Hi - building a small n scale DCC switching layout with hand laid code 40 rail and FastTracks #6 turnouts. Will be using 8 wheel diesels with all wheel pickup. Is it really necessary to power the frogs? What has been your experience with regards to performance - will 3 wheel pickup when going over the frogs good enough? Thanks for opinions.
Do Frogs Really Need to be Powered?
- Thread starter rreitz
- Start date
2Tracks
Ol' School
For better reliability!
ok, I'm running a wire down under for each frog just in case. This setup has ~30 turnouts and powering them with switch machines will break the bank right now. Has anyone come up with a bootleg way to construct a manual throw for n scale turnout that will also route the power to the frog? All the turnouts will be in easy reach.
D&J RailRoad
Professor of HO
I use double pole double throw slide switches for my yard turnouts. The slide keeps the turnout in place and the contacts power the frogs. Very inexpensive.
It comes down to this:
Powered frogs served the pre-DCC era of analog running where whole train length track sections (blocks) were gapped and turned on and off via toggles to have independence of trains..otherwise all trains would move when the power pack was turned up and stop when turned down...
So switches with powered frogs assisted that activity by, depending which way points were thrown, would isolate/stop/house a train in a spur or siding while the other train was running, by shutting off power...
Today, with DCC control that kind of frog/points activity is no longer needed for independence of trains...BUT, if, IF you have short wheel base locos such as 0-4-0s, 0-6-0s, or 4 wheeled diesel switchers which stall on unpowered 'all live' switches, then you may want to power the frogs of switches where they stall...
Otherwise, NO, in DCC you do not need (power-routing) powered frogs if you can help it.....Unpowered (all-live) are fine for DCC...
Powered frogs served the pre-DCC era of analog running where whole train length track sections (blocks) were gapped and turned on and off via toggles to have independence of trains..otherwise all trains would move when the power pack was turned up and stop when turned down...
So switches with powered frogs assisted that activity by, depending which way points were thrown, would isolate/stop/house a train in a spur or siding while the other train was running, by shutting off power...
Today, with DCC control that kind of frog/points activity is no longer needed for independence of trains...BUT, if, IF you have short wheel base locos such as 0-4-0s, 0-6-0s, or 4 wheeled diesel switchers which stall on unpowered 'all live' switches, then you may want to power the frogs of switches where they stall...
Otherwise, NO, in DCC you do not need (power-routing) powered frogs if you can help it.....Unpowered (all-live) are fine for DCC...
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On my switching layout, I found that powering the frogs made a huge improvement in slow speed switching. If you mostly have trains running around a loop at a relatively high speed, momentum will take the locos through dead spots on the turnouts. But when you are crawling around a complex set of turnouts, you absolutely need powered frogs. DCC/DC has no effect on contact issues - if you don't have power in a turnout, it is a problem regardless of the power system used.
I use Hex Frog juicers from Tam Valley on my layout to power the metal frogs on my Atlas turnouts (HO scale). It was very easy to wire up the frogs and the frog juicers need no configuration at all - they just work.
I use Hex Frog juicers from Tam Valley on my layout to power the metal frogs on my Atlas turnouts (HO scale). It was very easy to wire up the frogs and the frog juicers need no configuration at all - they just work.
D&J RailRoad
Professor of HO
I think this might be true if you're using power keepers or another type of on board power reservoir in your locomotive. If not, you're going to have to deal with a dead section of track if ya leave a frog unpowered.
Interesting. What slide switches are you using and could you possibly post a picture? Thanks!
D&J RailRoad
Professor of HO
These are slide switches I've had on hand for a few decades but they're still just good as they were way back when.
I drilled a hole through the black tab so I could feed a paper clip through it. The paper clip is fed under the throw bar of the turnout and is bent to stick up through the hole between the rail points on the throw bar then bent over. Wires for lights or frog power are then soldered to the the tabs under the slide switch. I leave a little bend in the paper clip between the tab on the slide switch and were it goes under the throw bar. This is so it can be adjusted to the correct length for each rail to push up against its appropriate rail.
I drilled a hole through the black tab so I could feed a paper clip through it. The paper clip is fed under the throw bar of the turnout and is bent to stick up through the hole between the rail points on the throw bar then bent over. Wires for lights or frog power are then soldered to the the tabs under the slide switch. I leave a little bend in the paper clip between the tab on the slide switch and were it goes under the throw bar. This is so it can be adjusted to the correct length for each rail to push up against its appropriate rail.
D&JRR in post #9 is not exactly correct in stating that non-powered frogs cause "a dead section of track" (in their wake)...
All tracks remain alive and well to and from 'all-live' un-powered-frog switches.. Only the frog is dead...
since you are DCC, you can employ un-powered frogs everywhere...Then, if, IF a certain loco stalls at a frog you can then come in and modify it via the various ways available..If no stall out is incurred then you're OK with non powered switches in DCC...
Since you will be running 8 wheel diesels with all wheel pickup I strongly doubt you'll be having any stall outs over cold frogs..
All tracks remain alive and well to and from 'all-live' un-powered-frog switches.. Only the frog is dead...
since you are DCC, you can employ un-powered frogs everywhere...Then, if, IF a certain loco stalls at a frog you can then come in and modify it via the various ways available..If no stall out is incurred then you're OK with non powered switches in DCC...
Since you will be running 8 wheel diesels with all wheel pickup I strongly doubt you'll be having any stall outs over cold frogs..
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D&J RailRoad
Professor of HO
I didn't want to wait and find out at an op session that a #10 frog was stalling my trains. I have all my frogs powered, on the mainline as well as the yards and sidings.
D&J RailRoad
Professor of HO
I've used the Caboose Hobbies ground throws. During op sessions I see operators needing to throw the turnout at the last moment and not being able to get a finger nail under the lever. I converted all my manual turnouts to slide switches which are much easier to just stab with the finger at the last moment.
cv_acr
Well-Known Member
PowrCab: the frog *IS* the "dead section of track" we're talking about here. It's a short, but dead section of track. If the gaps around the frog are far enough apart, both wheels on one side of a 2-axle/4-wheel truck could be on the dead spot. If all wheels are picking up, then the other truck should still be fully powered so it's not normally an issue, but as mentioned issues could pop up if there's a dirty wheel or rail, so the less wheels picking up power the more changes of unreliable contact.
You can also have an issue if a piece of equipment is just the perfect length to have a truck parked on two different dead frogs in a row. We had some issues with some RDCs (self-propelled passenger cars) that were exactly the right length to be on both dead frogs on a certain crossover on our club layout. (Handlaid track, un powered frogs.)
Also we are very specifically NOT talking about "power routing" switches that make entire tracks "dead" like you are.
And this DC vs. DCC slant is kind of irrelevant. The control system doesn't make much of a different to electrically dead pieces of rail.
Greg@mnrr
Section Hand
On my current layout none of my Code 83 #4 and #6 Atlas turnouts have powered frogs and I haven't had a problem. I run mostly four and six axle locomotives and that maybe the reason for the lack of stalling.
On my prior layout with Code 70 turnouts I powered the frogs and It didn't seem to make much difference.
I believe that using short wheel based locomotives is the primary reason for powered frogs.
Greg
On my prior layout with Code 70 turnouts I powered the frogs and It didn't seem to make much difference.
I believe that using short wheel based locomotives is the primary reason for powered frogs.
Greg
DanRaitz
Active Member
