New to DCC

[lpd4005]

Hello everyone,

I’m Robert, I am seriously looking at getting back into the hobby as I have not been model railroading since 1997 when I use to be a member of a RR club in Texas. Now im in Michigan, I have found through exhausting research that there are not any clubs that are economically viable for me to join due to distance / time so I have been researching for over a year now on building my own from scratch.

I am planning on building layout # 58 the Grandview Western R.R. from the model railroaders 101 track plans for model railroaders.

I am planning on using Atlas code 100 track (due to cost I could not go with code 83 as I wanted) and I am planning on using the Digitrax super chief 5-amp starter set. I have a box full of 80’s era Athern cars and diesel engines that I plan to convert from their original DC setup to DCC.

The reason I am writing is in reference to DCC and signaling. I have purchased a number of kalmbach books and cruised through Digitrax web sites and others to learn more about DCC particularly about the add on stuff. So far I think I can figure out how to set up a basic DCC with the Digitrax equipment, but I also want to add a few tortoise switch machine fro far reaches of the layout and build it with anticipation to add functioning signal system. It is the stationary decoders, occupancy and signal equipment that I am getting confused on.

[FONT=&quot]Is there a place I can look or someone that has a few moments help weed out how to stand up and functioning signal system on my future layout? I have no plans to add any computers to it, only operate it through the Digitrax super chief setup with the majority of my turnouts being operated by ole fashion manual ground throws, thanks ahead of time… p.s. below is the drawing of my future layout...
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[DCCinstalled]

Hey Robert,

Have looked into the DCC specialties Hare at all? The hare is a stationary decoder that is designed to work with the tortoise. They will take care of the remote switches for you.

I'm sure some of the other guys will be able to join in on the signaling aspect...

Keep us all updated on your progress!

 

[lpd4005]

Hello thanks for the response, like I stated, I have purchased books and digging through web sites and I like the looks of the digitrax system, I plan to order a stationary decoder for the switch motor control that matches the system. Nice thing I like about the digitrax website is the ability to look through the manuals to all of the products they offer. i.e. starter sets, accessory parts etc. Looking through the individual accessory modules from digitrax gets me confused. I would like a signal system for just the mainline that indicates occupancy, I am not concerned about connecting the layout to a computer or anything, just make the lights work for added eye candy and a touch of realism.

With that said, I gather i need to install occupancy detectors and a signal driver setup and lastly, establish blocks on the mainline. Where I am stumped through is what exactly to buy and how to install it to get the desired effect. For simplicity I figure I would keep the original power blocks the above-track plan has for the old conventional power setup.

I have been looking for a book on this aspect of the hobby but I havent been to successful thus far in finding one, so this is the first forum I joined and figure I would get involved with the community and poke around and ask some questions so I thank everyone a head of time in putting up with my, all likelihood, repetitive questions.

 

[NYC_George]

Signaling system cost.

Hi Robert,

If you’re worried about the price of code 83 track then you should forget about any type of signaling system. Signaling systems and the hardware to run them are expensive. What I did first was to plan and install the blocks. That part was cheap. Next I plan on running a different color wire from each block back to where the signaling control system will be located. I have not done that yet to many other projects going right now. When I do I will just tie these wires into the DDC as if they were plus & minus. Still cheap. From here on in every thing gets expensive, but at least my layout is running and when I can afford the hardware it will be ready to install. I think you should go that way. Get the layout built, plan ahead for the signaling system, install the blocks as you go and then if you have money left over just add the signaling hardware later.


NYC_George

 

[lpd4005]

Hi George and thanks for the reply,

I am planning (tentatively) to purchase all of the lumber for the table, DCC starter kit, power supply, all flex track, turnouts, roadbed, switch machines, bridges, etc. all in one shot from various locations. The bill of material for the table is running me locally around $150.00ish while the rest is in the neighborhood of around $1980.00. I saved nearly $500-700 or so by switching from the Walthers code 83 to the Atlas code 100. I would have liked the code 83 but I have always been satisfied with code 100 so I wont miss the 83.

By purchasing it all in one shot, I will have all of the material I will need to have a functioning layout minus the scenery material. The rest of the layout will be a long running series of projects with my sons and their grandfather.

[FONT=&quot]The signaling is one of those like you mention, future projects. Since I’m still at the drawing board, I will definitely leave in the old blocks as the author of the plan left for the old DC system and I figure that they could be used for the signal system. I just don’t understand exactly how to setup a signal system, i.e. the occupancy detectors with the signal controllers. I plan to go with an all Digitrax setup but I’m confused as to how to install and employ their components to get the desired effect, I know I’m a bit ahead for it but I thought I would ask as I find it an intriguing topic for me. [/FONT]

 

[RexHea]

Robert: George has given some very good advise. Plan in your blocks, but also plan your signals carefully (location, indications, etc.). You also need to decide if you will use two aspect (R,Gn) or three aspect signalling (R,Yel,Gr.), so that you can figure a logical method of laying out your blocks and operating your signals. Since many railroads have their own signal methods, you need to pick one to go by or just do as I and many others, have your own. All I do is show block occupancy (block ahead, block beyond) and turnout position with the three colors and a 4th aspect of a flashing yellow for diverging routes.

You can do a search for "Railroad Signals" and come up with many sites for how and why's that the railroads use.

I have a large layout and have been working on mine for a good while. One big problem for mine is I didn't plan on signals in the beginning and had to make many track changes and additions to have good traffic control. I use all Digitrax equipment with 3 BDL168's for detection and two SE8's for signal drivers. My programmed control for the signals and traffic is handled by Railroad&Company software, "Traincontroller". This is an expensive software that does many things including automatic running and control of trains. You may not want to go with it, but JMRI free software can also control lights with detection sections. You will have to research this to see if it does what you want.

For your detection sections: All you have to do is pick one rail for the "common rail" and the other rail will be divided up with gaps isolating each detection section. Your common rail has a common feed from the BDL while each detection section has one wire going back to the BDL168. The BDL is supplied from the command station.

If you will have "Power Districts", they will have gaps in both rails at each end of the district. The in-between track will have one rail gaped for each detection section of that District with one common. You need to use the same rail for common throughout the layout. Note: The detection sections on the BDL are in groups of four. Using Power Districts, you can have four, eight, twelve, or sixteen per district...you just can't divide them up into 3 here and 7 there because of the wiring on the BDL board. Without Power Districts, you can wire in all 16 anywhere you want.

I will be glad to answer your questions the best I can and from what I have learned. Much of your planning is going to be up to you and how you want to operate. If there is something more specific that I can answer concerning Digitrax detection/signals, fire away and we will find the answer.
BTW: Its not the boards that cost so much, but the danged signals. I have started using the kits and even scratch making for mine. A BDL has 16 detection sections for around $125 from Tony's Trains. An SE8 driving 32, 3-light, signal heads goes for around $100.

 

[lpd4005]

Thanks Rex for the reply, I was looking at my layout drawing I attached and tried to figure out what type of signal to be used where. I really didn't have plans to add computer control, so if i don't have to i wont.

I like the looks of the 3 light heads (R/Y/G) since my railroad is out of a book and fictitious its all fair game, I'm not to keen on the B&O style lights, I like the looks of the more modern 3 light heads. From what i have read on the digitrax site concerning the BDL168 and the SE8C, they talk to each other through the loconet right? so I gather what ill need to do is determine the blocks for detection. Looking at layout design, I want to signal the main lines and the two reverse loops.

In my primary planning stage I think the reverse loops will have two blocks each, then the yard is rather large and figure i would break it into two blocks (upper / lower) and then divide the two mainlines into five blocks each giving me a grand total of 16 blocks to fill one BDL168, that wasn't to hard to do, I used most of the older DC plans they incorporate in the book I got the plan from .

What gets me confused now is placement of the signals. looking at the manual for the SE8C I need a total of 3 signal masts for each turnout, the approach path to a turnout has a signal with (2) 3 lamp heads then a single 3 head for oncoming traffic on both the diverge route and the reciprocal direction on the main. this is easy for me to digest when i comes to simple turnouts but the cross overs throw me off. I don't plan to place signals in the yard, only on the tracks leading into and out of it. Its a future project for pure eye candy, not really for automation, in fact I plan to use hand throws at all turnouts I can reach by hand and use tortoise in area it is difficult to reach. I realize ill have to convert the hand throws to those with a built in switch when I add the signals, but I don't see the need to spend money to power a turnout i can hand throw.

Looking at the diagram i added to my first post, any ideas on how to place the signals?

 

[RexHea]

Loconet is how everything will talk to each other, but I'm afraid the wiring gets more complicated without some sort of computer software controlling signals. Something has to say, train in block ahead means red, train in block beyond mean yellow, no train means green. This can be done by extensive wiring, relays, etc, but is a real pain. You can always pickup a used PC cheap and buy a Locobuffer for an interface to the loconet. The JMRI software I mentioned is free and will at least give you true block detection signals.

The sample you talk about is called a plant. I don't use these for many reasons, but the main reason is it eats up a lot of signal heads. Yes, real roads use these, but I would have to have a hundred danged signal heads for that configuration. That is why I use block status only. Now, if you are going to use Tortoise and want to use the plant scheme, there are two built-in switches in the tortoise that you can wire in with the signal LED's. They will give you turnout direction indicators, but nothing to do with the block detection. I also use bi-color LEDs for turnout position indicators coming off these built in switches. They are mounted in a carved piece of balsa wood to look like a dwarf signal.

Regardless of how you go about this, plan it in from the start. It may be a year or longer, but you will have it built into the plan.

I will see if I can find my 101 book with your plan in it.)
I have to close for now...way passed my bedtime. Later

 

[lpd4005]

I tinker a lot with computers as a hobby as I am also an avid flight simmer so I have a few cpu's laying around and my latest has enough horsepower to run FSX so I think I can run a signal program. I guess looking at the complex layout of a plant system, maybe I should take your approach and go with the more practical approach of block detection again, since it is all fiction as I will be running anything from steam to diesel any thing in between that fits my fancy, fanatical realism isn't a must for me, like I mentioned, its more for eye candy than operation. Im going out this weekend to purchase the wood for the table this weekend, I also have the added challenge to design the 10x13 layout into four tables that can be moved if necessary so keeping it simple will not only make my wallet happy but moving easier if I must.

 

[RexHea]

Robert, I have looked over the GRWRR (nice design) and the first thing is you don't need all those double gaps in the track for blocks except where there is a reversing unit involved or Pwr Districts. (At first glance, I would assume this drawing is setup for DC blocking control.)

If you have a single track run and no passing sidings and no other track joining it, the only purpose to have more than one detection would be having the luxury of watching the train progress as in a CTC control room. Sometimes when you have a very long single one-way track, it can be broken up into 2 or more sections so a tailing train can continue using a yellow restricted speed. Remember that you only need to gap one rail per detection section for the BDL168. Also, you don't need to gap between turnouts at a crossover when using DCC friendly turnouts. You don't need signal masts, etc., where you can't see them. Mainline detection sections should be the length of your longest train. ( Shorter sections can be used where a desired control depends on a train arriving at that position.)

Some may disagree, but considering detection and the size of this layout, I would not have power districts. The only reason I have them with my 1000+ feet of track (using Digitrax PM42) is that a short can be located quickly during an Op session. If you are the only one running, then you will know what has derailed. You definitely don't need a booster using the Chief 5 amp. It will be plenty of power, if you have track power feeders every 6-9 feet or so and coming from a common, 12-14awg bus under the layout.

If all you are after is eye candy, then the manual method may be all you need. I must add that I believe you will cut yourself short and you will wish you had the sig lights work automatically; it adds so much more realism. you don't have to it all at once...just one at a time. I have barely made a dent in my "Physical" signals, but all are already programmed in the software and show the 3 light indicators in the computer switchboard (even this gets adjusted as I think of another dependant or independent variable.)

BTW:
The SE8 board requires some sort-of software to tell it what to do.
Know that the track power to a detection section comes from/through the BDL. That is the wires you run for the detection circuit. The common rail wire will also come from there.

Questions:
Did you first have it in mind to control your signals manually, i.e. light indicator shows occupancy...you throw a toggle for the proper sig light? The BDL does have output capability via ribbon cable to drive LED's per block. This is only an on-off condition for use on a control panel, etc.

Will you have two-way traffic per route or one-way? all tracks or some of each?

The list goes on and it takes time, but it is fun to figure out. I have been studying and working on mine for over a year. You always have to put yourself in a loco and run around the layout, thinking about all the variables.

My suggestion is for you to first install your mainlines and then rethink all the block locations. They can easily be cut into place with a Dremel and a tiny piece of styrene, placed, trimmed, and super glued in the gap. One of the beautiful things about DCC is you are ready-to-go when you hook power to rails. All of these things we have discussed add to an already huge load; don't be discouraged. It is a hobby without time and all you have to do is one thing at a time in a (hopefully) logical order. Now lets get that benchwork up.