Athearn BB no more?


Myself, I do not see kitbuilding completely disappearing but what i do see is some bumpy roads ahead. Many of us remember shop classes in school--there are a lot of areas with NO shop classes now. Kinda makes one wonder what some educators were thinking --- don't it? Same thing here--many of these BB's were a beginners set to begin with---anyone know of a beginners level kit now?

Now, if we continue down the no kits road the way it seems to be going then there will be an interesting scenario wherein the scratchbuilder and the RTR may be the only games in town...

I've been accused of being a cynical old grump many a time---that is not surprising. But again. When space at a hobby table gets taken out--when choices for the kitbuilder/basher keeps getting taken out--do not be surprised at the results. Afterall those guys are still a part of the hobby.

I could say this-----the Scratchbasher/kitbuilder as Radical Other---another underclass----:(
 
Sad to see a tradition fade away, but it isn't the first.

The reality is that these kits could not stand up to the higher level of detail that we want. If they were profitable, they would not have been discontinued. I'm sure anyone who wants them will be able to find them for many years to come at swap meets or on e-Bay. There are probably hundreds of thousands in basements around the country, in estates, or in our own basements in our "some day I gotta get around to building that" stacks. I have a couple dozen BB locos here that I have good intentions for :D

There are still plenty of kits available out there if you want to build one. The one thing I have not seen mentioned that does concern me is that there is nothing to take there place in the way of something to offer the youngster with limited spending money, which probably means that not enough youngsters are interested in our hobby. That's the scary part if it's true :eek:
 
stang_crazy said:
If ya really think about it they could still offer the BB line. Just use the new RTR kits Offer them unbuilt maybe just dont make em by the boat load.

They wouldnt have to pay to have them assembled. They could offer them at a lower price.
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I don't know if you remember the Life Like/Proto car kits when they first came out. I was shown one that had been assembled, thought it was a very good kit for the price (I think it was $12), and bought a dozen, or one of each number offered. I built exactly one, and took the rest to a swap meet the next year and sold them. These cars very quickly got the rep of being complex and tough to assemble, and sales weren't all that great. I think they released a Gon, a stock car, a box car, and a hopper before going strictly RTR.
I'm sure Horizon looked at Life Like/Walthers' underwhelming sales for those models, and decided against offering their cars that way.
 
I think the Mather stock car was part of that line and it was (and is) a bear to assemble. I note that even Walthers has given up on that kit, even after making it easier to build by having some of the detail parts already in place and calling it the "Timesaver" kit. There are still a few available for $20 but they are being phased out in favor of the assembled version for $32. After building one of these miserable models, I would gladly pay the additional $12 if I wanted a Mather car not to have to go through that again.

One thing that hasn't been mentioned is the huge advantage of the BB line is that it really was easy to assemble. Compared to Silver Streak, Red Ball, and numerous other kits I can think of, the BB cars could be put together by almost anyone and you had a decent looking model when you were done. I think some of the other "craftsman" type kits drove more people from the hobby than they attracted. For those that remember the pre-BB Athearn kits, they were no easy task to put together, with metal car sides, ends, roof, and bottom all separate pieces, originally built around a block of wood. The later models did away with the wood block but they still took a good long time to put together. The hobby was slowly dying before the BB line of engines and cars were introduced. Regular people, not craftmen, could put together kits and not end up throwing them against a wall. The BB line many well have saved the hobby back in the 60's.

As a corollary to today, the RTR products are breathing new life into the hobby. Many people have more money than they have time. The RTR items that are available today aren't all that much more in inflation adjusted dollars than the BB line was in 1966, when I first started buying them. The quality and detail level is beyond what any of us in those days long past could ever have imagined. The difference today is the people in the hobby have a choice. If you want to take it out of the box and run it, you can do so. There are still plenty of kits around for those who wish to build them. I haven't seen any decrease in scratchbuilding supplies of those who want to go that route. Assuming model railroading is a big tent, where we don't scorn people because they may not have certain skills we have, then we are living in the best of times I've seen for model railroading. I mourn the passing of the BB line not because it was still needed or even relevant to the hobby today. I mourn it because it is a symbol of my youth passing away. Model trains have been a history of change, with high peaks and deep lows, for almost 100 years now. This is just another symbol that yesterday is not the same as today, and tomorrow won't be the same as today either.
 
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Espeefan said:
Sad to see a tradition fade away, but it isn't the first.

The reality is that these kits could not stand up to the higher level of detail that we want. If they were profitable, they would not have been discontinued. I'm sure anyone who wants them will be able to find them for many years to come at swap meets or on e-Bay. There are probably hundreds of thousands in basements around the country, in estates, or in our own basements in our "some day I gotta get around to building that" stacks. I have a couple dozen BB locos here that I have good intentions for :D

There are still plenty of kits available out there if you want to build one. The one thing I have not seen mentioned that does concern me is that there is nothing to take there place in the way of something to offer the youngster with limited spending money, which probably means that not enough youngsters are interested in our hobby. That's the scary part if it's true :eek:
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The last point does get missed. And what of them? Kind of hard to get them interested if the cost is more than what is affordable. But then if the interest is not there then-----:confused: Again I ask--anyone have an idea of what to replace BB kits with to entice the beginner? There must be something comparable---and let us not hit them with--but it isn't realistic enough--
 
Jim/Barry, I agree. At a cost of sometimes 4-5x the cost of a BB "rattle box", RTR is not such a great deal. How will a 12-year old afford an RTR? How many of us went to the hobby shop, in our yoUnger days with a $5 bill and came home with two new box cars? I happened to be one of those kids. And I still have many of those cars today.

And we are correct in critiquing RTR as a product that gets the younger generation involved in the hobby. It will fail miserably in that respect. Yet, kids today would rather sit in front of a screen, controller in hand and begin their journey to carpal tunnel land. Those who do have their imaginations directed into model railroading are led by fathers, grandfathers, and uncles who may have been in the hobby for years and years. But, in today's society, not many parents even recognize their children, let alone spend time with them in meaningful enterprise.

My grandson and I used to spend hours putting together the dozen or so freight cars we brought home from Phil's Hobby Shop or the train show at the dining room table just a few short years ago, 12-13 years ago to be exact. At 4-years old he could screw on the trucks. I can still see the smile on his round face when he placed the car on the layout. Of course I always had to tighten the trucks so that they wouldn't wobble of the rails and fall over but that didn't alter his pride of accomplishment. That is the seed planted by BB kits. And without the seed, the plant will not grow, nor will it ever bear fruit.

This is my biggest fear, that without products like the BB, many will never be drawn into our passion, model railroading. Some will scoff at my prediction. Most of them don't seem to have the respect for these little blue boxes and what they truly mean to the hobby. But these kits, with their lack of intricate detail, parts on sprues, trucks laying loose in a box, and that little manila envelope, is and was the backbone of our hobby. They are the seed that allowed our hobby to grow.

Will the hobby still be around in 50 years? I wonder. I imagine that it will. Not to the degree it is today, I fear. As much as The introduction of affordable kit models and DCC was a boon to our hobby, the loss of kit models is a bane. Those of you who don't understand that must forget where we all began our journey, most of us anyway.

Again, I cannot understand how an RTR can be cheaper to produce. It's obviously not. Shelf prices are proof of that. I still have BB boxes priced at $2.50, $2.75, $3.25. Where do you see RTR priced anywhere near those prices. Quite simply, you don't. The last BB cars I purchased were priced at $7.95, and $11.95 each for a set of NKP passenger cars. that was about a month ago. I could have purchased similar box cars at $32.95. The price differential there is obvious. Tell me how that 12-year old can afford to begin in the hobby. Another potential modeler will be lost. Another example of how this hobby may dwindle.

So, chide me if you will. The hobby has lost a great catalyst. Some think not. Bu, for those of us who have been on this road for so long can understand, and even agree, that this hole created is much more than a perceived evolution in our hobby, it may well be a sign that the hobby is teetering on the brink of becoming extinct, just like the yo-yo, the hula hoop, pedal cars.......... I may not see it in my lifetime, nor you in yours, but in two, maybe three generations it could very well be no more. Only remembered as a collector status, on some shelves, by only the most loyal of individuals, just like the pedal car.

America's Greatest Hobby is with us now, will it still be there after we leave? Probably, but not for long. We may not witness it, but the end of the line is up ahead.

Bob
 
blownoutcylinder said:
The last point does get missed. And what of them? Kind of hard to get them interested if the cost is more than what is affordable. But then if the interest is not there then-----:confused: Again I ask--anyone have an idea of what to replace BB kits with to entice the beginner? There must be something comparable---and let us not hit them with--but it isn't realistic enough--
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Don't forget about Accurail. Their kits are as easy as the blue box kits and very similarly priced. Not only that, they're made in the United States.
 
Bob, let's take the value of $5 in 1966. That would buy me a BB kit, Kadee couplers, and metal wheels in 1966. The present value of that $5 is $32.83 according to the inflation calculator at http://www.westegg.com/inflation/. Now, lets look at the 50' Athearn RTR boxcar at http://www.modeltrainstuff.com/50_FMC_Double_Door_Box_BN_1_p/ath-92967.htm for $14.29 that comes with metal wheels and McHenry knuckle couplers. I can buy two of those with my 1966 $5 and pay for the shipping and I still have some money left over if I really want to replace the couplers. The paint quality is better than a BB, the lettering is better than a BB, even the weight is closer to NMRA standards than the slab of metal that came with each BB car, regardless of type. All that and you get double the value we did in 1966.

I don't see how this is pricing kids out of the market. Kids not old enough to get jobs regularly convince their parents to buy them $400 video game systems. I'm sure that they could convince them to buy some trains for the same price if they were really into trains. If the young person is old enough to work (another pet peeve, but I won't got there), they get at least $7.25 an hour and sometimes, as high as $8.25 an hour, depending on what state they live in. When I got my first job in 1962, the minimum wage was $1.25 an hour. It was still $1.25 an hour in 1966, when I started buying trains. A young person working 20 hours a week now makes at least $145 a week, before taxes, points, and plugs. :). The relative purchasing power for model trains has almost doubled since 1966 and young people today are getting way nicer cars than we did, all for less relative dollars.

I can't disagree with the premise that having fewer kit options will make it take longer for a modeler to develop some skills, but they will develop them, if they are interested. If not, they can put the time into more prototype research and build layouts with better scenery than most layouts I remember from 1966. That's up to each individual to decide. I made a pretty good part-time living in the late 60's and early 70's kitbashing, painting, and decaling cars and engines for people who didn't have those skills. That's different from RTR....how? I was just a middleman who delivered them an RTR product. Now they can buy them off the shelf, which is a lot easier than hunting around for a guy who can build and paint what you bought.

My basic, and continuing, point is that the demise of the BB kit is not pricing anyone out of the market. The relative cost to buy many RTR cars is less in present day dollars. I just don't see how being able to get a higher quality product for less money is bad for the hobby. It's kind of like computers. Anyone want to go back to the days of the Altair and tape drives for hundreds of dollars?
 
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How is prototype research developing skills? Am I missing something here? And what skills will they use to build these layouts? Won't be the skills gained from books. They may have more resources to pool and extract their information, but we had much the same resources. I believe they were called libraries, right of ways, sidings, and crossings.The ease of access is the only difference there, it's called the internet.

As a 13-year old, I sometimes earned $80-$120 a week, depending on the time of year. Paper routes, mowing lawns, baling hay....... A good chunk of change for a lad that age. I was allowed to keep $20 of my weekly salary in my pocket. The rest went into the bank. What bank will our hobby be using? My guess is they won't, they have nothing to invest. Those blue, yellow, red boxes were the investment. Notice I said were. Their demise could well be catastrophic. And the skills, especially the confidence they gave, are an enormous intangible. So, the companies don't make a 40% margin. They plant the seed and nurture the new, sometimes young, modeler. You know firearm, Jim. Did you place every round in the 10-ring when you first started shooting? Me neither. What did it take to get to that level? Practice, rounds on the range, a good coach. Where do you see those tools in RTR? I don't. I fired thousands, if not millions, before I was able to shoot Camp Perrry, IPSC, and Gunsight competitions. No different in the hobby of model railroading. How many cars did I assemble before I attempted my first "bash" project.....hundreds. This is my point. There are no novices at Camp Perry. And IMO there will be fewer craftsmen in the hobby in less than 10 years, .........and maybe near extinction in 50 years. There are far fewer today than when I really got involve. When I finally came out of my basement and took a look around at what was outside of the magazines I read and the hobby shops I visited, traveling to shows, joining a club and such. Then my horizons were most definitely widened.

The bench, and assembling models, is to model railroading as the shooting range is to firearms. In order to be good and attain the skills to master the any hobby one must have a platform to develop and practice those skills. Make adjustments, learn what works, and what doesn't. The BB provided that platform. I doubt any can argue that point. Just where will one go now to get the needed practice and develop the skills? I don't think opening a box, sliding a car out, placing it on the track is gonna qualify. I'd be interested in knowing just what everyone means by downgrading the importance of the "rattle box" model and what it means to the future of model railroaders.

It has been said that the new RTR's are more detailed. Why not use those same molds to manufacture the same body for kits? The theory that has been given on higher detail is not ballasted to contain the questions of why not. There is no reason other than the manufacturers have seen fit to market a product with a higher return. Simple Business 101. But, is it more bang for the buck? We'll see. But, I doubt that RTR models contributes as much to the hobby as kits.

Call me set in my ways, call me a crazy ol' fart, call me resistant to change, you'd be partly correct. About 33% to be exact. I am not set in my ways, nor am I resistant to change. I herald the introduction to DCC I can see how it revolutionized the hobby. It did nothing to actually change the hobby. Before we would run multiple trains on a layout. What DCC did for us is clearly on a much higher plane than RTR. DCC simplified operation. Add realism with sound and individual cab control vs. power block control. We lost no skills in its use. We still have to wire the layout. But, with RTR we have lost something. Pass it off as trivial, but I do believe the move to abandon BB kits is going to come back and bite us. And maybe sooner than we think.

Bob
 
UP2CSX said:
I can't disagree with the premise that having fewer kit options will make it take longer for a modeler to develop some skills, but they will develop them, if they are interested.
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Bob, I think we are starting get to the point point where the horse is not only dead, it's in rigor mortis. :) However, if you note, in my last reply, I've put in bold what I think is the issue. If a person is interested in developing skills in kitbashing and scratchbuilding, they will still do so, regardless of the availability of BB kits. A significant proportion of members of this hobby never had the interest in the days of BB kits but some were forced into it because there was no other alternative if you wanted, say, a UP CA-3 caboose, and couldn't afford brass. I have a kitbashed Ca-3 from the old days, an Overland brass CA-3 that I paid the enormous sum of $27 for in 1969, and a plastic RTR CA-3 caboose from Centralia Car Shops. Guess which one I run the most often? My kitbashed caboose looks pretty awful now, although it looked good in 1967. The brass caboose looks OK but the solder on the trucks is falling apart and I think I've put my last blob on the last piece of truck I can find to hold it together for a bit longer. It rolls like it has Elmer's glue for axle bearings. I know I can buy replacement trucks but the only ones available are the brass Overland models GSI trucks with a starting bid of $26 and $5 shipping. At that price, I might as well spend a few more bucks and buy another Centralia model since the ladders and end platforms on the Overland model are starting to become unsoldered also. The Centralia model is more accurate, has finer details than the Overland model, and rolls great on the plastic trucks with metal wheels.

Your reference to learning how to use firearms is well taken but getting to Camp Perry is for the top .005% of shooters in this country. I know very few modelers who want to put that kind of effort into what's supposed to be a a fun and relaxing hobby. Competitive shooting is anything but.

At this point, it's really a moot issue, since no more new BB kits will be coming off the line. There are enough in the pipeline and on people's shelves that you and I will both be dead long before the supply dries up. If people really want them, they will snap them up. If not, they will continue to gather dust as more and more modelers buy RTR. Neither of us knows what the ultimate outcome will be. I think we've both articulated our positions well and I'm willing to let it go at that.
 
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All I can say is that the BB kits were the cheapest and most reliable kits on the market. 5 mints to build and they would last you a life time. biggest PITA was the coupler clips but glue could fix that easy. all those nice details just fall off anyways. just like our old steam and diesels with all the prototype d rings and such. after 3 years of use there falling off and it bcomes more noticable. I like to Let the engines and cabosse standout as a master piece that I built, I pull that string of old weatherd BB cars between them and no one ever comments on those parts missing on the under sides, unless I derail LOL.
 
The other day when I was at my local shop I had noticed that a lot of their BB kits were gone. I asked what's going on with Athearn. The guy pretty much said they are doing away with them(BB Kits). I'm disappointed that this is happening and I understand why($$). Its not like I need anymore cars since I have LOTS of different manufactures but the BB kit was/is my favorite due to the price. I'd say the majority of my rolling stock is BB. Yah they all needed improvements such as wheels and couplers, but doing the math the ready to roll is more expensive than a BB kit after adding the wheels and couplers. I wish the price was some what comparable, but oh well. The ready to roll kits are nice, but all I see that makes them better is the wheels and detail stuff. I can do the paint job myself that I enjoy, but will add that is a nice thing about the ready to roll is the variety of roads. Only bad thing is I have to replace the couplers on them, so again the price goes up.
I feel for the younger guys that are getting into the hobby nowadays. The price of everything is pretty high. The starter sets aren't enough and thats where the BB kits came in handy. Models are expensive, paints, scenery stuff, track, switches, etc. I'm glad I've been in the hobby for over 20 years.
 
You know all this talk on the subject reminds me of when they started to do away with metal and wood kits and went more towards plasitc in the first place.
Oh the uproar from the "old timers" in the hobby shop!
Can you imagine a day when you buy the locomotive not only built and detailed but also weathered?
That day is almost here, if not already! You can already get freight cars that are pretty much done.
Yes I do miss building some things, and there are still kits out there as well as other manufacturers that still offer kits.

It feels kind of funny buying something and throwing it right onto the tracks sometimes...
 
I'll miss the BB kits, since they were a part of my childhood and I liked that they often had my roadnames more frequently than they do in the RTR line, but I'd like to suggest that if we are wanting to support companies who make kits, we buy them.

I'm personally looking forward to Accurail's release of ICG heralded 70tn offset hoppers, and the fact I can get decals, so I can make a small unit train of 20-25 cars. I'm going to bite the bullet and try my hand at a Wright Track kit. I just found out that Bowser makes a N8 caboose kit in ICG paint, as well as some other things too.
 
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