Mail-order Ethics


I don't see it as a matter of ethics. To me it's a matter of who has what I want. I'd love it if I could just drive over to the hobby shop and pick up anything I want, plop down my money, and walk out the door with it. I hate waiting for stuff. Unfortunately the local hobby shop doesn't always have it and in the case of stuff that's rare or out of production, probably won't be getting it anytime in the foreseeable future. So in that case mail order or buying online is pretty much the only game in town. Plus in some cases I tend to work odd hours. It doesn't matter what kind of a selection the shop has if it's closed when I get there.
 
It might be helpful if we were to use two somewhat disparate concepts here: ethics vs. values. There are two main forms of 'ethics', they being utilitarian and deontological. Utilitarianism is what lies behind the democractic principles where majority rules. That's very crude, but quite accurate. In utilitarian thinking, the correct solution to an ethical problem is the one where the most good (however good is defined in context) accrues to the greatest number of beneficiaries of the act...or that leads to the greatest happiness. In the end, the end justifies the means. No matter what you had to do, if it means a net gain or retention in happiness, safety, wealth, etc., it was okay to do.

In deontic ethics, the person is paramount. You may never use a person as a means to an end. The person IS...the end. Deontic ethics are governed by rules of conduct. Act in no way that you bring indignity to another. Do not use another for your purposes. Ensure that all you do in the way of acts would be universally willed as the right thing to do by all rational beings. And so on. A major proponent was Immanuel Kant, the German philosopher. He emphasized the 'Good Will' where you have good will to both your sovereign, head of state, or your public and fellow man. So, you may never sacrifice a virgin so that others may prosper that year with their crops. Bad form!! Except in utilitarian ethics, and then only if sacrificing the virgin comes out of a careful calculus showing it to be a correct act for the most good to the most people. Weird and mind bending, but that's the major difference between the two schools of thought.

That's ethics. Values, on the other hand, are what you hold dear in the way of orientation to others. Do you value harmony, even to the point of giving up your principles? Or, do your principles count more than your friendships? Do you value thrift, quietude, knowledge, wisdom, and so on? How do those impact on your philosophy with respect to the way you treat and negotiate with others with whom you find yourself contending for something...power, money, work, space, the last new cell phone on the shelf at Future Shop, etc? Your values shape your ethics. Your values govern the way you behave toward others.

There is one other type of ethics, and that is Virtue Ethics. I won't discuss it, but you can google it if you like and get a feel for how it differs from the other two I have mentioned.

The point to all of this is that you must carefully, if a scrupulous person and thinker, work through the principles of each type of ethical reasoning in order to arrive at an acceptable and defensible way of acting in a given circumstance. With hobbies, we have the luxury of time and reflection. Often we do not. When things get dicey, a person is more apt to use utilitarian thinking. Sometimes, they are right.
 
Hey Crandell,

That was a marvelous read. Are you a professor of philosophy?

For me it comes down to a very simple idea I learned from Pope John Paul II, "Capitalism with a conscience".

I equate capitalism with evolution in that only the strong survive. I read in an earlier post and I am paraphrasing, but the idea was "model train shops have to adapt or perish" and I agree completely. I have no sympathy for a commercial venture trying to make profit. Regardless of what Mitt Romney believes, business are not people. That being said I am strongly opposed to brick and mortar stores being used only as show rooms for online vendors.

I am curious, how would you classify my brand of ethics?

Thank you very much for writing your post, I enjoyed reading it very much.

Louis
 
That is a good way for an individual to judge him/herself.

I like to think I am the same, but it's something I will have to evaluate.

Good thought!

Louis


RCShadow said:
Here is a thought...

How do you act when no one else is around vs. when you are in in front of folks??
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First two parts of the Rotary Four Way Test:

Is it the Truth?
Is it Fair to All concerned?

Not bad to remember once in a while.


Sent from my Vic20 using Java Moose
 
tootnkumin said:
"Capitalism with a conscience"? Oxymoron?
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I've always thought so.

When I had my business, I was appalled at what lengths my competitors would go to, to get business. Some stooped lower than the belly of a snake. I had many "sales" calls that were nothing more than competitors using clients to spy on what we had, what we were going to have, and what we planned for the future. When I was on a sales call, in person or conference call, and I sniffed this out, I would abruptly call the meeting to an end being nice but firm in my approach.

This is what keeps me from starting another business...this point is a tough issue if you have any conscience at all and truely separates the good from the bad in this competitive world we live in.
 
Louis, thanks for your kind remark. I do happen to teach, but only as a lecturer, and my subject is "Leadership and Ethics." The course is a 400 level course at the Royal Military College of Canada. I have no formal instruction in ethics as a subject, but I had to bone up on it in order to teach that heavy component of the course. The rest is motivational psych, organizational psych, and a module on professionalism...what is a professsional, what are the characteristics of a profession, are military officers professionals, is the military a profession, the rules of war, and so on. The learners must complete three major essays for assessment, two dealing with ethical dilemmas, plus post twice each week in response to a question I present to them on a forum just like this one.

I hesitate to engage forumites on personal values except as generalities, so I hope you won't be affronted if I answer your questions obliquely. Capitalism is a natural as evolution. The strong do survive, except that some people are victimized by it when the owners of the business is unscrupulous. Businesses are not born bad, assuming they aren't outright illegal, but their manner may turn bad in time when profits and survival trump other defensible values and ethics...or laws. In that respect, they are human after all because humans behave largely the same way. Some learn, adapt, modify their attitudes and behaviours, and they earn respect and support thereby. Others are slow in those ways, or intractible, and they soon get plowed under.

Darwin was only partially right, if brilliant. It's not that the strong survive, or even that they adapt, although those things are possible. It is that suddent changes catch the unsuitable and render them liabilities to themselves. A very few, oddities at the time, are suddenly the best able to cope by luck, and their numbers will soon grow and become the normative population. In other words, the new way of looking at evolution is called "punctuated equilibrium". Things run along smoothly on a remote island, birds flock, they reproduce, lizards as well, and everything is in balance. Then, the local volcano blooms and erupts in such a way that a few odd pairs of birds are soon all that is left...maybe pairs that were just that much more easily able to digest a certain flower bud that also survives. Their brethren die off in the thousands, but these two pairs thrive on the buds and you now have a new ecology on the island. The punctuation was the volcano, erupting this week and then quiet for the next 1000 years.

You should see the parallel between that scenario and modern hobby shops in an age of the internet, as dynamic and punctuated as we have had in recent decades.
 
I sure wish those in power would bring ethics back to the college level as a requirement in the United States. If given long enough without this, as Crandell states so eloquently in the post before, the behavior to survive will be proliferated long enough to become acceptable, if it hasn't already.
 
Hi again Crandell,

I am always impressed when I have to refer to a dictionary to understand what I am reading. That is why I like to read the New York Times. I like to be challenged and made to think when I read. For me that is what makes reading fun. Your vocabulary alone makes me think of you as the Howard Cosell of Model Railroading. Fortunately the similarity ends there.

My question was rhetorical rather then a serious inquiry. I did not give you enough of a sample to make a valid judgment. A general answer was appropriate.

I believe our individual ethics are formed at an early age and more from observation then instruction. I know my grandsons learn much more from what I do as opposed to what I say. I still try to reinforce my actions with words. I always tell them "We do the right thing not because we have to, we do the right thing because it is the right thing to do"

Like all kinds of learning young people are like sponges and keep absorbing for a long time, but most is absorbed early in life. We have so many unethical people because they did not have good examples of ethical behavior. I believe for the most part there are no bad children, only poor parents, but like every rule there are exceptions.

The world is full of victims and villains to varying degrees. It always has been and always will be. I don't believe ethics can be legislated. I don't put much faith in laws at all, prohibition is a perfect example. It was thought it would reduce crime, but in the end it promoted crime. That being said I don't want a return to the old west either. I think it is important to know "locks are for honest people" Charlemagne said "he who tries to defend everything, defends nothing" I think that is relevant in most things in life.

There are always catastrophic events. In the 90s I was building and selling my own private label computers and an earth quake in Taiwan destroyed a major supplier of system ram. Over night the price of ram began to sharply rise and quickly put me out of business. It changed the industry forever. Now there is very little profit margin in PCs. I had to adapt and change my emphasis to industrial mechanical services. I was fortunate to be a one man operation, giving me the flexibility to quickly shift to other things and I had the experience to be proficient in other fields.

Where there is a will there is a way, but with exception! Several years later I began to experience health problems I could not overcome and I have been disabled ever since. I am fortunate that I had an eye on the future and a wife that has helped me immensely. I even had a wonderful dog (Bessy) that was so loyal and never left my side. My Family and my Bessy gave me the strength to carry me through my darkest hour. My health has stabilized and I am doing very well now! Thank you God.

For me God has to be a part of ethics. In my way of thinking Humans are blessed by God. We have imagination, thought and other attributes far beyond every other creature and we can over come almost any obstacle. I was born Catholic and I still respect and admire the Catholic Church, but I think God is much too complex for any human to understand. I think of God as an accountant keeping a ledger, I don't want to be in the red when I am done.

In your example the unfortunate creatures were stuck on the island. Humans could have built a boat and sailed away.

I took Pope John Paul II statement "capitalism with a conscience" to mean we have to have compassion and respect for each other in our endeavors to make profit.

I learned early in life "It's not a good deal unless it's a deal for both sides"

Louis
 
Thanks to you guys for the thought provoking discussion over the weekend. I wonder if Dairy State Dad knew what his query would flower into?

I have been surprised to meet some of the most challenging experiences of my life and in my work at age 54 (last year). . I am in the middle of serious and unforseen circumstances that turns the idea of retirement on its ear. My own consulting business (of 30 years) got pushed to the point of irrelavence thanks to competition from large engineering companies. Those actions sent me to the oil field to experience a very difficult reality.


In dealing with others, both as a business owner and as an employee of a large corporation, there has been cooperation or competition. When fracking an oil well, a team of people gets the best outcome when pure cooperation is present. All members do the individual jobs with consideration for the other parties and for the ultimate objective of pumping the stuff down the well.

When one or more parties decides to compete with another individual, like throwing a wrench into the gear box to make someone look bad, one person can not only foil the efforts of the team; but in some sick and perverted way, elevate themselves. The bad element may even see some gain from this action.

Enlarging the analogy to our popular corporate psychology, the big have the ability to swallow up the small by selling below cost, absorbing losses to the ability of their riches, then bouncing back when the competition is choked. This is the oldest and most prevalent trick in the book. I have seen it in sole proprietorships and multi national companies.

(I believe, over time, the society with pure cooperation will outlast the one with pure competition due to the destructive elements inherent in competition.)


This is how I justify sometimes paying more for something because I want to keep someone in business. Even if my impact is miniscule, I feel better.

Guys, thanks for all your effort in making some thought provoking discussion!

logandsawman
 
Thanks to you guys for the thought provoking discussion over the weekend. I wonder if Dairy State Dad knew what his query would flower into?
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I was certainly not expecting it -- and couldn't be happier... I've been watching the unfolding conversation with real appreciation, though I found I had nothing more to add myself.

And I agree, logandsawman, that cooperation, not just pure competition, is essential to our well-being as a society.


Erik
 
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The whole point of living ethically is that we are not isolated, and do much better with positive mutual regard and with Kant's good will. "No man is an island." No society we value today is fostered by userers, rapists, thieves, and shirkers. Societies thrive on positive mutual regard, co-operation, and honourable living.

I tell my learners that all forms of abuse are essentially acts of theft. We steal the natural inclination we have to warmly trust and nurture each other when we deceive and take advantage of each other. When we pull a fast one on a client or customer because we suspect the exchange is unlikely to be repeated in a future sale or service, only one of us profits. I felt that way about the very first purchase of a steam locomotive at a hobby shop about 90 minutes away from where I live when I first entered the hobby seven years ago. He charged me what I later learned was an exhorbitant price. While I can really only blame myself for my decision (I could have researched a bit more), I felt that his price was rather ridiculously high in retrospect. I did very little business with him later, and was not sorry to see him close within a couple of years. I now buy from reputable on-line suppliers who take their relationshp with satisfied customers rather seriously.

You can all see that ethical living is not necessarily easy, but it ought to be desired above all other ways of living...by people of Good Will. If you would like to be fondly remembered, and grieved, upon your passing, lay the groundwork now while you can.
 
Selector said:
I did very little business with him later, and was not sorry to see him close within a couple of years. I now buy from reputable on-line suppliers who take their relationshp with satisfied customers rather seriously.
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We don't all get to see the fruit of our selective patronage. I think it is neet that you witnessed the "bad guy" going under.

In our household we sometimes have a discussion about how much to give. Whether it be at church, cafe or hotel tip, or anywhere there is an opportunity to aid or promote service or attitude.

And we came to this conclusion: God will not hold it against us if we give too much. If we give to little of ourselves, everyone suffers.

logandsawman
 
Selector said:
The whole point of living ethically is that we are not isolated, and do much better with positive mutual regard and with Kant's good will. "No man is an island." No society we value today is fostered by userers, rapists, thieves, and shirkers. Societies thrive on positive mutual regard, co-operation, and honourable living.

I tell my learners that all forms of abuse are essentially acts of theft. We steal the natural inclination we have to warmly trust and nurture each other when we deceive and take advantage of each other. When we pull a fast one on a client or customer because we suspect the exchange is unlikely to be repeated in a future sale or service, only one of us profits. I felt that way about the very first purchase of a steam locomotive at a hobby shop about 90 minutes away from where I live when I first entered the hobby seven years ago. He charged me what I later learned was an exhorbitant price. While I can really only blame myself for my decision (I could have researched a bit more), I felt that his price was rather ridiculously high in retrospect. I did very little business with him later, and was not sorry to see him close within a couple of years. I now buy from reputable on-line suppliers who take their relationshp with satisfied customers rather seriously.

You can all see that ethical living is not necessarily easy, but it ought to be desired above all other ways of living...by people of Good Will. If you would like to be fondly remembered, and grieved, upon your passing, lay the groundwork now while you can.
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Well stated, Crandell. Thank you.

Joe
 
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