8x4 to 10x7 - Now what!.....

[Trussrod]

Hi Ian,
I'm kinda of late getting in your planning but I'll offer a couple of suggestions you might find interesting? I've been at this stuff for some time now so I can offer some insite from experience.

In looking at your plan you show a Saw Mill, which can offer a lot of interesting operation and I also included in my plan. but I don't see any logging operation provision in your plan? So here are my thoughts to help you put one in.

1st. The section with loop, showing a 30" clearance between it and the wall/glass, looks as though that could be extended out another 6" or more easily which would give you 6" more space on the back of the layout and hill area. Now with the added real estate and greater length you could put another switch in the passing track by the Smelter and have that run toward the back and climbing up so it would pass by and possibly just above the back tunnel portal, onto the hill side above it which would be a natural area for logging to be taking place, to my way of thinking. You could also probably work in a run-around track there too by extending that trackage over toward the other Portal to gain more length. You might also be able to work in another spur to go toward the back corner for a bit more operation too?

By doing this it would give you more operation and open the main area a bit more for you.

From reading what you said it seems your trying to stay in the Mid 1950's era with the passenger coaches and cars but I'm uncertain if the longer passenger coaches especially will handle the sharper radiuses you will have and not look odd due to overhang? I have 20" radiuses on my mainline but I'm running all the earlier shorty coaches as I'm basically modeling from the 1880's to about 1920 so the shorties fit right in and I love the effect of them. Also all my cars are the early 36' type due to my sharper curves but they all track just fine weather pulling or pushing even up my curved 6 to 8% grades. If your at all attempting to model Colorado don't be overly concerned about grades as they had some very steep grades in some areas, especially the mines and possibly the logging areas too!

With your larger radiuses you might be able to get away with running the longer coaches but I would try one or two first to see how they handle the curves? I'd suggest staying with the shorter of those coaches and cars to avoid problems. Also, even if the couplers are body mounted it should cause no problem as long as they don't have too much overhang?

And if they due it tends to look a bit irregular anyway. Also I would think that if the cars were properly weighted and free rolling they should stay on the tracks even with a center mounted couplers.

HTH

 

[steinjr]

Further frustration! [Damnit! I'm generally pretty good with this stuff - Honest!]

I figured that the rolling stock Mr (!) Stein had very kindly put on the rails could be "operated" from within xtc - Not what I *should* be doing, but what the hell!

Just Stein - that's my first name (old Norwegian male name - means "Rock"), not my family name.

Sorry - I forgot to mention what turnouts etc I had used. The parameter files used were:

* protoam.xtp - engines and rolling stock - manipulated (add | remove | colors etc) from Manage | Car inventory

* trees.xtp - for trees

* pecoh0.xtp - Peco turnouts - I like them, they have a good selection of turnouts that work well on smaller layouts, they are easily available to me locally here in Norway.

Adding turnouts that join up - a trick I use is to extend the two lines I want to meet up before I add the second turnout.

I do a crossover like this:

First I do my straights, and then I go back to add the turnout on the straight part. Drag the first selected turnout onto the layout and down to where you want it. Look at the status bar on bottom until it says "2 connections, max distance 0"

Use Shift+click to cycle through turnout orientations - which end of the turnout goes where your mouse pointer is. Move the mouse pointer over to the other side of the track to flip the turnout. Hit [Enter] to place turnout

Now extend the line from the deviating leg of the turnout this way:
Right click on that leg, choose modify
Extend line with same curvature by dragging with left mouse button down
(If you instead hold down right mouse button and drag, you can change curvature while dragging by moving mouse).

Now you pick the second turnout, and just move that around until it says "3 connections, max distance" + some small number - preferably zero, if you have picked a brand of turnouts that match up well with the default distance between H0 scale tracks - the Peco mediums work pretty well for default 2" center to center distance for H0 scale track.

To join I do the straights first, then add the joins. If easements are too big, then it sometimes gets hard to do smaller radius curves (Options | Easements). Default is wide easements - turn it down if it makes too much trouble.

To throw turnouts, use Shift+Click.

Smile,
Stein

 

[fast_ian]

Hi Guys,

Firstly, Stein - You will *always* be "Mr Stein" to me after doing those drafts! And thx for the xtc info - Very helpful.

Hi Ian,
I'm kinda of late getting in your planning but I'll offer a couple of suggestions you might find interesting? I've been at this stuff for some time now so I can offer some insite from experience.

*Awesome*, and thank you too! While I'm a "lone wolf" modeler I'm now getting the inspiration I need from here! I'm still a long way from making any sawdust! In fact, I'm still a long way from settling on a design so any and all comments are welcome.....

In looking at your plan you show a Saw Mill, which can offer a lot of interesting operation and I also included in my plan. but I don't see any logging operation provision in your plan? So here are my thoughts to help you put one in.
......
By doing this it would give you more operation and open the main area a bit more for you.

Indeed. However, please read on....

From reading what you said it seems your trying to stay in the Mid 1950's era....

Actually, and maybe remarkably (!) it's set in the near future! While I'm not a "rivet counter", the prototype is the "Virginia & Truckee Shortline" from Carson City to Virginia City, NV. I've been participating in an automotive hillclimb event there for about a dozen or so years and have watched *new* track being laid, tunnels restored and an overpass being built and installed. They're now (during the season at least) running "tourist trains" from V.C. down to C.C. using both a GE 44 tonner and at least one Baldwin 4-4-0 steamer. [A quick Google will turn up *lots* of modern day pix etc, but I've attached a couple below - Note the nice friendly short cars!]

My model then assumes that the price of gold & silver skyrockets and the mines make a comeback - There are still a few hardy prospectors eking out a living, but my imagination puts the rails back into real usage to do what they did back in the boom days when it was called "The Richest Railroad in the World!"

The "problem" I've given myself (!) is I still want (maybe misguidedly?) to also put in a slot car track - As noted earlier, I have a pretty cool grade crossing with arms & lights etc. However, this obviously raises all kinds of problems (!) and I'm currently modeling (in the computer) some car-track layouts - Much easier as they'll turn (if reqd) in 6" radius. OTOH, they have to be visible to the driver pretty much all the time.

I'm working on it.... I do *really* appreciate everyones input - Please, keep it coming!

Cheers,
Ian

 

[Trussrod]

Hi Ian,
That's interesting to know the V&T is restoring that line, I have a couple of V&T cars on my layout, or what will be my layout if I get busy as I should.

I'm modeling the the turn of the Century basically 1880's to about the 1920's, so much of the equipment that your thinking of running and what I'm running will coincide somewhat closely sans the more modern Deisel. I do have three Old time Box Cab Deisels from Model Die Casting one is a dummy but they are all track cleaners so they serve a dual purpose. You be able to easily run 2-8-0 Consolidations on tighter radiuses as the two center drivers are blind, no wheel flanges and handle the tighter 20" radiuses on my layout just fine. I also have several 4-4-0's too with one left to build.

Something you'll want to definitely adhere to is not using any rail larger than code 83 so the smaller equipment look correct when rolling along and possibly even consider using code 70 as I'm doing which even looks better yet. You can see by the picture of the 4-4-0 how light the rail is.

I'm pretty sure that was a standard gauge line, especially from the photos you included, but with some fairly sharp curves hence the smaller loco's and shorter equipment. So if you go with the plan that Mr. Stein drew up for you you will be constreigned with the same thing which is ok as it's a lot more realistic. You might be able to work in a turn table or two at either end but even if you can't with a runaround track you will just be running backwards on the return trip and that isn't all that bad.

As far as your SCTrack I'd say it will look really out of place on a railroad that dates that far back but your choice?

That area is North and East of where I'm at by about 250 miles. Are you anywhere near there yourself?

TWYL.

 

[fast_ian]

Hi Ian,
That's interesting to know the V&T is restoring that line, I have a couple of V&T cars on my layout, or what will be my layout if I get busy as I should.

It seems it's almost as much fun critiquing others as doing what you *should* be doing.....

I'm modeling the the turn of the Century basically 1880's to about the 1920's, so much of the equipment that your thinking of running and what I'm running will coincide somewhat closely sans the more modern Deisel.

A lot of the equipment appears to *come* from that era, even today!

Are you specifically doing the V&T? As I noted, if you run it as "today" you can legitimately run both the 44tonner and a Baldwin or two.....

Something you'll want to definitely adhere to is not using any rail larger than code 83

+1 All code 83. I've got a mixture of Peco & Walthers/Shinohara track. I'm not sure I want to push it to code 70 though. [Incidentally, IIRC they purchased some used rails for at least part of the new trackage and it's *really* heavy stuff - Ex someone's mainline I believe.]

I'm pretty sure that was a standard gauge line, especially from the photos you included, but with some fairly sharp curves hence the smaller loco's and shorter equipment. So if you go with the plan that Mr. Stein drew up for you you will be constreigned with the same thing which is ok as it's a lot more realistic. You might be able to work in a turn table or two at either end but even if you can't with a runaround track you will just be running backwards on the return trip and that isn't all that bad.

*Mr* Stein [Sorry Stein! ]. But yep, no need (or desire) to run anything but "shorties" on here - I think I'm going to allow 20" radius as the minimum. I'm still thinking about a wye or a turntable - There used to be one in Carson I believe.

As far as your SCTrack I'd say it will look really out of place on a railroad that dates that far back but your choice?

You missed it! - I'm setting it very slightly in the future - Mining has made a comeback so in addition to the tourists we're moving mining "stuff" as well - Dunno if it will run to Carson or stop at the resurrected stamp mills/smelters (?) on the river - Or both.....

That area is North and East of where I'm at by about 250 miles. Are you anywhere near there yourself?

I'm in San Jose, so it sounds like we're pretty close - I guess I'll fill out my profile soon.....

Returning to the slot track, I've attached the layout we were running at one time on the 8x4 - Not much opportunity for scenery, but it ran very well, in both directions, using a wide variety of car types - The "slow" (sliding) cars were a real challenge thru' to crazy "radioactive magnet" cars that were *fast* - By reducing power even "kids" could turn reasonable laps with these. I know I'm not going to use as much track, but reckon I can still get something "nice" - As I said, "I'm working on it...."

BTW, the "back straight" was about 10-12" higher than the middle - There's flexibility in laying the road that RR'ers *dream* about! [It's also the reason it seems a little big to fit on the 8x4, but it did.....]

Thanks again for the comments,
Cheers,
Ian

 

[fast_ian]

..."I'm working on it...."

And I think the car track could be made into a natural and believable view block.... Unfortunately, I haven't found:

- A layout program that does both cars and trains - I thought there was one, but can't find it - Anyone?
- How to "3D" the attached. [Around the outside is "high" and the inside is low is about the best I can say - The crossing is on the right of the "V" in the middle.]

But, I think something like this could just work.......

Cheers,
Ian

 

[fast_ian]

It seems it's almost as much fun critiquing others as doing what you *should* be doing.....

I hope I didn't offend anyone with the above comment - I should have said "what we should be doing......." I apologize if taken the wrong way.

Anyway, I'm messing with the SC track - It really needs a xover (bridge or short tunnel) to somewhat equalize the lane lengths - We don't want one lane to be significantly faster/longer than the other! I'm also making more use of the central area and freeing up space around the industries - I think we can "hide" the depot with the car track behind & higher.....

Cheers,
Ian

 

[fast_ian]

*Much* head scratching and mouse-drags later, here's where I'm at:

Notes:

- The yellow RR lines all go under the road (!)
- Elevations (of the road) remain flexible....
- The trains can run "around the edge" pretty well I think. The outer "C" Could go thru 2 or 3 tunnels, and be exposed in the corner...
- The central area (I called it a mine) could be logging...

What I haven't done is worked the damn crossing in anywhere!

Cheers,
Ian

 

[fast_ian]

*Much* head scratching and mouse-drags later, here's where I'm at:

A little (frustrating!) progress;

- I *thought* (foolishly it seems!) that I could "improve" on the outline that Lord Stein () did a while back - I spent a long time moving 22"R circles around in xtrk, and the following is about the best I could do - Alarmingly similar to the original......
- I had to get away from such huge curves and went to 1:1 modeling with the slot car track - Sure glad I did - I'll post some pix shortly, but suffice to say for now, I'm almost back at square one!.... I really thought going from 8x4 to this was gonna be a no brainer.....

Cheers,
Ian

 

[fast_ian]

A think I may just have it! Please see the attached......

Lessons learnt by "playing" with the slot cars on the floor (outside of a stiff back!)

- The extra foot I thought I could "steal" at the lower left doesn't work.
- Two sections of car track plus two RR lines "fit" (just) in 12" - Very nice!
- I've got enough flexibility in the car layout that I can simply work it around whatever the RR comes out as - Very nice!
- The top right (shown as hidden staging plus a "mine" below in Steins draft) will work well - But, there's enough space to do a little "industry" up there as well (Virginia City passenger & goods station maybe?
- From there, it runs to the bottom left and the radius is big enough to put a passing siding on the inside - Dunno what else to do there.....
- The big loop is just over 20", so nothing inside that.
- The xover will work on one or the other of the legs just above the track crossing - Dunno which is gonna be over which yet though.

My frustration has somewhat passed today - I reckon this might just work - Any comments much appreciated.....

Cheers,
Ian

 

[fast_ian]

Hi,

While thinking about how/where to add sidings etc I pulled out an old copy of "Atlas HO layouts for every space" [FWIW, their layouts HO-13 thru 23] There's what appears to be a pretty cool section at the back detailing how to roll your own - Makes extensive use of their 18" radius + 18" 1/2 + 18" 1/3 track sections - In the book that's part #'s 152/512, 834/533 and 835/534 respectively [The first is code 100, the second code 83.]

There's also a number of wye's with the smallest being ~24" x 27".... This got me thinking I could get one in "somewhere" and thereby substantially increase "operating interest" (hopefully?)

I also "rethought" the minimum radius requirement - A lot of the Atlas layouts use 18" and #4's - In fairness, my original 8x4 layout was also using 18", and all my stuff ran just fine on it - So, 18" it is!.... I'm going to try and stick with #6's and/or Walthers curved TO's, but we'll see.....

So, I fired up xtc and figured I'd build one or two of the wyes using Atlas sectional - Oh dear! Frustration such that I figured I'd download the Atlas RTS S/W and use that instead - At least I should be able to do the wyes! [This involves rebooting the computer from Linux to XP, which is also a royal PITA!]

Anyway, the part #'s (and even descriptions) in the S/W don't agree with the part #'s in the book!.... Nothing "lined up"! No big deal, I'll just lay out a few 18" radius curves and all will become clear!

If it takes 6 18" curves to do 180 degrees, I would have thought it would take 12 1/2 sections and/or 18 1/3 sections - But no! - See attachment.

So, I'm now really pissed off and am going to play with the slot cars instead!

Sorry for the rant, but WTF?

Cheers,
Ian
PS - Grr! - RTS saved my attachment as 2.5MB bmp! - *Way* too big to upload, and because I'm in XP I don't know how to resize it! "Coming soon"....

 

[fast_ian]

PS - Grr! - RTS saved my attachment as 2.5MB bmp! - *Way* too big to upload, and because I'm in XP I don't know how to resize it! "Coming soon"....

OK - Paint took care of that.

As can be seen, it takes;
6 x full 18"'s or
8 x whatever that is (not 1/2!) or
16 x whatever that is (not 1/3!)

to make a 180deg turn.

Cheers,
Ian

 

[LoudMusic]

OK - Paint took care of that.

As can be seen, it takes;
6 x full 18"'s or
8 x whatever that is (not 1/2!) or
16 x whatever that is (not 1/3!)

to make a 180deg turn.

Cheers,
Ian

Well, maths would tell us that

180d / 6 = 30d
180d / 8 = 22.5d
180d / 16 = 11.25d

But I see what you're saying about the software's limitations. I don't even get the 30d piece in my selection list. In all honesty, if you REALLY want to design a train layout in software before building anything I strongly suggest spending time with XTRKCad (or whatever it's called these days). Once you get the hang of it it's really powerful, and very accurate.
________
MOTORCYCLE TIRES

 

[fast_ian]

...In all honesty, if you REALLY want to design a train layout in software before building anything I strongly suggest spending time with XTRKCad (or whatever it's called these days). Once you get the hang of it it's really powerful, and very accurate.

No doubt - I've been trying! [I even did the above drafts using it - I thought I was becoming a baby Stein!]

But, I tried to input track sections (from the xtc Atlas library), and it completely refused to "join" the way I wanted it to - I could not build the wye's shown in the book! - I "rotated", I "flipped", I "moved" and "zoomed", I lined up the sections etc, but as far as I can see, there is no way to get it doing what I want - Dunno why

So I tried RTS, and that's even worse!......

Cheers,
Ian

 

[steinjr]

No doubt - I've been trying! [I even did the above drafts using it - I thought I was becoming a baby Stein!]

But, I tried to input track sections (from the xtc Atlas library), and it completely refused to "join" the way I wanted it to - I could not build the wye's shown in the book! - I "rotated", I "flipped", I "moved" and "zoomed", I lined up the sections etc, but as far as I can see, there is no way to get it doing what I want - Dunno why

Could be that the XtrkCad track library doesn't contain the right turnouts.

A quick google round found me a post saying that a wye will line up and join perfectly with Atlas Code 83 custom line switches: one wye, three pieces of 24" radius curves on each side, a customline #4 turnout on each end, and three 9" pieces of straight between the turnouts. The writer also noted that it did not work with #6 CL turnouts - which is not surprising - different turnouts have different geometries.

Smile,
Stein

 

[fast_ian]

Could be that the XtrkCad track library doesn't contain the right turnouts.

That's certainly possible, but my problems were much more "fundamental" than a little mis-alignment

The book shows a wye made up of 3 wye turnouts (I believe they only make one version?) with a 1x18" "full" and 1x18" 1/3 (sic - see above!) in each leg - My (main!) problem was while the first section "snapped" onto the turnout when placed the second section *always* turned the wrong way - When I try and re-orient it it *refuses* to connect! One way round, no problem, the "right way" round it simply fails miserably - Hence the frustration.......

I'll go back to XtrackCad again now I've calmed down (!) and try and post a few screen grabs to illustrate what I mean [It'll probably work now of course and I'll look a fool, but there's nothing new there ]

Cheers,
Ian

 

[Cjcrescent]

That's certainly possible, but my problems were much more "fundamental" than a little mis-alignment

...
I'll go back to XtrackCad again now I've calmed down (!) and try and post a few screen grabs to illustrate what I mean [It'll probably work now of course and I'll look a fool, but there's nothing new there ]

Cheers,
Ian

Ian;

If you haven't tried them yet, I strongly suggest that you do the tutorials for XtrackCAD at;

http://www.xtrkcad.org/Wikka/HomePage

I would also follow the demos listed under help within the program itself. When I was learning how to use the program, the "light came on" after following the demos and I haven't had a problem with the program since.

 

[steinjr]

That's certainly possible, but my problems were much more "fundamental" than a little mis-alignment

The book shows a wye made up of 3 wye turnouts (I believe they only make one version?) with a 1x18" "full" and 1x18" 1/3 (sic - see above!) in each leg - My (main!) problem was while the first section "snapped" onto the turnout when placed the second section *always* turned the wrong way - When I try and re-orient it it *refuses* to connect!

Select Wye, click where you want it.
Select Curve, click near end of wye, if orientation is OK, press ENTER
If orientation is opposite of what you want, SHIFT+Click, then ENTER
Click towards end of curve to place next section, press ENTER
Click towards end of curve to place next section, press ENTER
Click at other end of wye, SHIFT+Click to change orientation, ENTER
etc

Placing sectional track can be a little confusing in XtrkCad.

Also works when placing regular turnouts on the layout - Shift+Click will cycle which of the three ends of the turnout is the attachment point.

Smile,
Stein

 

[fast_ian]

Thanks for the continued encouragement guys - It really is appreciated! [CJ - I agree, it's probably time for me to *redo* the tutorials! I'm (really, honestly!) generally pretty good with SW, but I *swear* it wasn't behaving the same way yesterday - Maybe I should have restarted everything earlier? Does it ever go "weird" on you guys?]

Anyway, naturally, today, Steins instructions worked *beautifully* (thx!) I have no idea what I (or the SW?) was doing wrong yesterday, but today all is (almost!) well with the world......

But it appears that either the book or the xtc libraries are wrong..... Which kind of agrees with what LoudMusic noted earlier:

- XTC has 18" curves for 30 Degrees (good), 15 & 10 deg - From the atlas SW these latter two should be 22.5 & 11.25 respectively
- The net result is that when I try the 1/3 pieces I get the result on the left, and with the next bigger piece the result on the right

However - now that xtc (and/or me ) is behaving as it should I reckon I can get 'er done with flextrack - I'll post any results, although I'm already concerned at the amount of real estate it's going to use.....

Cheers,
Ian

 

[steinjr]

Well, XtrkCad has a couple of different Atlas libraries for H0 scale:

Atl code 83
Atl code 100
Atlas true track

Curved sections of different radii also have different lengths (arc degrees)

In the code 83 and code 100 library, 18" radius curves comes in 30 degree sections, 15 degree sections and 10 degree sections - needing respectively 6, 12 or 18 pieces to make a half circle, while 22" radius curves comes in 22.5 degree sections (needing 8 sections to make a half circle).

In the true track library, 18" radius curves comes in 30D and 15D lengths, 22" radius curves comes in 22.5D and 7.5D, and 24" radius curves comes in 22.5D.

No guarantee that I have all possible Atlas sectional track types in the libraries in my version of XtrkCad - I try to avoid sectional track when drawing track plans

You might want to check over in the XtrkCad yahoo group to see if anyone has Atlas code 83 customline #6 turnouts - if you want to make a wye using customline components - I have no clue about what Atlas track they used in the track plans you have.

To check part numbers for the Atlas track in XtrkCad - place the one you are wondering about on the layout, and right click + choose properties - will tell you the Atlas part no.

Smile,
Stein