Hopefully Final Track Plan, 10 month anniversary (all comments welcomed)

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HaggisKennedy

Coal Shoveler
SpaceMouse said:
The top part of the plan is what I'm talking about. Yes, he has a runaround in staging, but the nearest runaround to the top area is off to the right (in a different scene) and you cannot get to the switching area without two extra moves.

I think a runaround is needed in the main switching area at the top.
Yes, well, that would make it easy, but what's the fun in that? It's not always that easy with the prototype either. :)

From what you just said, I surmise you're talking about trains heading in a counter-clockwise direction. It will not be easy to do any switching from that direction. Yep, that's true. There are prototypes out there that wouldn't even try to do that; they'd drop off the cars at the next yard/siding for the return trip to switch. I do that on one part of my layout; it's a facing point spur to a small power plant. I need to put one-two cars of coal there. I don't even stop there going that way; since that job is a turn, I switch those cars on the way back. If it wasn't a turn job, but a one-way local, I would drop the cars at a small yard for the other way local to switch. In Grandpa's case, I'd drop the cars into that siding down by building "H" and have the clockwise job switch the industries. That job will jam all the outbound cars into the staging yard for the counterclockwise job to pick up.

The other option would be for the counterclockwise job to put all the switching cars into the staging yard for somebody else to work. In this manner, that job will do the pickup of outbound cars I mentioned in the last line of the previous paragraph.

Still, it's a good point, and it's Grandpa's call what he wants to do. Is it extra moves? Sure. But, there's ways around it, just like the prototype. The crews will piss and moan about it, but they'll do that anyway. :D

Kennedy
 

HaggisKennedy

Coal Shoveler
I've always like the idea that trains exiting from staging can go in either direction. But, I'd resist using that new Wye as a way to switch Industries A-D from the counterclockwise direction. Mainly because once you do that, you'll have to back up on the main to continue direction. Or, go into staging to switch directions.

I say this from the standpoint that in my mind, the staging in the closet is also being used as a 'Yard'. Your trains go in and out of there to pick up and drop off cars. That may not be what you originally had in mind when you drew that up, but it's a consideration.

:D

Kennedy
 

GrandpaCoyote

Wiley Old Dog
grande man said:
I was thinking that the intent was to duck under into the center of the layout for operating and viewing and that the space between the closet wall and layout was mainly for door clearance. In looking at your plan again, I see what you mean though, there's only 2 1/2 feet to work with even if you wanted to lay track in that space. Even so, if you did view from the center area like I was thinking, you could extend you mainline another 2 1/2 feet to the closet wall (double main times 2 sides = 10 extra feet of mainline action!), put a backdrop all the way around the layout (save the doors), and get that feeling that you're "in" the little world your going to create. You'd also have alot more space "inside" the operators area. That's what we did on our layout and it works well unless you get alot of visitors at once.
Grande,

Thanks for the explanation I understand much more clearly now, takes a bit to prime the pump these days. :rolleyes:

An oval filling the whole room is great idea and one I played with some time back except I ran into a few walls: I couldn’t figure out how to make an effective lift out/pullout section at the arch of a curve (which is where it'd end up being I fear), with that being such a necessarily thick section of benchwork and more importantly the OL has strange ideas that she wants to still be able to use the shelves in the closet, so that would require at least one other lift out/ pull out section... what are these women thinking! :confused: Use a closet??? :eek: But I'm kidding of course my OL is a great lady and loves the hobby, so what baby wants baby gets. So I nixed the idea of a larger Oval early on even though it is a good idea.

Here's a crazy question for you. Is there any possibility of going thru a wall into an adjoining room for staging space? You could fit a good bit on a 12" shelf in the next room, but it would require a "yard" operator there or some form of train detection. Just a thought... You can always tell the wife "it's just sheetrock".;)
That, I fear, is an impossibility. To the north I have an outside wall... *looks around shiftily* If I breach the outer wall of the house I won't need a doghouse, I'll need a lawyer and then a contractor, and not necessarily in that order. :D To the south (inside the closet) I am bound by a wall into the living room and right along a major electrical junction for the house, so that one is out. To the east and west the spare bedroom is sandwiched between the Bathroom and Master Bedroom Bathroom *imagines visions of himself in a Three Stooges plumbing situation* so that one is out also. I got the space easily enough but it's hemmed in, it's as if ... she knew...

As for the "it's just sheetrock" maneuver... let me tell you - don't marry East Texas rural girls - They know better!! ;)

I'd like to say again, I LOVE the theme. But then, I'm a little nuts about western railroading (and the ATSF)... ;)
Thank you Grande I'm happily nuts in the same way. I'm looking forward to getting my hands in on this.

Peace.
Coyote
 
Last edited by a moderator:

GrandpaCoyote

Wiley Old Dog
SpaceMouse said:
IF you went with a pinwheel configuration for you staging yard you could increase both the number of tracks and the length. (See Armstrong)

Chip,

Indeed, working on it today. Thanks for the advice, almost have it fit in and inside my clearances. I'll post it up later hopefully.

Thanks for the good advice, it is always helpful. :)

Peace.
Coyote
 

GrandpaCoyote

Wiley Old Dog
GandyDancer said:
Well all things considered this layout isn't really that big such that the train will be able to remain in one "scene" at all times. Besides a bigger issue I think we have all mostly forgotten in the last ten months as the true main reason for the layout is to show off Grandpa Coyote's SuperChief which is bigger than ANY of the scenes and will probably consume two of the storage tracks all by its lonesome.

Gandy,

Very true! And I swear I'll run the Super Chief on the layout even if it hare-lips the governor! However I did happen to find some scaled down consists for the Super Chief for modeling purposes and I may use one of them to save some space. I include them below for the gang’s edification and amusement.

View attachment 3467
(click to see larger version)

Peace.
Coyote
 

GrandpaCoyote

Wiley Old Dog
SpaceMouse said:
On a similar note, I'd like to see Diablo Canyon built on the wall with the window, even if it means losing an industry. It would make the layout on a scenic level. GC, post that picture you have of it, please.

So let it be written, So let it be done!

View attachment 3468 View attachment 3469

View attachment 3471 View attachment 3470


The only problem is that Canyon Diablo is about 70 miles west of the area im using now. But I am planing to put in a crossing over the Little Colorado River for some of the same feel.

Peace.
Coyote
 

GrandpaCoyote

Wiley Old Dog
HaggisKennedy said:
I've always like the idea that trains exiting from staging can go in either direction. But, I'd resist using that new Wye as a way to switch Industries A-D from the counterclockwise direction. Mainly because once you do that, you'll have to back up on the main to continue direction. Or, go into staging to switch directions.

I say this from the standpoint that in my mind, the staging in the closet is also being used as a 'Yard'. Your trains go in and out of there to pick up and drop off cars. That may not be what you originally had in mind when you drew that up, but it's a consideration.

:D

Kennedy
Kennedy,

I am in total agreement with you on this one. The Wye off the main to staging should, in my opinion, just be used to get trains on and off the layout with the correct directional orientation and not used to help switch industries per se.

Peace.
Coyote
 

GrandpaCoyote

Wiley Old Dog
Lots of folks have suggested that I change the staging in the closet to more of a pinwheel set up... SpaceMouse being head cheerleader for this improvement! Go Chip! :D

So I went back and rearranged turnouts to get closer to a pinwheel set up, took a bit to get it all to fit and still be inside my clearance preferences but got it done and gathered a lot more track space for doing it.

Here it is:

View attachment 3473
(click for a larger version)

Thanks to all those that suggested it, it was a fine idea.

Peace.
Coyote
 

SpaceMouse

Fun Lover
I really admire the way you respond to every on that gives you a suggestion.

I can't for the life of me imagine why you want the runarounds in staging. Unless your trains are Mu's back-to-back, you have to hand turn your engines anyway and it limits the space in your staging to keep the lanes clear. Since with switch machines it's about $60-100 investment to put them in, I suggest you hold off and see if you really need/want them. They can always be cut in later very easily. (I've been cutting in turnouts at our club for several weeks now.)
 

GrandpaCoyote

Wiley Old Dog
GrandpaCoyote said:
The only problem is that Canyon Diablo is about 70 miles west of the area im using now. But I am planing to put in a crossing over the Little Colorado River for some of the same feel.

Peace.
Coyote
Chip,

I completely misspoke on this one I have no idea why I said the Little Colorado River I meant to say Dead Wash -sorry for any confusion on that one. I must have been in outer space there.

Peace.
Coyote
 

GrandpaCoyote

Wiley Old Dog
SpaceMouse said:
I really admire the way you respond to every on that gives you a suggestion.

I can't for the life of me imagine why you want the runarounds in staging. Unless your trains are Mu's back-to-back, you have to hand turn your engines anyway and it limits the space in your staging to keep the lanes clear. Since with switch machines it's about $60-100 investment to put them in, I suggest you hold off and see if you really need/want them. They can always be cut in later very easily. (I've been cutting in turnouts at our club for several weeks now.)

Chip,

Thank you sir, it's just the way I was brought up. If all of you can take time from your lives to offer me good advice for nothing the very least I can do is take the time from mine to respond back. :)

You make some good points about the runarounds. My basic idea was that by having them there I could back engines out over them, turn them on the Wye and then shuttle them back in to be at the front of the back of trains they had previously been at the front end of... However you do have a good point on the money and I may put this into the wait and see box as you have suggested.

Thanks as always.

Peace.
Coyote
 

HaggisKennedy

Coal Shoveler
SpaceMouse said:
I can't for the life of me imagine why you want the runarounds in staging. Unless your trains are Mu's back-to-back, you have to hand turn your engines anyway and it limits the space in your staging to keep the lanes clear.
Because having runarounds in staging means that staging can be used as a yard as well. With this capability, you have more operational opportunities than with straight staging that can't do anything else.

A few weeks ago, I saw an NS Dash9 running long hood forward, pulling about 15-20 freight cars. The yard where it came from has no turning facilities, and this loco was MU'd elephant style to another widecab. That's the way they went into the yard in the first place.

My guess is that this train was going to pick up more cars at a much bigger yard south of here, where they'll add a loco to the front that will face the right direction. But, for this short (maybe 15mi or so) move, Long Hood Forward can be done.

With a runaround in staging, you can do this. Which gives you at least one more operation opportunity. The Wye that Grandpa put in will enhance that. This is different than my previous comment about using the Wye to help switching because the train is exiting the yard.

Kennedy
 

SpaceMouse

Fun Lover
HaggisKennedy said:
Because having runarounds in staging means that staging can be used as a yard as well. With this capability, you have more operational opportunities than with straight staging that can't do anything else.

A few weeks ago, I saw an NS Dash9 running long hood forward, pulling about 15-20 freight cars. The yard where it came from has no turning facilities, and this loco was MU'd elephant style to another widecab. That's the way they went into the yard in the first place.

My guess is that this train was going to pick up more cars at a much bigger yard south of here, where they'll add a loco to the front that will face the right direction. But, for this short (maybe 15mi or so) move, Long Hood Forward can be done.

With a runaround in staging, you can do this. Which gives you at least one more operation opportunity. The Wye that Grandpa put in will enhance that. This is different than my previous comment about using the Wye to help switching because the train is exiting the yard.

Kennedy
Point taken.
 

cuyama

Member
You also need to consider that with the "escape" crossovers at the end of the staging yard, one will need to keep parts of one or more tracks clear to provide a way for the engines to excape, signficantly reducing the staging capacity. GC had the same challenge in some of his early versions with crossovers in the too-short visible yard on the wye.

IMHO, it would be best to forego the crossovers in the staging yard for the increase in useable length and simplicity. With good trackwork, one should be able to back the trains out for restaging. If that degree of reliability is not achieved, re-staging can be a matter of pulling off the train with another engine to allow the headed-in engine to escape.

Regards,

Byron
 

HaggisKennedy

Coal Shoveler
My thoughts on Staging

HaggisKennedy said:
Because having runarounds in staging means that staging can be used as a yard as well. With this capability, you have more operational opportunities than with straight staging that can't do anything else.
I look at staging mainly as a yard. There's no such thing as staging in the real world, so I take the position that there should not be a strict defiinition of staging for our layouts. For us, staging is meant to show 'the rest of the world' from our layout. Which is fine. True prototype staging should be 'single track' if your layout is single track, double if double. You could add a passing siding if you want.

Since many of us decide to put in a yard-like staging area (like Grandpa did), I believe we should use that as a yard. You can use that as 'the end of your subdivision'. If you consider using your staging yard as a yard, like I have in this case, that opens up many more operating possibilites.

The fact that it's being used also as a true yard doesn't mean you can't do the 0-5-0 train building which is what many folks think of when they talk about staging. You have that one track that's supposedly attached to the rest of the world, so you can put together trains there. If your staging is 'the end of the world', that's even more reason to treat it as a yard. It's prototypical.

On my layout, I have a small yard that services the switching part of the layout. It's also supposed to represent the connection to the real world. That's the way I set it up. The locals and turns who provide cars to the switching part of the layout drop the cars into this small yard. The switch job switches industries, it uses the switching siding to shuffle up to 18 cars, as well as the yard itself when the siding isn't long enough.

If it's a turn, that train takes away all the cars that need to be taken away in that direction. If it's a one-way local, then a local going the other way will pick them up. That's where the 'rest of the world' incoming train comes in. I build it on the main, with the power just short of the siding switch, the go in, pull all the cars out, hook back up, air test, off we go! Prototypically correct.

Grandpa can do this with what he's ginned up in the staging closet. That just gives you one more train you can run!

Kennedy
 

HaggisKennedy

Coal Shoveler
cuyama said:
You also need to consider that with the "escape" crossovers at the end of the staging yard, one will need to keep parts of one or more tracks clear to provide a way for the engines to excape, signficantly reducing the staging capacity. GC had the same challenge in some of his early versions with crossovers in the too-short visible yard on the wye.
I had this problem when I was building the trackwork to the switching part of my layout. The minimun requirement was to be able to store 9 40/50' equivalent cars, plus two GP38-2s. The latter meant that the runaround 'tail' had to be 18" long, to clear the switch so the power can leave. So, the farthest switch in the stub siding had to be at least 18" from the bumper. I made it about 20-22". Train had to clear the near switch so the power could escape. That sometimes meant that the cut of cars to drop off had to be cut further to fit.

But, I got it to work, and from an operational standpoint, it's somewhat of a challenge. Especially for the switch job when they have to switch 9 cars in and 8 cars out, and your siding only has room for 11 cars max (once the power is out, you don't need the tail any longer).

Kennedy
 

GrandpaCoyote

Wiley Old Dog
cuyama said:
You also need to consider that with the "escape" crossovers at the end of the staging yard, one will need to keep parts of one or more tracks clear to provide a way for the engines to excape, signficantly reducing the staging capacity. GC had the same challenge in some of his early versions with crossovers in the too-short visible yard on the wye.

IMHO, it would be best to forego the crossovers in the staging yard for the increase in useable length and simplicity. With good trackwork, one should be able to back the trains out for restaging. If that degree of reliability is not achieved, re-staging can be a matter of pulling off the train with another engine to allow the headed-in engine to escape.

Regards,

Byron
Byron,

Yes, I see Kennedy's point, and it was where my mind was going when I put the crossovers in. That being said however, Chip, Texas Zephyr, Russ Bellinis, and you have also made some fine points and arguments.

All things being equal I think I'm going go with Chip' suggestion and pull the crossovers from the plan, build it without them, get a feel for it and then after a little hands on experience if I think they would add, just cut them in to the already existing track work.

Since this will be a staging area, in a closet no less, I think that this is the best way to go. It would require no fiddling with or messing up of scenery or structure placements etc, so in this case I believe I'm going to with the lesser of two evils and see how it works out.

Thank you for your advice it is always illuminating and edifying.

Peace.
Coyote
 

GrandpaCoyote

Wiley Old Dog
HaggisKennedy said:
Because having runarounds in staging means that staging can be used as a yard as well. With this capability, you have more operational opportunities than with straight staging that can't do anything else.

A few weeks ago, I saw an NS Dash9 running long hood forward, pulling about 15-20 freight cars. The yard where it came from has no turning facilities, and this loco was MU'd elephant style to another widecab. That's the way they went into the yard in the first place.

My guess is that this train was going to pick up more cars at a much bigger yard south of here, where they'll add a loco to the front that will face the right direction. But, for this short (maybe 15mi or so) move, Long Hood Forward can be done.

With a runaround in staging, you can do this. Which gives you at least one more operation opportunity. The Wye that Grandpa put in will enhance that. This is different than my previous comment about using the Wye to help switching because the train is exiting the yard.

Kennedy
Kennedy,

That sir is a more fully formed example of the tiny spark of an idea I had in my head when I placed the crossovers on the staging. :) Thank you posting this.

Peace.
Coyote
 

GrandpaCoyote

Wiley Old Dog
SpaceMouse said:
Coyote, perhaps this would be a good time to put your plan to Joe Fugate's operational formula. I tried it and found some very interesting things out about my layout.

http://www.trains.com/community/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=66815
Chip,
Great idea! Here are my stats side by side with Joe’s.


HO SP Siskiyou Line (Joe Fugate)............................Route 66 Railway (GrandpaCoyote)

Room Area (sq ft): 810..............................................190
Layout Area (sq ft): 689 (85%).....................................92 (c.47%)
Number Turnouts: 122.................................................33
Total Track (ft/cars): 1078/2156.................................161/322
Mainline Track (cars): 706..........................................153
Passing Track (cars): 338............................................13
Storage Track (cars): 516............................................43
Staging Track (cars): 336.............................................58
Service Track (cars): 18................................................0
Connecting Track (cars): 242.......................................266
Passing Sidings: 10........................................................2
Passing Train Length (cars): 44/33/12............................7/6/5
Staging Tracks: 11........................................................5
Staging Train Length (cars): 43/30/10.........................12/11/10
Maximum Cars: 816......................................................85
Cars Moved: 500........................................................158
Trains: 16.7..............................................................26.3
Dispatching Threshold: 22 car trains...........................6 car trains


Thanks for the suggestion.

Peace.
Coyote
 




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