Ran off UP yard by Federal employee.

[jphendren]

I'm not sure if this is the right place to post this or not, but my twin 3 year old boys and I have become interested in not only model HO scale trains, but the real thing. Anyways, we went out looking for a place to watch real trains near our home in Las Vegas, and found a little yard that normally has a couple SD60M's, and a bunch of rolling stock. There are no signs stating "No Tresspassing," or anything telling you to stay away. We have gone out there about four times now and watched them stage trains in this yard, and the UP crew has seemed to not mind our presence, we stay 100' from the trains and crew, and they have even blown the horn on the locomotives for us a few times as they went by and waved. On one visit, a UP security guard came by once and asked us what we were doing there, to which I explained that we enjoyed watching the trains and would keep a respectful distance, he then told us "no problem" and showed us a good place to park.

Well today, my boys and I were out there with my wife, and some women comes pulling up in a plain white SUV with EX plates (GOV'T), and tells us that we are trespassing and we need to leave or UP security will arrest us. My wife then asked her if she worked for the Union Pacific, to which she replied "no," she works for a government agency that monitors the UP. I don't want any problems so we left, but if the UP employees (including security) don't mind us watching, why should this FED harass us?

Tell me what you think.

Jared

 

[macjet]

but if the UP employees (including security) don't mind us watching, why should this FED harass us?

Tell me what you think.

Jared

Welcome to the circle jerk of the Transportation Security Administration (aka Thousands Standing Around). Where no one is too stupid to apply and common sense will absolutely not be tolerated.

 

[julienjj]

dont mind her, shes just a functionnary working for the government, maybe she hate her job and she pass it on the railfans she see

 

[Selector]

You have the right to ask her to identify herself, and for a contact number so that you can verify her authority. In fact, you could also insist that a UP police or City/County police officer attend to verify her authority to remove you from public property.

Note that I am not advising you to resist, or to refuse, but you are well within your rights to ask for a business card or her identification, and if she refuses, you can then refuse (at your peril) to yield your ground until she arrests you or calls someone who can. If she is wrong, you will have to rely on the integrity of her purported colleague in law enforcement to tell her she's wrong.

-Crandell

 

[Rybcon]

The truth is out there.

 

[Dallas Modern HO Scale]

i personally always ask them to identify themselves or i aint movin. railroad property for the main part is only 50' from the center of the tracks, if they threaten me to call up police or local police i say bring it on. and i patiently wait for them to arrive. so far none of the local authorities or up police that have arrived on scene have never made me leave

 

[Trouble]

Sounds like FRA, or homeland security. Rail yard seciroty is kind of a joke, really. Most railroad employees don't care what you do, as long as you don't hang around too close or bug them. But there are people who will cut across the yard, steal from the cars, rip off anything not nailed down (as well as some things that are), mess with the equipment, play with switches, or just get in the way. Nothing scarier than running down a track and having some guy cutting through the yard stumble in front of you! Some stuff that disapears, like signs, switch reflectors, and so on are not things most common thieves will take, which leads to someone who really likes trains finding themselves a little souvenir.
Furthermore, especially on the UP, liability is a major issue. If something happens, from a chemical leak to someone falling and breaking their big toe, the railroad is going to pay big time. Not only the settlement, but, as it was explained to us, in fines to the government for not securing the property against tresspassers. I'm sure you were all behaving, being safe, and all that. But the government inspectors do not screw around. I have personally seen the entire Proviso diesel ramp shut down and several dozen locomotives "impounded" for minor issues; effectively shutting down the yard! And the homeland security guys are even worse. Leave a switch unlocked, and you are in big, big, big trouble if they catch it.
You don't wander around your neighbors yards if they don't have a locked barb wire topped fence and NO TRESPASSING signs every five feet, right? If you don't want you and your kids getting fingerprinted, stay off the property. You break the law, be prepared for someone to eventually catch you. And be glad, you could have ended up at GITMO! Just my two cents, be careful out there

 

[CSXPAID]

I got run off csx property and I work there!!!! A few years ago there was 6 brand new SD-70ACe locos sitting on a yard track and I just wanted a pic

 

[grande man]

Well, I for one feel much "safer" now that our wonderful govt has put a stop to you and your family watching trains... Its for the children. Stinkin, worthless bureaucrats.

Be sure to watch from public property in the future. Times have sadly changed.

 

[blownoutcylinder]

Yet another fine example of what happens when the criminal element is used to define what we as reasonable people can do.

Fear and Paranoia at its bureaucratic best....

 

[Beachbum]

There are many stories like this floating around. It seems that the best approach is to cooperate, explain what you're doing, but get the officer's name and badge number. Then call their supervisor, police chief, or whoever and explain the situation and ask what law(s) you were breaking and / or where exactly you CAN be.

Some people advocate arguing about rights, daring them to cuff you, etc. My nephew is a cop and some of his ummmm... enthusiastic... coworkers are happy to toss somebody who they consider to be a smart*ss into the back of the car and take them in, justifiably or not.

A buddy of mine is an aviation freak and used to sit in O'Hare terminals and watch planes (pre-9/11). One day a gate agent called him in. He was escorted by federal agents into a nice conference room where they asked him a lot of questions. After 30 minutes or so he thought to show the Feds his pilot's license and he was immediately released.

Could he / you sue for false arrest? Maybe. You want to deal with all that? Your call.

 

[West Virginia Midland Man]

"Why are you here?"

"That's above your pay grade. You can call Langley and ask, but they will tell you to mind your own business. Have a nice day."

 

[blownoutcylinder]

One could argue with the person. I've done it once, succeeded in arguing my case, and later on found that he was let go. Too aggressive for the job was what I got from a supervisor. I just happened to be on park land when he tried to tell me it wasn't park land. Showed him a sign right in front by some bushes---shut him right up, that. I did get his supervisors name before he tried that---
---and reported him.

Couple of days later, found out about the above----mmmmm--I wonder

I do think though, that we may be heading to a point wherein we all may need spotting scopes soon-----

 

[jphendren]

"Be sure to watch from public property in the future. Times have sadly changed."

Yeah, we were definitely on UP property, but the crew did not seem to mind, and security had already talked to us. I thought that we were in the clear. I am definitely NOT going to challenge any authority figure, I don't need that headache. I will just leave. Boy did I get some nice shots before we were told to leave. They were moving rolling stock from one track to another with a GEVO! Normally they use SD60M's in this particular yard, but yesterday they had a GEVO and a SD60M working together.

Back in the 70's and 80's, my dad and I would go down to the Las Vegas yard and walk around just watching/looking, nobody EVER hassled us. I guess you can't do that anymore. I wish that I knew which agency she worked for, but all she mentioned was that she was there to observe the crew, and she worked for the agency that monitors the railroads.

Does railroad security have the authority to let you be on railroad property?

Jared

 

[jayl1]

"Be sure to watch from public property in the future. Times have sadly changed."


Does railroad security have the authority to let you be on railroad property?

Jared

Once upon a time one could get a release on some roads from the railroad police which usually came with a "have fun but stay off the rails & trains" speech. Some railroads would always say no though.

 

[vato loco]

I try to do my rail fanning from public road ways or privite land beside the tracks with permission from the land owner AKA public property. If you see house's along a bussy right of way ask the land owner if you can sit in the yard to watch trains go by! if its a yes, The police to my knowlege can bug you but can't ask you to leave unless it's the wish of the land owner! I know of some trackes here 50' from public sidewalks to snap pic's from! I have never been bothered! I think you just ran across a Government employee feeling her oats! I say Blow it off and find another Public spot. Then try to get written permission if possible! and have fun

 

[MRLdave]

If you were, in fact, 100' off railroad property, then there should be no problem. On the other hand, if you were only 100' from the TRAINS and actually on railroad property, then they were well within their rights......railroad workers technically have very little authority though...for example they can't legally wave you thru a crossing if the lights are flashing, even if it's THEIR train that's causing the lights. I doubt they have the authority to allow you on the railroads property either, although I'm sure most of them don't care, and probably think it's as dumb as you do. Most of this is a result of 9/11, and now is a matter of national security. Sadly, I see their point, especially around yards.........you could do a lot of damage in a hurry if you knew what you were doing...and not just to the railroad property. Carloads of gasoline, clorine gas, propane, acid, ect. could be a tempting target for someone looking to cause some mayhem. Not to mention just sending an idling engine off on an unmanned adventure. Guess it's better to be safe than sorry and just chase EVERYONE off.

 

[MGWSY]

railroad workers technically have very little authority though...for example they can't legally wave you thru a crossing if the lights are flashing, even if it's THEIR train that's causing the lights.

Actually we can and do have the authority to do it at least on the RR I worked on. I have done it lots of times and even asked the train master if we can and he said yes. The train crew can let cars pass as well as track inspectors, signal maintainers, road foreman, Etc. The only people that do not have the authority are outside contractors working for the RR and they need a RR employee with them while on RR property.

 

[UP2CSX]

First, a vehicle with "EX" plates in Nevada is not a Federal government plate. It's a state issued license plate to vehicles owned by a myriad of government agencies, from the water department to the police. It just shows the vehicle is exempt from paying yearly registration fees. It confers no law enforcement authority whatever.

Second, any time you are accosted by a person in plainclothes, claiming to be a law enforcement officer of some type, ask to see their ID card. Don't just see a badge - you can buy those on e-bay. Take note of the agency, name, and any ID number. Politely ask her if she has a business card. Get the exempt plate number. Explain you have your wife and kids with you and you want to make sure they are safe. Any real peace officer will be more than happy to comply, assuming you keep a civil attitude. Once you've done this, get in your vehicle and leave.

It's not clear from your post that this woman was claiming to be a peace officer, but she at least implied she had some authority. If it's not clear to you that she was indeed a peace officer, immediately call 911 on your cell phone, once you're on public property. Explain to the dispatcher that you were just accosted by a person in plain clothes stating, or implying, she was a peace officer. Give her the exempt tag so she can run it and find out what agency it belongs to. Ask for marked unit to meet you and investigate. We took these calls very seriously, since some people rig up vehicles like Suburbans and Crown Vics to look like unmarked police cars, including fake exempt tags, and accost citizens, claiming to be "officers" of some type. Most are harmless wannabes but some are dangerous, and we wanted to get them off the street.

Once a marked unit shows up, give them the details of what happened, point out the other vehicle if it's still there, or give them the direction of travel of the vehicle has left. Let them take it from there. You can always call in a day or two and ask for a followup to your complaint.

In Nevada, the Union Pacific police are just that, police officers. They have all the same rights and responsibilities of any peace officer anywhere in the state. It's always up to an officer's discretion and judgment what law he or she wants to enforce. Some railroad police officers are railfans themselves and tend to give real fans, especially with a wife and/or kids along, a break. Others are just hard asses and will throw you off the property, period. In each case, the officer is acting within the scope of their duties.

As a final word, it's always better to watch and take pictures from public property. If you are on railroad property, you can expect problems. You still have the right to peacefully assemble on public property and do what you please, assuming you aren't blocking traffic or presenting any other hazard. A city or or county officer may stop and question you to find out what you're doing, but they will go on their way once they are assured you're not engaging in criminal activity. A railroad police officer, while they can enforce state criminal laws off railroad property, has no authority to tell you can't take pictures from public property.

 

[jeffrey-wimberly]

I had some clown identifying himself as railroad security telling me that I couldn't watch the trains from a public parking lot at a museum because it was on railroad property. I demanded to see his ID and he refused so I refused to budge. He then wanted to see what I had been taking pictures of. Sorry, no ID, no can see. It was then that a city cop pulled up and asked what was going on. I told him and the guy said that I was lying. However I know quite a few of the cops and they weren't buying it. I don't know what they did with him, probably turned him over to the railroad so they could press charges. As far as I know they don't have any security people here to patrol the yard and according to the cop I was most definitely on public property.