Newbie questions!


P

Psapple83

Member
Hey everyone, I am brand new to all of this. Wanting to get into model railroading for myself, but also for the future of doing this type of stuff with my son. That said, I don't want to just buy anything just to have it, I really want to do it right.

As I look around, I see things like the EZ track or other integrated roadbed tracks. These seem cheap and trashy to me. I am nervous that if I do end up buying a set with ez track, I am stuck with EZ track if I want to expand?

In addition to this, I am unclear of how to tell if a loco is DC or DCC as you are purchasing it, and does this affect the type of track I buy?
I am thinking of starting off with something like http://www.bachmanntrains.com/home-usa/products.php?act=viewProd&productId=3661
and bypassing the track it comes with altogether. Does this mean I would have to completely buy a new controller as well- if I were to, lets say, buy some atlas track?

Ideally, the way I'd like to spend my money is initially most of my money would be spent on the actual setup (track, landscape, etc.) and have a cheaper loco to run on it, text, etc. and once I am to a point where I like where things are going with my first track setup then I would buy a more expensive loco.

Thoughts? Ideas? I am brand new, open to any advice and excited to get into it, but I'm also a planner and want to do it right.
To my knowledge there are no hobby stores (other than hobby lobby) in my area. Sheboygan, WI.

Thanks!
 
Hi, and welcome to the world's greatest hobby.

EZ-Track, Unitrack, and others are NOT cheap. They are good enough products, but also much more costly than flextrack. So, not only are they well made and reasonably durable, with perhaps the exception of EZ-Track turnouts (in my now dated experience, they may have changed for the better), but they really ain't cheap...they cost a lot more per unit length or appliance than comparable items from Atlas, Peco, etc.

So, while the sectional track is easily hooked up, it has a rigidity built-in. You can only configure it so many ways due to the few radius curvature items they offer. With flextrack, either 3' or 39" lengths, they flex into an infinite variety of curves. Whatever YOU want. And what is more, you can buy 4 lengths of flex track for the cost of an EZ-Track #5 turnout. You can buy two Atlas Customline #5 turnouts for the cost of an EZ-Track #5.

In case you are wondering, a turnout is what many would call a 'switch'. We use turnout in the hobby because we also use toggle switches to change track polarity. We avoid confusion by calling turnouts the same name the real world civil engineers call them, and leave the more common 'switch' to electrical switches.

The scale locomotives operate on DC or DCC powered rails. The rails don't know the difference, but the motor in the locomotive will. If you don't have a decoder installed, the motor will buzz and sing to the pulsed signal that DCC systems apply in their power stream. It generally is not very good for the drive mechanisms.

Does a locomotive necessarily work on DCC? No. It must have a decoder installed to make sense of the signal that is imprinted on the square wave AC current. That's what DCC is, not DC, but a square wave alternating current. The decoder can speak the language of the signal and knows what to do. One thing it does is parcel a pulsed DC signal only, essentially rectifying the AC, to the motor. The motor can use this much more smoothly and silently, so a DCC equipped locomotive that sings and buzzes has problems.

You can sometimes buy DC locomotives for a really good price, and have someone nearby install a decoder for quite a bit less than buying the very same locomotive with 'DCC on board' or 'DCC-equipped'. Shop around, especially on-line.

If a locomotive has a decoder installed at the factory, it should say so in the information for that locomotive. DCC ready does not mean the same as DCC-equipped. DCC ready means it is wired for safe installation of a decoder so that the decoder doesn't fry upon power-up the first time and let out its magic smoke.

My very strong, honest, and experienced advice to buying a cheap locomotive? Burn the money to heat your home instead. Much more bang for the buck. I'll get lots of support from others who respond here. Just don't go cheap on the one item that brings the whole deal to life for you. In fact, just as for cheap department store telescopes for the little guy for Christmas....DON'T waste your enthusiasm and dollars. Spend the money on good engineering and materials for every hobby. Period. Start with the locomotive, and learn about track laying and mountain building as you go for the comparatively little enjoyment they will bring to you for the first year.

I'm serious.
 
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to expound on what selector put very well, if you go cheap on the locomotive like toyrus cheap well you will be done with this hobby in 20 minutes, start out with bachmann or atlas or proto 2000 DCC ready they are cheaper then the complete DCC equipped,& ALL YOU HAVE TO DO IS PULL OUT THE DUMMY DECODER & PRESS IN THE NEW ONE :) EASY HUH, BUT IM GETTING AHEAD OF MYSELF SO AFTER YOU GET A DECENT LOCO IF YOUR BUILDING A LAYOUT GET ATLAS FLEX TRACK ,SORRY ABOUT THE CAPS BUT MY KEYBOARD IS SCREWED UP & WELCOME TO THE GREATEST HOBBY :)
 
So that said. I understand where you are coming from. I am so new at this I don't even know what to spend on a locomotive. For example, the set I linked has an EMD GP40 loco. Is that a decent one? Looks like it goes for about $40-50 on ebay
 
Psapple83 said:
So that said. I understand where you are coming from. I am so new at this I don't even know what to spend on a locomotive. For example, the set I linked has an EMD GP40 loco. Is that a decent one? Looks like it goes for about $40-50 on ebay
Click to expand...

I'll also add that this is a DCC equipped loco from my research.
 
Do what I did to get re-started in this hobby. Buy an Atlas Trainman set. Comes with a loop of track, powerpack, is expandable, is very high quality, has everything you need to get started, and is DCC ready if you choose to go that path.

This will also allow you to follow the wise advice of the gents above.
 
bigB said:
Do what I did to get re-started in this hobby. Buy an Atlas Trainman set. Comes with a loop of track, powerpack, is expandable, is very high quality, has everything you need to get started, and is DCC ready if you choose to go that path.

This will also allow you to follow the wise advice of the gents above.
Click to expand...

This seems like a great idea.

Is the Atlas true track (which comes with the set you recommended) able to connect with flex track?
 
The train sets with Bachmann Spectrum locomotives will generally be okay. The straight Bachmann series are a cut down, and historically are not well regarded by their buyers once they learn what else there is in the hobby.

The same can be said for Life Like. Atlas Trainman are better than Bachmann, and about as good as the Bachmann Spectrum brand.

Once you get some skills and experience, yes, flex track can be mated to sectional track, but it does take patience and know-how. It will not join cleanly because of the engineering involved. Snap track/sectional track is meant to be shoved together in pieces quickly, whereas flex track has to be placed on roadbed or some other prepared surface and shaped into curves and tangents between the curves. Flex is more involved, but once you catch on to it, there's no going back. So, if you opt for the Trainman set, you'll be better off using the same track elements, also available from Atlas and e-tailers or local train hobby shops if you need more to create a larger track system.

Note that you will need to have a decoder installed if you opt for DCC, but you'll also need to purchase a separate DCC control system, often for not less than about $150 for a basic starter set, maybe $170. The Bachmann set you linked to is straight DC, and probably comes with a normally MSRP $40-50 power controller. For a loop or oval with a siding or a stub track to an 'industry', it will work fine. If you make the loop larger than about 15' total length or circumference, expect the locomotive to slow on the far end away from where you hook up the wires. The voltage drops in the rails the same way it drops in an extension cord. The longer the current has to go, the further the voltage drops, and it's not like you have 114 volts to play with at the rail. You have a maximum of about 16 volts, so even a volt or two at the rail will see your locomotive slow noticeably. If you end up over time with the same locomotive set and power pack, but you add about three or four times the length in joined rails as come with the set, you will have to splice in another set of feeder wires at the terminals to the power pack. nothing higher than 20 gauge, and run them to the far side of the loop or oval to restore the voltage fully so that your locomotive runs at a constant speed. As a rough rule, a single pair of 2' 20 gauge feeder wires should feed no more than 12 feet of rails for optimal performance. Run into 16' and more with a single pair of wires to the track system and you can expect noticeable degradation.

There is a lot to learn, I know. One thing you need to learn is to take a breath and put your money where it counts, and the same applies to time invested. Be patient for a bit longer, do some reading, ask around, and be prepared to endure some learning moments after you have spent the money. The big message, though, is DON'T SPEND A WAD OF DOUGH NOW! Okay, get the set, it can always be converted later to DCC if it is a keeper and works well and smoothly. You can always discard the track later for the little invested in it, but you are likely to tire with the short roundy-round oval in short order. The hobby requires a serious investment in learning, energy, and money. It is complex and demanding if you want to end up with something you can be proud of, that endures, that holds your and your children's interests for more than 10 minutes at a time by the time a year has passed, and that looks like it is worth much more than you actually spent.

A suggestion: go to modeltrainstuff.com and take a look at HO locomotives. Athearn Genesis, Atlas Gold, Bachmann Spectrum, Walthers Proto 2000, and Broadway Limited International all make nice steamers and diesels. Also, Intermountain makes good diesels. Look for deals, and see if you can't scarf three or four items of rolling stock to trail the locomotive. A diesel won't likely tow a caboose, so keep that for steamers.

Also, take a look at trainworld. Those two sites move a lot of stuff because they are reliable and cheap, and because the stuff they move is of good quality.

On last thing: whatever that Bachmann set is, double it and add $100 more to get a good DCC set PLUS the DCC controller you'll need. Just so you have an idea what the hobby can cost. However, if you shop around, especially at those two places, they may have train sets of comparable or better quality, say a Spectrum set, (I know they do, it's the one called "The Cavalier" with a Norfolk & Western streamlined J Class steamer) that may include a DCC controller, a very basic EZ-Command. It's worth a look.
 
Selector and others have given you excellent advice. One thing I would add is to check on any train shows, fairs or swap meets in your area. Often times you can get a very good deal at these shows.

Be patient above all. I was planning on starting my layout this fall in a room that I would have just for my trains. But Mr. Murphy has introduced himself and it looks like I will be waiting until next fall.:mad: Oh well, that just gives me more time to buy new equipment and do better planning...............both very important things in this hobby. And both enjoyable as well, though it doesn't compare to running trains.:p Good luck and welcome to the hobby.
 
Selector said:
The train sets with Bachmann Spectrum locomotives will generally be okay. The straight Bachmann series are a cut down, and historically are not well regarded by their buyers once they learn what else there is in the hobby.

The same can be said for Life Like. Atlas Trainman are better than Bachmann, and about as good as the Bachmann Spectrum brand.

Once you get some skills and experience, yes, flex track can be mated to sectional track, but it does take patience and know-how. It will not join cleanly because of the engineering involved. Snap track/sectional track is meant to be shoved together in pieces quickly, whereas flex track has to be placed on roadbed or some other prepared surface and shaped into curves and tangents between the curves. Flex is more involved, but once you catch on to it, there's no going back. So, if you opt for the Trainman set, you'll be better off using the same track elements, also available from Atlas and e-tailers or local train hobby shops if you need more to create a larger track system.

Note that you will need to have a decoder installed if you opt for DCC, but you'll also need to purchase a separate DCC control system, often for not less than about $150 for a basic starter set, maybe $170. The Bachmann set you linked to is straight DC, and probably comes with a normally MSRP $40-50 power controller. For a loop or oval with a siding or a stub track to an 'industry', it will work fine. If you make the loop larger than about 15' total length or circumference, expect the locomotive to slow on the far end away from where you hook up the wires. The voltage drops in the rails the same way it drops in an extension cord. The longer the current has to go, the further the voltage drops, and it's not like you have 114 volts to play with at the rail. You have a maximum of about 16 volts, so even a volt or two at the rail will see your locomotive slow noticeably. If you end up over time with the same locomotive set and power pack, but you add about three or four times the length in joined rails as come with the set, you will have to splice in another set of feeder wires at the terminals to the power pack. nothing higher than 20 gauge, and run them to the far side of the loop or oval to restore the voltage fully so that your locomotive runs at a constant speed. As a rough rule, a single pair of 2' 20 gauge feeder wires should feed no more than 12 feet of rails for optimal performance. Run into 16' and more with a single pair of wires to the track system and you can expect noticeable degradation.

There is a lot to learn, I know. One thing you need to learn is to take a breath and put your money where it counts, and the same applies to time invested. Be patient for a bit longer, do some reading, ask around, and be prepared to endure some learning moments after you have spent the money. The big message, though, is DON'T SPEND A WAD OF DOUGH NOW! Okay, get the set, it can always be converted later to DCC if it is a keeper and works well and smoothly. You can always discard the track later for the little invested in it, but you are likely to tire with the short roundy-round oval in short order. The hobby requires a serious investment in learning, energy, and money. It is complex and demanding if you want to end up with something you can be proud of, that endures, that holds your and your children's interests for more than 10 minutes at a time by the time a year has passed, and that looks like it is worth much more than you actually spent.

A suggestion: go to modeltrainstuff.com and take a look at HO locomotives. Athearn Genesis, Atlas Gold, Bachmann Spectrum, Walthers Proto 2000, and Broadway Limited International all make nice steamers and diesels. Also, Intermountain makes good diesels. Look for deals, and see if you can't scarf three or four items of rolling stock to trail the locomotive. A diesel won't likely tow a caboose, so keep that for steamers.

Also, take a look at trainworld. Those two sites move a lot of stuff because they are reliable and cheap, and because the stuff they move is of good quality.

On last thing: whatever that Bachmann set is, double it and add $100 more to get a good DCC set PLUS the DCC controller you'll need. Just so you have an idea what the hobby can cost. However, if you shop around, especially at those two places, they may have train sets of comparable or better quality, say a Spectrum set, (I know they do, it's the one called "The Cavalier" with a Norfolk & Western streamlined J Class steamer) that may include a DCC controller, a very basic EZ-Command. It's worth a look.
Click to expand...

Whew my mind is spinning. I have literally 20 tabs of internet content trying to look into all of this!

You said that Atlas Trainman was a decent set, as did BigB. Would that be a decent starter set?
In addition, as I read the specs on the locomotive, it says that it has an NMRA 8-pin plug for DCC.
Does this mean its just DCC ready and I need to purchase and install my own decoder once I go DCC?

Moving on to the Spectrum Cavalier, I see that its DCC equipped, but the controller looks like all of the other sets I was looking at. Meaning I would need to purchase a DCC controller set separately?

Edit: Maybe I'm overthinking this. If you all were to start from nothing knowing what you know, would you go DCC immediately?
 
Start with the Atlas Trainman set. Everything in it is compatible with flex track and every other manufacturers stuff. Everything in it is upgradeable. DCC is a great thing, but before I would make the investment in DCC, I would make sure I'm in the hobby to stay. If you're lucky enough to have a local hobby shop (LHS on these forums), get to know the staff for good advice. Keep in mind that they will probably want you to convert to DCC immediately because they make more money that way.
willie
 
Psapple83 said:
Whew my mind is spinning. I have literally 20 tabs of internet content trying to look into all of this!

You said that Atlas Trainman was a decent set, as did BigB. Would that be a decent starter set?
In addition, as I read the specs on the locomotive, it says that it has an NMRA 8-pin plug for DCC.
Does this mean its just DCC ready and I need to purchase and install my own decoder once I go DCC?

Moving on to the Spectrum Cavalier, I see that its DCC equipped, but the controller looks like all of the other sets I was looking at. Meaning I would need to purchase a DCC controller set separately?

Edit: Maybe I'm overthinking this. If you all were to start from nothing knowing what you know, would you go DCC immediately?
Click to expand...

Yes, the Trainman would be a good starter set. The Bachmann Cavalier, if you think you would like steam, is a good deal, but you would still need a basic DCC controller station to get the intended use of the decoder already installed, a basic decoder. The power pack supplied is DC, which the decoder can sense and still use. You just won't get the DCC capabilities that the decoder can provide you. The locomotive will still move and speed up as you dial in power on the controller. You won't be able to set inertia and momentum, for example, or the change the start voltage to get smooth starts. You can only do that with a full-capability DCC controller.

Compare prices between the two sets. Both come with rails, a power pack, a locomotive, and cars to trail the locomotive. The Bachmann has a decoder in it already, so that would be a $20 cost included. Note that sound decoders are at least $60, and the good ones are $90 and on up.

So, maybe now is a good time to think of the answer to a question you didn't know to ask yourself...part of the learning about which we cautioned you. The question is very basic, but quite important to your 'theme' in the hobby. What era are you interested in modelling eventually, if it goes that far? Do you, or maybe more importantly your boy, prefer modern diesels, or maybe just old-fashioned steam locomotives, or would you both like what is called the 'transition era' where diesels were replacing steam between 1939-ish and 1960? Your thoughtful response to this question will make your choice of train set rather obvious.

Remember, "DCC-ready" means the diesel is engineered for modern hobbyist use. It just needs a decoder installed, usually just a plug and play. Sometimes, though, for earlier versions made near 2005, DCC-Ready meant that you had to hard wire the decoder, but that the motor's brushes were already deemed to be isolated from the frame of the locomotive. You won't smell any magic smoke.

DCC-equipped, or just DCC sometimes, means a basic decoder is on board which will move the locomotive and control the directional headlights, depending on direction of movement.
 
"So, maybe now is a good time to think of the answer to a question you didn't know to ask yourself...part of the learning about which we cautioned you. The question is very basic, but quite important to your 'theme' in the hobby. What era are you interested in modelling eventually, if it goes that far? Do you, or maybe more importantly your boy, prefer modern diesels, or maybe just old-fashioned steam locomotives, or would you both like what is called the 'transition era' where diesels were replacing steam between 1939-ish and 1960? Your thoughtful response to this question will make your choice of train set rather obvious."

I have been pondering this question for the last hour. I literally have never thought of it until you mentioned it, so thank you.
I think that there are things I like about both, which sort of probably puts me into the transition era. I suppose I never thought of the actual dating of the landscape/houses, etc. in my mind-layout, but was rather focusing on a highly technical and fun track layout. I am going to continue to research this, and I think the learning about those eras/themes will be a fun thing.

I suppose then, however, that the Diesel sets I chose (such as the Trainman) wouldn't go with the transition era.

Back to your earlier statement about sound decoders- is that a hard wire in or plugnplay? or does the sound decoder include the DCC capability of a regular decoder and just replace it?
 
Psapple83 said:
I suppose then, however, that the Diesel sets I chose (such as the Trainman) wouldn't go with the transition era.

Back to your earlier statement about sound decoders- is that a hard wire in or plugnplay? or does the sound decoder include the DCC capability of a regular decoder and just replace it?
Click to expand...


The Trainman diesel (GP38-2 or RS11) sets feature what is known as 2nd generation diesel power. That is, in modern standards (3rd to 4th generation depending on your perspective), they are still in use largely today in some Class I railroads (NS, BNSF, UP, CSX) but dont represent the latest technology. So, it is a good place to start in my opinion bc you have everything you need to get started in a quality product that is expandable and DCC ready if you want to dive in and go that route. Additionally, if you decide you want to go to Steam power or 1st generation diesels, the Atlas units are always nice running engines and therefore you can easily resell it on a place like this forum or other sites (Ebay if you must).

Most sound decoders replace the original light board (what the manufacturer installs to make the locomotive DCC-ready). Aka most are a board replacement/drop in type. But they are also available in many formats like with 8 or 9pin adapters that allow them to be 'plug n played' directly into the existing lightboard with its 8 or 9pin female outlet. I will caution you though, and I feel most would agree, that DCC sound installs, particularly to someone brand new to the hobby, are challenging; and the biggest challenge usually lies in where to accomodate the speaker, not the decoder.

Look, I know this all seems like alot and it can be overwhelming...and it is and can be. I was right where you were 5 years ago. My advice is to have fun with it and use this site as a source of info. There are alot, I mean alot of sharp, saavy modelers on here that have helped me a great deal, provided me tremendous input, saved me $, and given me great advice. Youre doing the right thing by asking good questions and learning.

Again, I would do what I did, consider the Atlas Trainman sets as a relatively economical way to see if you want to go further with the hobby. Worst case, you can pack it all up and resell it for a decent recoupment if your interests change. Or youll get hooked and be in real trouble...like the rest of us.:D
Hey, it is a hobby, and like many of them, it is expensive. But hey so are motorcycles, boats, flyfishing, etc.

Brad
 
Probably, yes you can just remove the existing light board and plug in a suitable decoder. Note that the decoder should be kept away from a heat source, especially the motor, and away from rotating parts. It produces lots of heat by itself, so ideally it should be placed in such a way that it is secured, but also can get some space around it for convection cooling. It is worse for sound decoders, another ball of wax. For sound decoders, which are substantially larger, you also need a speaker someplace. The speaker must be properly baffled to keep a sealed space behind its rim, so even more room. Thankfully, most modern diesel locomotives have a designated space, either in the nose, under the cab, under the shell roof, or very commonly in the large fuel tank slung between the trucks.

It is sometimes the case that the decoder manufacturers make their decoders to fit specific installations as essentially a press fit. So, if the light board can be lifted out of a slot and unplugged, some manufacturers have decoders that fit the same way. You can check with TCS, NCE, Digitrax, MRC, and Lenz, all of whom make decoders of various kinds, sizes, capabilities.
 
OK good to know about the sound decoder. I know I'm nowhere near it, but it sure seems like a fun thing to have on your locomotive.

Thanks for all of the help guys. I really appreciate it. Its given me a lot to think about and has been very helpful. I literally know no one that is into model railroading, so I'm starting what hopefully will be a long time family tradition, as well as a huge learning curve.

Its nice to know that I have a place to ask the questions I can't find the answers for online. Google is only so helpful to a point!
 
One last question, for those that are still listening.

Any reason not to go with the Bachmann Digital Commander Deluxe Set over the Atlas Trainman sets? I know this is beginner DCC, but would get me at least dipped into DCC....Also its one of the few sets that comes with nickel-silver track from what I could find...seems like everyone's including steel. Also comes with 2 DCC equipped locos. I looked into something like the NCE power cab and the description said it can only run 3 locomotives at once, from my understanding this runs 9 DCC + 1 DC (given that you have enough power)
 
Psapple83 said:
One last question, for those that are still listening.

Any reason not to go with the Bachmann Digital Commander Deluxe Set over the Atlas Trainman sets? I know this is beginner DCC, but would get me at least dipped into DCC....Also its one of the few sets that comes with nickel-silver track from what I could find...seems like everyone's including steel. Also comes with 2 DCC equipped locos. I looked into something like the NCE power cab and the description said it can only run 3 locomotives at once, from my understanding this runs 9 DCC + 1 DC (given that you have enough power)
Click to expand...

No, no reason not to go with that one if you want to. Atlas Trainman products in my opinion are of higher quality and also the Trainman set comes with a loop of nickel silver Code 83 track. The NCE PowerCab is an excellent system. It is the one I started with and still have although I have greatly expanded on it. I highly recommend it.
 
Psapple83 said:
I looked into something like the NCE power cab and the description said it can only run 3 locomotives at once, from my understanding this [Bachmann] runs 9 DCC + 1 DC (given that you have enough power)
Click to expand...
I guess it depends on what one considers running locomotives at once. I am a firm believer in having one control for each train rolling on the layout at any given time. What they are talking about is getting one train moving with the controller and then switching channels to another locomotive and getting it rolling, etc. One then has to switch back and forth. In this regard all the DCC systems are the same, but it is also why one can add additional throttles.

I don't know if what you learned about the NCE power cab means it can have only two more throttles or if it just means it can only switch between three. My NCE is the PRO cab. I have not yet encountered any sort of limit with it. I've been at sessions where we have had over 24 trains plus running simultaneously.

As for the Bachmann vs Atlas sets I have no first hand experience with either. I have always trusted Atlas (45+ years now) in both HO and N scales. Bachmann in the last two decades has really stepped up their game especially with the Spectrum units. So I would be torn. Two loco's and a starter DCC system is pretty tempting. On the other hand while their EZ-track is easy and nickel silver it is NOT cheap and not nearly as flexible as normal Atlas track. If the Atlas set comes with Atlas "TruTrack" I find that even less flexible. Straight Atlas track without the built on roadbed still wins the sectional track contest every time. Don't know if this babbling is helping or not. I would not be afraid of the Bachmann set as I would have 20 years ago.
 
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