chose to make an engine that spent 99% of it's life operating short hood forward as a long hood forward engine that lasted less than a year in real life.
Rex, I've looked at that option too but the headlight wires go to surface mount connections right in the middle of the board. I was debating splicing the wire from one headlight into the other but there almost no room to work anything over or around the card and I'm too chicken to try it with a (retail) $225 locomotive. This is the first card that I've seen that doesn't have the normal soldered connections for the headlight and power pickup wires. I suspect that, using surface mount technology, they can use more automation to produce the card and reduce costs but the probem is that what you see is what you get in terms of changing things like headlight connections.
This is the first card that I've seen that doesn't have the normal soldered connections for the headlight and power pickup wires. I suspect that, using surface mount technology, they can use more automation to produce the card and reduce costs but the probem is that what you see is what you get in terms of changing things like headlight connections.