Mail-order Ethics


DairyStateDad

DairyStateDad

Mumbling in the corner
This may sound like a weird question (my specialty!)... but it's been on my mind... And in asking it, I am not passing judgment on anyone else for the decisions they make about where to buy from.

As a buyer I want to of course get the best possible price for what I buy.

On the other hand, I don't want my decisions to contribute to the demise of local model railroad retailers who can give a level of service once you get to know them. So buying mail-order from a discount house far away sometimes feels a bit guilt-inducing.

(I also like buying American when I can, but we know that, when it comes to motive power especially, that train has already left the station ... pun intended...)

So does anyone else have thoughts about this question?:confused:

Erik
 
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I have purchased motive power from mail order and from my LHS. Strangely enough, my LHS gets the bulk of the high dollar purchases, because I know if something fails, they will take care of it.
I have purchased $200 engines mail order, but almost everything over that amount is purchased locally. I can hold it touch it and watch it run before paying.
 
Some of us don't have any choice. The closest model railroad hobby shop for me is over 150 miles away. I stop at it when ever I am in Billings, MT, but I would say that about 99 percent of the time, they do not have what I need in stock and I get the "well, I can order it in" speech. Years ago we had a Hobby Town locally that did carry some (very little) model railroad supplies that I could use, and I would give tem the business when ever I could. They closed about10 years ago, so I have no choice but to use mail order, and I have been very satisfied with the companies I have been dealing with.
 
The thing that's not ethical is to go into the LHS and check out what it is we want to buy, ask them all about it , then buy on the internet. Personally I prefer buying off the LHS but go elsewhere for some items.
 
My local shop rarely carries what I need, especially when it comes to rolling stock and power. When they do have something in stock that I need, I'll buy it there vs. online, but in these days of everyone watching their inventory and the "Well, I can order it for you" mentality, it's just as easy for me to order it online myself and have it delivered direct to my door, instead of making another trip to the shop. That said, I do like to give them my business whenever I can, it's just not as often as I might like. Considering I can save $40-60 (even factoring in shipping vs. tax) by ordering a new loco online vs. hoping that the local guy can get it for me and then waiting as long, if not longer, for it to come in - my higher ticket purchases tend to be made online. I just can't justify paying that much of a premium at a local shop, however much I might want to.
 
I go the opposite way from BNSF......my loal shop gets most of my small purchases, and most of my "need it now" purchases. My larger purchases are generally on-line/mailorder. Sadly, the discounts are just too great........20% off a $4 piece of flextrack really isn't a major issue, but 20% off a $120 loco is significant. I actually have the same "local" dealer as Montanan, so there's also a time factor involved as well. I only get to Billings about once a month so sometimes my purchases are influenced by that as well.....if my next visit is 3 or 4 weeks away, I may not wait. I try to support the local dealers, but in the end, a dollar means as much to me as it does to them, so I go with whoever is cheapest.
 
I use two primary retail sources for N scale train items......both have great customer service......plus I've begun bidding on ebay. The nearest local hobby shops are 30 plus miles away. They can't possibly compete for better price with internet based vendors who specialize in model trains, have vastly greater selection, and sell higher volume with access to a worldwide market. It's nice when some folks are still able to have that local store option.
 
My lhs gets my here and now purchases (40 miles away). The mail order guys (3 of which are large brick and mortars shops too) get most of my other purchases.
 
scroggin said:
The thing that's not ethical is to go into the LHS and check out what it is we want to buy, ask them all about it , then buy on the internet. Personally I prefer buying off the LHS but go elsewhere for some items.
Click to expand...

Is that different from going into various furniture stores, or appliance stores, or machinery tools stores, or automobile dealerships and doing precisely the same thing? IOW, it isn't unethical at all. It's smart. Who among us has not gone to a number of dealerships and kicked tires, only to end up buying something different across the street, or from a friend who suddenly has one for sale? If you see a fine hobby lathe at Store X, ask about it, and then walk away to think about it, but get a flyer from Micro Mark showing it's on sale for a reduction of $80 at their store only (as far as you can tell), would you seriously march back to the LHS the next day and plop down the price he's asking just because he spent six minutes with you explaining all it could do? That extra charge works out to an $800/hr consulting fee rate. Add in the cost of doubling your travel back to the store. Yikes!!
 
"The thing that's not ethical is to go into the LHS and check out what it is we want to buy, ask them all about it , then buy on the internet. Personally I prefer buying off the LHS but go elsewhere for some items."

Well no it is not. If I go into hobby shop one, ask a few questions, than the next day go to hobby shop #2, ask the same questions an see that both have the same item for almost double what it goes for on line, how is the unethical, that is called shopping around.

Case in point, I was looking for an Athearn GP35 in Southern Pacific. Online they sold for $79.99 on sale to average of $99.99. The LHS #1 had the same model, road number for $179.99, LHS #2 had it for $129.99. Still a third more then what was listed on the net. I did pay the $130.00 for it. Dang impulse buying and I "WANT" the store to be there for a while. plus I can add it to the collection unnoticed :eek:

I hear the story all the time, the LHS can not compete with online. Really? Unless the online store id a drop shipper, they have a building, employees, over head to cover just like the LHS. I order from a few Mom and Pop places on line. They are small brick and mortar shops and they are doing very well. They have the walk in plus do a good online retail business.

Buzz.
 
It's called, "the cost of doing business." Some have more overhead than others, and ye olde analog shops are feeling the pinch. That's from Sears and JC all the way down to Granny Smith's Homemade Pie Shoppe. If you are looking for an apartment to rent, you are not likely to jump at the first one you look at unless the vacancy rate is something like 0.5% in your location. But, if it is more like the normal 2%-5%, you go in one, look around, open some things, give it the actual sniff test, and move on to the next address. At some point you plunk down a deposit. The market is evolutionary. Where stores were the only places to buy what you couldn't/wouldn't make for yourself, or grow, now we can use any one of about 150 different commercially available devices, plus a single service, to shop and to secure for delivery anything that we can afford. Those of us with a penchant for survival take the most economical route for ourselves. The LHS's with that penchant have opened up healthy and thriving on-line services. Mom's 'n Pops are on their way out unless as 'convenience stores', whether for slushies or GP-38's in HO. Convenience shopping = high overhead. I don't wanna pay for it.
 
scroggin said:
The thing that's not ethical is to go into the LHS and check out what it is we want to buy, ask them all about it , then buy on the internet. Personally I prefer buying off the LHS but go elsewhere for some items.
Click to expand...

Why is this "not" ethical? From the retailer standpoint, it's competition; from the consumer standpoint, it's called shopping for the best deal. I don't understand why one would consider shopping unethical.
 
Originally Posted by scroggin
The thing that's not ethical is to go into the LHS and check out what it is we want to buy, ask them all about it , then buy on the internet. Personally I prefer buying off the LHS but go elsewhere for some items.

WJLI26 said:
Why is this "not" ethical? From the retailer standpoint, it's competition; from the consumer standpoint, it's called shopping for the best deal. I don't understand why one would consider shopping unethical.
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In my booth at the NMRA National Train Show I saw at least one and probably more people walking up and down the aisles with their smart phones seeing if they can find cheaper prices anywhere. As it happens I price my stuff pretty close to on line pricing levels. Sometimes I'm a few dollars more, sometimes a few dollars less. I figure if my time with you explaining & teaching the proper use of my equipment (15-30 minutes with some customers is not unusual) and my after sale support (where you get to talk to a real person in the US...me!) isn't worth anything to you, then no hard feelings if you move along. I just ask one favor: If, after you take up my time, then buy it online, and have a problem with it, please go back to where you bought it, don't bring it to me. It is not unethical to do that, but it is kind of rude!

Also, the LHS is not a car dealer, a realtor, or a furniture store. They are way fewer in number. Ask yourself this: When they are gone from your area and you have to buy everything from Kadee couplers on up online, will you be happy with that situation? I won't spend 20-30% more for something either, but I might go to the store and ask what they could do for me. I did this once and got a pair of Genesis F-3's at a significant discount by taking delivery immediately and paying cash. Just a few thoughts.
 
Espeefan said:
Also, the LHS is not a car dealer, a realtor, or a furniture store. They are way fewer in number. Ask yourself this: When they are gone from your area and you have to buy everything from Kadee couplers on up online, will you be happy with that situation? I won't spend 20-30% more for something either, but I might go to the store and ask what they could do for me. I did this once and got a pair of Genesis F-3's at a significant discount by taking delivery immediately and paying cash. Just a few thoughts.
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What are they then? A retailer is a retailer. It doesn't matter what they sell. All brick and mortar retailers have the same costs of doing business, and the same problems. Across the board, their biggest problem is that they have competition. How they handle competition is the determining factor as to whether they remain in business or not.

For what it's worth, when ever I go to a train show, I browse the entire show, before I make a purchase. it's amazing how much an item's price differs between two aisles. Also both hobby suppliers I deal with on line have a brick and mortar presence. One was my regular LHS, when I lived in their area.

Quite honestly, I don't understand how shopping around can be considered unethical or rude. It's part of the give and take of day to day business transactions. Most model railroaders tend to figure out how something works, how to fix minor problems, and modify our models to suit the end user. Taking time to "explain" the intricacies of a product is part of the sell. If the customer bites you win, if he goes elsewhere, well here comes someone else. It's business.

Joe
 
I really do see both sides on this.

A lot of the online merchants in the model RR field are Mom and Pop operations, and so I don't have a problem with that.

But I do think about the implications for good local hobby shops in this environment. Emphasis on good.

I might be opening a can of worms, but just this morning my wife pointed out this item about Amazon.com. We are big believers in supporting our favorite local bookstore, so news like the link below is frankly scary.

But... I realize that not all online merchants are an Amazon, and I am guessing that there is not an equivalent in the Model RR biz.....

http://www.shelf-awareness.com/issue.html?issue=2049

Just some food for thought...
 
Capitalism and evolution have at least one thing in common; only the strong survive. The internet and big box stores have taken their toll on the "Mom and Pop" stores of all kinds but in the end the consumer is the benefactor.

"This above all: to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man."

I just thought that seemed appropriate for this discussion.
 
WJLI26 said:
What are they then? A retailer is a retailer. It doesn't matter what they sell. All brick and mortar retailers have the same costs of doing business, and the same problems. Across the board, their biggest problem is that they have competition. How they handle competition is the determining factor as to whether they remain in business or not.

For what it's worth, when ever I go to a train show, I browse the entire show, before I make a purchase. it's amazing how much an item's price differs between two aisles. Also both hobby suppliers I deal with on line have a brick and mortar presence. One was my regular LHS, when I lived in their area.

Quite honestly, I don't understand how shopping around can be considered unethical or rude. It's part of the give and take of day to day business transactions. Most model railroaders tend to figure out how something works, how to fix minor problems, and modify our models to suit the end user. Taking time to "explain" the intricacies of a product is part of the sell. If the customer bites you win, if he goes elsewhere, well here comes someone else. It's business.

Joe
Click to expand...

Joe I think you should read my post again. I never said you shouldn't shop for the best deal, did I? Or where you should look? As for them all being retailers, in the broadest sense, yes, but how many hobby shops in your area? Now how many car dealships? How many furniture stores? They are generally smaller businesses serving a pretty specailized market which is financed entirely by disposable income, unlike the need for a car, furniture, or someplace to live. I buy some things on line myself, but I don't shop in my local stores, then buy online, and if there is a problem with my purchase, take it to my LHS and ask them for help. That's what is kind of rude, and I have seen it happen more than a few times over the years. I have even told some customers during negotiations that if they can find it cheaper elsewhere, then that's where they should go buy it. What hasn't been addressed yet in this thread is: What happens when online is within a buck or two of brick & mortar? What then? In my case I will usually buy local if the price difference is in the +/- 10% range, because I get to take it home that day, because I can bring it right back if there's a problem, and because a chunk of that 10% will go towards shipping & handling. Last but not least, the LHS gets the business and I am interested in keeping a good train store or two in reasonable driving distance. What about the rest of you guys?
 
It's the LHSs who haven't taken to the Internet that have been hit the hardest. Those that have adapted their businesses to both a brick and mortar presence with a robust website have reaped the benefits. Look at mbklein, trainworld, and caboose hobbies. Train worlds website 3 years ago was pitiful, but they benefit from a large metro area and a well known mail order biz. Today they have a good website and a lot of emails about their specials. Compare this to my lhs who has a great store but little discounts and a poor website. Every time I go there they tell me their struggle is getting worse. I feel for them, but they have been slow to adapt to changing market conditions. Failure to do so kills businesses in a capitalist system. It's harsh and not always fair but true. One that is in the middle of hopefully a positive transition is Blueridge Hobbies in SC. Brick and mortar and a great website. They are now drastically downsizing brick and mortar to concentrate on Internet. Times change and the smart businesses do too.
 
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