GN.2-6-8-0
Member
Unfortunely not always the case' we have one perticular LHS that will tell you "you bought it' if you have a problem send it to the manufacturer.
Mail-order Ethics
- Thread starter DairyStateDad
- Start date
DairyStateDad
Mumbling in the corner
A perfect example of why this isn't just a black and white issue on either side.
scroggin
Member
There have been some good points made here on both sides. I buy partly online and partly at the LHS. Online often gives the best deal but with big items I have priced online then asked my LHS to match it. He more than matched it. What makes me squeamish is using the LHS just to check out a product if I have no intention of buying there. I guess its a bit of a gray area ethically but the bottom line is that I don't want to deceive the shopkeeper just to get his knowledge and expertise. Im more likely to buy on-line if I know what im after and know the quality of the product Im buying.
Boris
Beach Bum
I hear what you are saying, Alan, and I understand your frustration but rude isn't the right word, (something stronger maybe). Not for nothing but I would tell him to return it to the dealer who sold it to him. I don't have an issue with you. Unfortunately, that's the way business works today....Wall Street analysts often refer to Best Buy as a "showroom" for Amazon for the same reason. And some of what they sell is discretionary and some more necessity. My point is that even the model train business is competitive. The biggest internet dealers, were/are also LHS in their market. One has two retail stores plus internet.
If the difference between local and internet is a buck or two,(or more in some cases); that's a no brainer, assuming the local guy has it in the first place. Off the top of my head, there are at minimum, five LHS within 15 - 20 miles of my house. My problem with them is that they frequently don't have what I want in stock. One guy only stocks code 100 rail, either Atlas or PECO. I use code 70 and code 83. Another gets paranoid about selling solvent based paint. None of them are exactly happy to special order, either. Lets face it, a LHS cannot be competitive, or sell product that he/she doesn't carry, and the customer can't buy what's not available for sale.
Joe
Bruette
Well-Known Member
You hit the nail on the head big8!
I live in Baltimore and MB Klein / Model Train Stuff was my grandfathers store and mine too! I was sorry to see them move from Baltimore to Timonium because it's 20 minutes more drive time each way for me, but they had to. Now they have a much bigger show room with separate sections for N, HO, and my O and a huge warehouse to serve their web site's demands. It use to be so small you could hardly move around Christmas time and very little room for displays, most things had to be ordered. It is still crowded Christmas time, but they have almost everything I need in stock.
They used the profits from the business and I am sure their own capital investment to improve the web site and the store. My grandsons love to go there and see all the trains running on all the different scale layouts. The place is at least 10 times bigger then what it was. They have many more people working now. With specialist for each gauge. It has been great for internet shoppers, local customers like me and for jobs.
They were always the friendliest train shop and the most competitively priced. The internet has only made them bigger and better. When my daughter bought me the Lionel Polar Express set, they beat Wal-Mart.com's price by more then $30 So much for "Mom and Pop" can't compete with the big guys. Check their prices against Amazon, almost always 10% to 50% less then Amazon.
MB Klein/Model Train Stuff is still owned by the Klein family. They are always willing to help and I have never heard them ask anyone "where did you buy it".
It is sad to see the many local shops that have closed, but it is the evolution of the industry. With out mentioning names, (no point in speaking bad about the departed) before the internet the other train shops I had been in treated me like I was bothering them. There were 3 other shops between my home and MB Klein before they moved but MB Klein always treated me like I was their biggest customer and up until last year I only ran a train for Christmas.
As loyal as I am to MB Klein/Model Train Stuff I do buy elsewhere from time to time. If they don't have what I want in stock or the odd occasion someone beats their price. I have to be loyal to myself and my family first. If I spend too much for something I am wasting money my family could use. I feel bad enough about how much I spend on trains with out giving away extra. This is business, not charity. If I give to charity it won't be a commercial operation try to make profit. I was self employed for most of my life and no one ever made any donations to me. I had to earn every dollar.
Louis
I live in Baltimore and MB Klein / Model Train Stuff was my grandfathers store and mine too! I was sorry to see them move from Baltimore to Timonium because it's 20 minutes more drive time each way for me, but they had to. Now they have a much bigger show room with separate sections for N, HO, and my O and a huge warehouse to serve their web site's demands. It use to be so small you could hardly move around Christmas time and very little room for displays, most things had to be ordered. It is still crowded Christmas time, but they have almost everything I need in stock.
They used the profits from the business and I am sure their own capital investment to improve the web site and the store. My grandsons love to go there and see all the trains running on all the different scale layouts. The place is at least 10 times bigger then what it was. They have many more people working now. With specialist for each gauge. It has been great for internet shoppers, local customers like me and for jobs.
They were always the friendliest train shop and the most competitively priced. The internet has only made them bigger and better. When my daughter bought me the Lionel Polar Express set, they beat Wal-Mart.com's price by more then $30 So much for "Mom and Pop" can't compete with the big guys. Check their prices against Amazon, almost always 10% to 50% less then Amazon.
MB Klein/Model Train Stuff is still owned by the Klein family. They are always willing to help and I have never heard them ask anyone "where did you buy it".
It is sad to see the many local shops that have closed, but it is the evolution of the industry. With out mentioning names, (no point in speaking bad about the departed) before the internet the other train shops I had been in treated me like I was bothering them. There were 3 other shops between my home and MB Klein before they moved but MB Klein always treated me like I was their biggest customer and up until last year I only ran a train for Christmas.
As loyal as I am to MB Klein/Model Train Stuff I do buy elsewhere from time to time. If they don't have what I want in stock or the odd occasion someone beats their price. I have to be loyal to myself and my family first. If I spend too much for something I am wasting money my family could use. I feel bad enough about how much I spend on trains with out giving away extra. This is business, not charity. If I give to charity it won't be a commercial operation try to make profit. I was self employed for most of my life and no one ever made any donations to me. I had to earn every dollar.
Louis
Yesterday I went to my LHS to swap a defective $400 BLI engine I got from them last weekend. It took an hour, with no problem. 3 months ago, MB Klein sent me the wrong $169 engine, and it took a month and three trips to the post office to get straightened out. While it is expected to have the hassle with mail order, you also expect the deep discount to make those issues worth you while when they crop up. My LHS has the same locomotive in stock as I got from MBK. For $186. By the time I made my three trips to the Post Office, taking an hour off from work each time to get there before they closed, I was in the hole for $45.
So, there is obviously a time when mail order is good, and there is a time the LHS is good, but it all depends upon your own circumstances.
So, there is obviously a time when mail order is good, and there is a time the LHS is good, but it all depends upon your own circumstances.
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Bruette
Well-Known Member
I agree that for $10 or $20 or so it is a good idea to use your local shop.
What happened to you is a perfect example of "there Is an exception to every rule" even the best make mistakes.
If you are like me you hate to complain, but right is right. I believe in the old rule "the customer is (almost) always right. In this case I believe they at least owe you an apology and they should make some kind of concession on your next purchase. I don't know who is the HO manager at MB Klein, I have only bought 1 new Ho locomotive in the last 10 years, but I have great line of communication with Bob, the large scale manager.
If I were you I would Contact Sue Bates and let her know what it would take to make you happy.
Sue Bates, Director - Customer Service & Support
M.B. Klein Inc.
888-410-2672 Ext. 7023
Monday – Friday
10AM – 5PM Eastern Time
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif][FONT=Calibri, sans-serif][url]www.modeltrainstuff.com[/FONT][/URL][/FONT]
I wish you well. Let us know how you make out.
Louis
What happened to you is a perfect example of "there Is an exception to every rule" even the best make mistakes.
If you are like me you hate to complain, but right is right. I believe in the old rule "the customer is (almost) always right. In this case I believe they at least owe you an apology and they should make some kind of concession on your next purchase. I don't know who is the HO manager at MB Klein, I have only bought 1 new Ho locomotive in the last 10 years, but I have great line of communication with Bob, the large scale manager.
If I were you I would Contact Sue Bates and let her know what it would take to make you happy.
Sue Bates, Director - Customer Service & Support
M.B. Klein Inc.
888-410-2672 Ext. 7023
Monday – Friday
10AM – 5PM Eastern Time
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif][FONT=Calibri, sans-serif][url]www.modeltrainstuff.com[/FONT][/URL][/FONT]
I wish you well. Let us know how you make out.
Louis
Oh we don't have any issues at all, and I'm not advocating online over brick & mortar either. We all have to stretch our hobby dollar as far as it will go. I do advocate cultivating a relationship with your LHS (if it is a decent one), and maybe giving them "last look". (I don't count places like Hobbytown USA or Hobby Lobby. Their train departments are generally pitiful unless you stumble across one run by a train guy)
Here in Milwaukee I am lucky enough to have three decent hobby shops pretty close. Two are very good and have stuff. One, not so much, unless you are a Milwaukee Road or Soo line fan. He offers to special order, but as has been said by you & others, why do that if I can do it myself, or if the shop across town has it?
On the business side of things, I actually lose very few customers, and I have a feeling that those few I do lose I probably wouldn't have wanted anyway.
All I expect is for the ethics the OP referenced to be applied in any given situation. Intersting that you mention Amazon. For years they did have an unfair advantage (unfair at least in the eyes of conventional stores): No sales tax. The bigger the sale, the bigger the advantage. Those laws are beginning to change, and we'll probably see the end of that in the next few years. Some states are already requiring tax be collected in online sales.
In the end, the high volume folks are always going to win if we judge strictly on price, and it's impossible to establish a relationship with them. So we all have to ask ourselves how much personalized service is worth. Everyone will have a different answer for this, depending on their situation.
Boris
Beach Bum
Living in Jersey has taught me a whole new meaning for Rudeness, business relationships and ethics. I tend to forget what it's like in the rest of the world.The ideal situation, would be to cultivate a relationship with a local dealer, but these (expletive deleted) guys around here............And it's not all about price either...... It's the blank stare you get when you are about to drop $500 on something you really didn't need; or the Jekyll - Hide personality you encounter from the owner depending on the phase of the moon; or the absentee owner that allows the boys from the "club" first pick at the advance orders; and finally the guy who uses me as an audience while he expounds on his political views. Compared to that, point and click shopping is a pleasure.
Joe
Iron Horseman
Well-Known Member
I was a big "support the local model store" for many many years. However, their stock has once floor to ceiling with everything ever manufactured that was still available. One didn't need to "search" catalogs or on-line to find out what was available. The store shelves were the catalog. The service department had every part for everything, or the repair people could come up with some solution to fix the thing. Now the shelves seem nearly bare, they don't carry many brands/lines or even much variety of the brands they do stock. One almost has to know what they want before going. It is sad, but the worst thing is going in and asking about something specific. When they say, "we can order that for you". My thought response is "I can order that for myself". I don't need a place I can go to "order" things for me.
The final straw was one of my last orders. I spent hours calculating the difference between the difference between paying sales tax to pick up locally vs having them ship to my address out of state. I submitted my orders accordingly. They immediately merged orders, and worse, merged in such a manner that I had to pay BOTH shipping AND Sales Tax. I figure that "trick" cost me about $100 more than it could have. The person I was dealing with said she didn't have enough time to deal with complicated orders (a person with an northeast coast mentality working in a western store). I tried to explain the less I spend on tax and shipping, the more I had to spend on more products from them. She didn't care. I am pretty certain that statement was not shared by the owner, but I didn't feel like looking him up and complaining. I don't think I've purchased anything from there since. I'm not talking about a few items or a couple hundred dollars. These are orders in the thousands of dollars.
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When I lived in "the big city", I always bought local. Most gave some sort of discount and since I had the privilege of holding whatever I wanted to buy in my hands, that trumped the dollar or five that I would have saved via mail order. One shop, would get to know their regular customers and direct them to the New Product announcements that they kept in a series of binders. If you placed a pre-order, you typically it at their cost plus 10%. Now that I moved, and the closest shop is over 150 miles away, I primarily resort to buying via the Internet. The main shop left where I used to live, doesn't do the Internet. I do stop by when I am in town and they have a ton of deals, such as a flat $25 for decoder installs, but won't do business via mail order. They will travel to regional train shows and close up shop for those weekends, so I guess their business is doing good.
Yes, there are many retail employees who don't seem to realise that sales equale their wages as well as the profit to the owner.
wright2626
Member
which ones you using in dallas/fort worth. i usually go to the one in hurst or north richland hills. if i have to, i will drive out to addison. usually one of them has what i am looking for. if i cant find what i am looking for, i will ask, you never know what stock hasn't been put on the shelf. i have looked at stuff they have on their shelves, then looked online for a deal on the same item. if it is close priceways i prefer to buy it at the store. if three weeks later i walk in, and the shop owner mentions he got the kit i asked about, then i feel obligated to buy it. i think that is the bigger issue in ethics is getting the shop owner to order something, then not buying it.
RCShadow
Member
I've only ever ordered one item special order and that was at Hobby Town. They required the item to be paid for up-front before they ordered it. I've spent quite a bit at Discount Model Trains in Addison and never been to the others you mention. I bought a couple of loco's, a tunnel, 2 6-packs of coal cars, some turn-outs, a caboose, two hotel buildings (kits), a decoder, and misc cars of differant flavors from DMT's. So I'm supporting my LHS I suppose
.wright2626
Member
discount model trains, if it just wasn't so far from fort worth it would be my first place to go.
rodney mcgiveron
Member
G'day...No issue for me in Tasmania , Australia...If I had to buy from a hobby shop here ...most if not all things , unless they have a clearance sale or something are maybe
10% dearer ..I wanted a second Athearn Genesis loco a few weeks back so just for curiosity I rang my nearest hobby store 130 km (80 mi.) away. Didn't have any Genesis,
not likely to anytime soon..but could order it in..Wait time 4-6 weeks with a non redeemable deposit unless the loco wasn't available or damaged..cost uncertain.depending on dollar fluctuation , but likely $360-380.. Then I emailed my usual supplier in Adelaide..Yes , they had an AG...SD70ACe...full sound...$329 delivered...with a direct bank deposit transaction that night , a Monday , I had the loco delivered to me via courier services on Wednesday morning at 8.30 am..from roughly 1300 km away..How's that for service?
Maybe in the big centres here and in the USA ,local hobby shops are still great (hope so) but for the rest ,online allows a much better access to this amazing hobby..Cheers Rod...
10% dearer ..I wanted a second Athearn Genesis loco a few weeks back so just for curiosity I rang my nearest hobby store 130 km (80 mi.) away. Didn't have any Genesis,
not likely to anytime soon..but could order it in..Wait time 4-6 weeks with a non redeemable deposit unless the loco wasn't available or damaged..cost uncertain.depending on dollar fluctuation , but likely $360-380.. Then I emailed my usual supplier in Adelaide..Yes , they had an AG...SD70ACe...full sound...$329 delivered...with a direct bank deposit transaction that night , a Monday , I had the loco delivered to me via courier services on Wednesday morning at 8.30 am..from roughly 1300 km away..How's that for service?
Maybe in the big centres here and in the USA ,local hobby shops are still great (hope so) but for the rest ,online allows a much better access to this amazing hobby..Cheers Rod...
As far as hobby shops specialising in trains is concerned here in Brisbane and surrounds, only a few. One that has a trains dept is quite pricey is only worth going to if no-one in the US has what you're looking for but they have (example NRE Gensets at AU $130 and then not long after MTS at US$79 or less). Even with the postage would have been well in front.
Otherwise there's seller about 2 hrs drive away that specialises in US prototype and does some good deals (don't get the chance to get there unfortunately, bad enough getting to the club) so online in the US is my first choice, certainly not worth paying the retail here + the local postage on top.
Otherwise there's seller about 2 hrs drive away that specialises in US prototype and does some good deals (don't get the chance to get there unfortunately, bad enough getting to the club) so online in the US is my first choice, certainly not worth paying the retail here + the local postage on top.
montanan
Whiskey Merchant
I'm with you when it comes to getting to hold and get a good first hand look at what I'm buying. As I have mentioned, there are no decent hobby shops for hundreds of miles and I have not real choice but to order over the internet. I have been disappointed on occasions by poor descriptions of a product, or complete lack of information. I have been bitten just a couple of times, but again, having no choice, there not much I can do about it. It's nice to save a few bucks when you can, but it is still nice to see a product in person.
We manage to travel quite a bit and when ever I find a decent hobby shop, my wife cringes.
