8x4 to 10x7 - Now what!.....


..FWIW, Kalmbach's 101 Track Plan book has several layouts with basically only a TT that would be right at home in your layout....

That prompted me to stop by the LHS and grab a copy - Thanks! - I have the Atlas books, and they're helpful, but this is awesome..... They even have a version of the V&T - Very cool.

Btw - found a book which may have quite a bit of inspiration for you - a discussion of how to model the V&T as a model railroad, in the Kalmbach book "Classic Railroads You Can Model".

That, as can be guessed from the prices, was not available at the LHS.....

["New" copies are @ ~$120ea :eek:] I thought I had all of the published literature, but that's a new one on me - Thanks for the find!

Cheers,
Ian
 
101 Track Plans is where I got most of my inspiration, but some people suggest it does not use modern design theory. Granted, the designs are from 1956, but I think the only things that have changed much since then are some materials and DCC. DCC negates a bunch of wiring and maybe the need for some dual-mains to run multiple trains, but I don't see where basic design has changed at all.

What has changed is that more people want to model railroads so their scenes look "more realistic", rather than looping back and forth through a scene to create a longer mainline.

The looping back and forth approach (and passing several times through the same scene on different levels was very popular in the 1950s and 1960s, where increasing mainline run length was the main design goal.

Then came the push towards "sincere scenes" - where the trains move once through each scene, and move in the same direction through the scene, instead of doubling back towards the rear of the scene.

It was part of a general desire to make layouts look more like a real railroad, and run more like a real railroad.

It was realized that passing through the same scene multiple times tended to make the scene look more less realistic. Especially if the train changes directions while passing through the scene - first going left, then right, then left again.

It is pretty rare (at least outside a few places in the Swiss alps and such places) to have trains double back to climb up a mountain.

It is also very rare anywhere to have multiple alternative parallel paths between two places on the layout (unless the alternative paths belongs to different railroads).

It was realized that to make run far longer, it would be possible to introduce operational challenges for the train along it's way instead of just trying to make the track longer.

Say you have a single track mainline through a small western town and you want to make the run longer, while still maintaining prototype realism.

Operations do not have to include switching, if you hate switching. You can do a simple thing like adding a water tank, and stopping the train to take on water before heading out of town.

Add a passing siding, and have your train go into the siding and wait for another train coming in the opposite direction.

Can be fully automated on DC, if you so desire, using magnetic switches and relays in some form - an entirely hands off approach, where the train starts and stops on it's way through scenes.

Or using a little interaction, cut the engine off, run it around it's train, turning it on a turntable or turning wye, and then coupling to the other end of the train before heading back in the opposite direction.

Anyways - these days the pendulum is way over towards realism, prototype operations and sincere scenes.

Doesn't mean that you cannot do an old style design.

It just means that the old style no longer is so popular, and you will find fewer people who will have suggestions on how to carry off such a design in a good way.

In theory, the main way of making a spaghetti bowl look good is through the use of scenery. But scenery is apparently low on your list of priorities.

I don't know about you, but for me, while it is possible to operate on not yet scenicked layouts (focusing on what you do with the trains, and ignoring the missing landscapes), it doesn't make an awful lot of sense to watch a "scenic run" (where the scenery would be the main goal) through more or less nude bench work.

Is sitting or standing next to the layout watching the train take 2 minutes to amble through a bare scene at constant speed, and then having to walk over to the opposite side and stand there for 2 minutes watching the train amble through that bare scene on that side (or wait for two minutes for the train to come back to the first scene) a lot more fun than sitting in a comfy chair, watching a train come into a modeled scene "from down the line" (ie staging, do something in the scene - e.g. automatically stop to take on water on the way into town, then go into the siding by the depot to drop off passengers and wait for another train, and then, when the other train has arrived on track 2, to depart out of town, continuing on it's journey "up the line"?

There are lots of ways of doing display layouts. I guess I just don't see the point of focusing almost exclusively on increasing the quantity of run, when it does not significantly improve the quality of the run.

For you, in which way is increasing the quantity of track length equivalent to increasing the quality of the run?

Anyways, for a fairly decent introduction to various aspects of layout planning, have a look at the LDSIG (Layout Design Special Interest Group) layout planning primer:

http://macrodyn.com/ldsig/wiki/index.php?title=Category:primer

It has a chapter on Spaghetti bowl designs as well - advantages and disadvantages.

A couple of other good sources for track planning advice - Byron Henderson's over of the track planning process from the track planning bootcamp at the NMRA meet in Milwaukee last summer (pdf file): http://www.layoutvision.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/ld_bc.pdf

Here is a discussion of what Byron looks for when he analyzes a track plan: http://mrsvc.blogspot.com/2008/02/track-plan-analysis-indexed.html

The articles accessed though that last link will also give you a quick overview of things that by many are considered "best practices" these days.

None of this says that you cannot do a 1950s style layout, if that is what you want to do.

It is your layout, you get to decide. And you should decide - instead of letting people talk you into doing weird things like having two spurs for every industry (apparently some people have never seen the use of the just pulled cars as a handle to shove the inbound cars into the track), or adding random yo-yo factories to a scenic railroad set in the southwest.

A successful layout design is by definition one that fulfills the goals of the layout owner.

But it still, in my opinion, is smart to make an informed choice. To figure out why length of run is such an important design consideration to you, and maybe consider alternatives to achieve your primary goal (which I assume is not really length of run, but to be able to kick back and watch some cool trains run through a beautiful landscape).

LOL - might very well be that these thoughts still are not very coherent - I am not always at my best after 5 hours of sleep.

Edit: for instance, I didn't notice that I followed up on Dave's design in Ian's thread. Sorry.

Grin,
Stein
 
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["New" copies are @ ~$120ea :eek:]

:eek: indeed - which is why I suggested a used copy at $24 or reading what you could from google books.

Having the book new is not worth the difference in price - any value is in the contents, not in the condition of the cover. IMO, book collectors (as opposed to readers) might disagree :)

Smile,
Stein
 
:eek: indeed - which is why I suggested a used copy at $24 or reading what you could from google books.

Indeed - *Most* of the relevant chapter seems to be in google books.

Thanks for the comments and links (even if they're in the wrong thread ;)) - some great stuff and yet more food for thought......

While it's true there are some monster layouts in the Westcott book, I found it helpful for picking out sections rather than a complete layout - As Dave noted, many of 'em have TT's and it's getting "the most from the least" that saves (hopefully) re-inventing the wheel (who's shape I'm not even certain about!)

Having said all that, and with more reading about "modern" design practice to do I think I'm gonna take a break and do some modeling! I've got a good ol' GE44 tonner that needs a repaint from AT&SF silver and black into the V&T's green & yellow - Off to the painting forum with some Q's on this.....

Thanks again for the links - More research!
Cheers,
Ian
 
How many trackplans do we need!? I know there are those here who think I (and Dave!) need a *lot* more but I'm already overwhelmed! ;) - The main reason I took a timeout into the painting forum!

Cheers,
Ian
 
Dave,

Why are you looking for "approval from the experts". If nobody apparently likes your plans, so what, just build the dang thing already. You've been over anayllzing the entire process.

When I plan planning/designing my track plan just over a year ago. I was a complete newbie. I had already built the benchwork, basically a big table with access holes. Everyone told me it looks like a spaghetti bowl, and the problem with access holes is having to crawl under the layout.

I took everybody's opinion, but still ultimately built it, with a few changes. Here a year later, I have a great functioning layout, sure I still have to crawl under the layout to the access holes when building scenery and fixing derailments. But I've dealt with it just fine.

So again, just build what you think is best, you have already made some changes based on what others have suggested. But keep posting new plans and waiting for the experts for their golden approval is a waste of time and energy, and you cannot complain why people don't respond to you.

Take a chill pill, and just BUILD THE DANG THING ALREADY!!!!!!!!
 
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Whoa! "Steady children!"........ :)

I have no problem with "healthy dialog" (even if it is hijacking the thread!) but this is getting "religious", and as we know that and politics have no place here or in bars :)

I think I have a reasonable handle on "modern" design theory, but at the end of the day want something that:

- Fits my weird (too often revisited) floorplan
- Lets one or two people "play" with trains - Getting cars (freight & tourists), dropping 'em off, moving out of the way and so on. As I can "legitimately" run both diesel and steam I'm thinking the (now abandoned) water tanks in Silver City (?) could add operating interest as the steamer needs to stop - A good idea, for which I thank Stein btw.....
- Isn't so full of RR track that my slot cars don't fit..... As already noted (many times now) the car track is, at this stage, pretty much irrelevant to the train layout - 6" radius turns & ~20% grades are not an issue.

Cheers,
Ian
 
OK, getting back on track......

Much reading suggests that at the end of the day, "operating" RR's can never have too much staging. And I didn't have any! Apart from in Steins original of course!.....;)

So, I've bitten the bullet and can "allow" an extension at the top right - Revised "tabletop" design below......

Making sure we're all on the same page - "staging" is typically un-scenicked, and often hidden, correct? [Yards OTOH are "in" the layout?] They're where the 0-5-0 intervenes? If they're hidden below "stuff", what's the recommended gap between the two?

Given the small size of the layout I'm hoping I can get enough staging in that new area that then runs out across the top..... Dunno how to utilize it yet, but I'm thinking (and listening!)

Cheers,
Ian
 
Ian,

I've been away for awhile helping my wife recover from knee replacement surgery and then I ended up having emergency gallbladder surgery. But things are going well for both of us now, so I'm back checking the forum and I didn't see any new posts about your combined layout. How things are coming along?

While I was laid up, I had a lot of time to think. As a result, I'm considering switching to HD Scale. It will mean a lot less track and not near as much running. I'll also have to scale down the complexity, but I'm going to think about it over the summer while we're traveling.
 
Ian,

I've been away for awhile helping my wife recover from knee replacement surgery and then I ended up having emergency gallbladder surgery. But things are going well for both of us now, so I'm back checking the forum and I didn't see any new posts about your combined layout. How things are coming along?

Firstly, glad you're both doing well.

The track design project has completely stalled :(

I went off and painted/decaled a GE44 tonner in V&T colors instead (thread in detailing & weathering). Then I "discovered" Ford's pimping chrome locos and went down another rat hole - See my photo etch thread for more.....

So, that's keeping me "amused" for now while allowing me to avoid any track design work!.....

Cheers,
Ian
 
Thank you. Glad to see you're having fun. Sometimes it's good to take a break from track design/construction. If I do switch to HO, I may end up with some kind of end to end around the wall design with turntables at both ends to turn engines. I'm still leaning toward modular construction following the modular specs and I'd like the theme to incorporate our "It's A Wonderful Life" collection of buildings. I'll keep checking back to see if/when you start construction again.
 



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