Hopefully Final Track Plan, 10 month anniversary (all comments welcomed)

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SpaceMouse

Fun Lover
What did you learn from it?

I question three of your stats: The "connecting track" "cars moved" and "trains". The connecting track doesn't matter too much in the analysis, but I can see it taking 26 trains for one operating session. I think the error is in the "cars moved" category. While Joe moves about 60% of his capacity, you move double your capacity.
 

GrandpaCoyote

Wiley Old Dog
SpaceMouse said:
What did you learn from it?

I question three of your stats: The "connecting track" "cars moved" and "trains". The connecting track doesn't matter too much in the analysis, but I can see it taking 26 trains for one operating session. I think the error is in the "cars moved" category. While Joe moves about 60% of his capacity, you move double your capacity.

:eek: :confused: :eek:

Chip,

Now this is a perfect example of why I shouldn't do math when I'm still groggy.
You are absolutely correct. I somehow went backwards on computing "connecting track" which of course then threw off "cars moved" which then in turn threw off "trains".
I have no idea how I made such an obvious mistake but thanks for catching it. I include the corrected numbers below.

HO SP Siskiyou Line (Joe Fugate)............................Route 66 Railway (GrandpaCoyote)

Room Area (sq ft): 810..............................................190
Layout Area (sq ft): 689 (85%).....................................92 (48%)
Number Turnouts: 122.................................................34
Total Track (ft/cars): 1078/2156.................................161'/322
Mainline Track (cars): 706..........................................153
Passing Track (cars): 338............................................13
Storage Track (cars): 516............................................43
Staging Track (cars): 336............................................58
Service Track (cars): 18...............................................0
Connecting Track (cars): 242........................................53
Passing Sidings: 10.......................................................2
Passing Train Length (cars): 44/33/12............................7/6/5
Staging Tracks: 11........................................................5
Staging Train Length (cars): 43/30/10.........................12/11/10
Maximum Cars: 816......................................................86
Cars Moved: 500.........................................................72
Trains: 16.7..............................................................12.1
Dispatching Threshold: 22 car trains...........................5 car trains


As for what I have learned from this? Well first off I wish I had more passing track that would be the one major thing I'd alter if I could. Currently I can move about 83-84% of my capacity - so that isn't so bad - but I can realistically only move it at around 5 cars at a time which is terrible. How ever I'm wondering if with a double main -some going west and some going east is going to affect this number either positively or negatively or not at all.

Thanks for catching my error SM, I appreciate it!

Peace.
Coyote

oh and P.S. A happy Father's Day to you and all the rest of us dads; hope it is a good one.
 
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GrandpaCoyote

Wiley Old Dog
It's me again Margaret... :D

Hi Gang,

First let me say thanks to you one and all that have taken the time and effort to look at my plans and offer me your advice. You are all great pals one and all and it means a lot to me. *thumbs up*

Here then is the current plan in toto with all the current changes and revisions.

Track Plan Info

  • Scale: HO
  • Name: Route 66 Railway.
  • Locale: Northern Arizona, AT&SF Mainline alongside Route 66 between Pinta and Holbrook AZ. (Set in the fictional town of Gila, AZ)
  • Period: 1954, late spring to early summer.
  • Prototype: Atchison, Topeka, and Santa Fe Railroad Company
  • Layout Height: Starting at 50".
  • Track: Code 83.
  • Total # of Turnouts: 34
  • Turnouts: #2 ½ wye on Cattle Wye and Industry spur, #5 on Industry Spurs, #6 on Mainline, #6 ½ curved leading to Staging and into left arm of Staging pinwheel ladder, #7 curved on right arm of Staging pinwheel ladder, #7 ½ curved on Corner Crossovers.
  • Curve Radii: 28" outside mainline, 26" inside mainline, some curves much broader in other areas- broadest curve in plan 6’ 2”.
  • Outer Loop: Eastbound Traffic, Right handed (clockwise) running.
  • Inner Loop: Westbound Traffic, Left handed (counter-clockwise) running.
  • Industries: A - Scrap Yard, B – Fuel Oil Supplier, C - Shipping Warehouse, D – Bolt and Screw Factory, E – Station, F - Concrete Plant, G – Oil Field/Oil Tanks, H – Freight House/Team Track, I - Stock pens, J – Agricultural Co Op, K – Gravel Company, L - Carpentry Company.
  • Points of Interest: A to C–2 to 13 Town of Gila, J-12 Blue Moon Drive In, G-2 E-2 Ranches.
  • N.B.: Lift out/Pullout area to inner area is highlighted in Yellow on the plan below.

View attachment 3478
(Click for a larger version or view at http://mysite.verizon.net/coyote97/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/BedPlan12.jpg )


Thanks in advance for your time, comments, critiques and suggestions.

Peace.
Coyote
 
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cuyama

Member
GC, I think one of the dangers of using Joe's (or any other formulae) is that they tend to have been devised with a particular type of layout in mind.

In your case, with a double mainline and multiple crossovers, in one important sense the mainlines are almost all also passing track. On the prototype, double track was used to increase the capacity (the "dispatching threshold" in Joe's metrics). The same would be true for your layout.

I've worked with a lot of different concepts, styles and eras of layouts. Some would be in sync with Joe's metrics and some widely variant. What makes them work or not work as layouts is a deeper understanding of the balance and interaction of staging, sidings, industry tracks, distances between elements, human factors (aisle width, control scheme, dispatching method, etc.), train scheduling, job roles duplicated, etc., etc., etc.

IMHO, there's a lot more diversity than one set of ratios can capture.

Regards,

Byron
 
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GrandpaCoyote

Wiley Old Dog
cuyama said:
GC, I think one of the dangers of using Joe's (or any other formulae) is that they tend to have been devised with a particular type of layout in mind.

In your case, with a double mainline and multiple crossovers, in one important sense the mainlines are almost all also passing track. On the prototype, double track was used to increase the capacity (the "dispatching threshold" in Joe's metrics). The same would be true for your layout.

I've worked with a lot of different concepts, styles and eras of layouts. Some would be in sync with Joe's metrics and some widely variant. What makes them work or not work as layouts is a deeper understanding of the balance and interaction of staging, sidings, industry tracks, distances between elements, human factors (aisle width, control scheme, dispatching method, etc.), train scheduling, job roles duplicated, etc., etc., etc.

IMHO, there's a lot more diversity than one set of ratios can capture.

Regards,

Byron
Byron,

I agree with you completely. For me however, as someone who is still very much a green horn, any sort of exercise of this sort aids me in starting to perceive the components of that deeper understanding you speak of. As an example - it was these sets of formula that brought my attention to my utter lack of passing sidings. For me in the end it’s just a tool one of many, and between us I can use all the tools I can get a hold of. ;)

That all being said I have looked over Roy F. Dohn's formulas (the one that were the basis for Mr. Fugate’s formulae) in the June 1968 issue of Model Railroader, I found his to me much more complex and to consider various elements not in Mr. Fugate’s, such as potential double main line and east and west bound traffic. The basic problem with them for me is they are simple a bit too complicated for me to easily do and thus did not prove to be a useful learning tool.

In the end though I do agree with you, your point is finely made and truthful. Any hobby that has such multiple levels of complexity and individuality as our will can never be embraced by one set of formulas. But they can serve as good learning and contemplation tools, in my opinion, if your mind is in the right space when you use them and don't look to them as an end all and be all.

Thanks as always for your insight and contributions, they are always good to read.

Peace.
Coyote
 

SpaceMouse

Fun Lover
cuyama said:
GC, I think one of the dangers of using Joe's (or any other formulae) is that they tend to have been devised with a particular type of layout in mind.

In your case, with a double mainline and multiple crossovers, in one important sense the mainlines are almost all also passing track. On the prototype, double track was used to increase the capacity (the "dispatching threshold" in Joe's metrics). The same would be true for your layout.

I've worked with a lot of different concepts, styles and eras of layouts. Some would be in sync with Joe's metrics and some widely variant. What makes them work or not work as layouts is a deeper understanding of the balance and interaction of staging, sidings, industry tracks, distances between elements, human factors (aisle width, control scheme, dispatching method, etc.), train scheduling, job roles duplicated, etc., etc., etc.

IMHO, there's a lot more diversity than one set of ratios can capture.

Regards,

Byron
Byron,

You are right, of course. Anytime that you use a metric you make assumtions that that metric indeed is a measure of what it is you are looking at. If you build to a metric, you are limiting your scope.

That said, Joe's metric can be a learning tool and expose weaknesses in layouts particularly if you have operations in mind. It certainly doesn't hurt to look at a design through that lens to see what pops up. For instance, if you have a vision of running long trains, Joe's metric might show you how long a train you can expect to run in an operating situation.

The only danger is if you take what you find too seriously and move away from your vision--your druthers.
 

grande man

Bonafied Grande Nut
I doubt this would fit, but check out this revision. Maybe you could increase the length of the two staging tracks by the closet doors by moving a turnout. Would another curved unit on the entry fit??? You'd have to move some things around, but the staging would be much more effective. With your current design, longer trains will only fit on certain tracks.

158421781.gif
 
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GrandpaCoyote

Wiley Old Dog
grande man said:
I doubt this would fit, but check out this revision. Maybe you could increase the length of the two staging tracks by the closet doors by moving a turnout. Would another curved unit on the entry fit??? You'd have to move some things around, but the staging would be much more effective. With your current design, longer trains will only fit on certain tracks.

158421781.gif

Grande,

I played around it last night and couldn't get it to work. Now if only there was a curved three-way we'd be cooking with gas! :) Thanks though for putting the idea forward. I do see the point of it, just not sure I have the skills to get those tracks longer. :eek:

Peace.
Coyote
 

GrandpaCoyote

Wiley Old Dog
Hi again Gang,

Here is the plan as of last night with changes made to lengthen the lift out/ pull out section to protect the track work on it. The lift out / pull out area is highlighted in yellow on the plan.

View attachment 3493

Thought some of you all might also like to see where the line is in real life and what its elevation is.

The Fictional town of Gila lies between Coronado Junction and Adamana:
View attachment 3492

Here is the elevation map:
View attachment 3494

Thought you all might enjoy that.
Have a great weekend and thanks as always for taking the time to look my stuff over.

Peace.
Coyote
 




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