Unusual trend in sales.

[tooter]

I agree Greg, the two lines which we normally have in good stock, or can get quickly are the two Canadian lines we carry.
Juneco Scale Models and Osborn Models are both Canadian.

We also have plenty of RSLaser Kits product in stock as we are (I believe) the only dealer in the area that imports them.

Locality gives you a decided edge especially whenever you can provide what others don't carry. There might even be small local modelling tradespersons in your area who fabricate specialized products and who could benefit from the customer exposure of your storefront as you would benefit from a wider product line.

Business is just an ethical system of synergistic relationships.

 

[Espeefan]

Thanks, wojo...
I doubt I could have answered better than you just did.

These two irreconcileable views that were just expressed sum up the divide in this country:

1. You are responsible for how your life turns out.

2. External circumstances are to blame for how your life turns out.

It's really interesting to see how almost without fail these discussions always end up about the poor. It isn't about the poor fellas. Those who want you to think so are frantically waving their left hand in your face hoping you won't see what their right hand is doing.

Granted we are all responsible for how our lives turn out, but anyone who thinks external circumstances don't have an effect has their head in the sand, or is lucky enough to have never been knocked down hard and has no experience in having to fight their way out of it. I know more people than I'd wish who are willing, some desperate, to work. There is opportunity, but the ratio of opportunities to people looking for them is pretty lopsided right now. We can't all be small business owners, and everyone is not cut out to be an entrepeneur. The real solution lies in the middle ground, and nobody seems to want to go there these days.

 

[tooter]

Granted we are all responsible for how our lives turn out,

Hi Espee,

Yes.

but anyone who thinks external circumstances don't have an effect has their head in the sand, or is lucky enough to have never been knocked down hard and has no experience in having to fight their way out of it.

I totally agree with you, and don't believe that anyone had even attempted to make that highly implausable argument. For it is how each person responds to what happens to them which defines them either as a:

1. person who takes responsibility for how their own life turned out,
or a
2. person who blames others for how their own life turned out.

I know more people than I'd wish who are willing, some desperate, to work. There is opportunity, but the ratio of opportunities to people looking for them is pretty lopsided right now.

There are two completely different approaches to your description, and each approach corresponds to each type of person:

One person creates their own opportunity,

while another person looks to be given an opportunity.

Now which of these two approaches is more likely to succeed, and which is more likely to fail?

We can't all be small business owners, and everyone is not cut out to be an entrepeneur.

This is not true.
Everyone is a small business owner...

...and that small business is themselves.

You are a small business owner. You develop your talents and skills, and then you market your skills and talents to others while competing with other small business owners who are doing the same.

I'd like to respond to something which you said earlier, and demonstrate how there are two approaches:

...the numbers show that the middle class is in decline. Executive pay grows ever larger while salaries stay the same.

This is the fallacy that wealth is finite... that if one person earns more money they are to blame for causing another to earn less.

The tax cuts given by the previous administration cost somewhere around 1.4 trillion dollars. The benefits reaped by the middle class were pretty sparse.

This is the fallacy that benefits can only be given by others, and not created.

(I think my tax bill dropped by something like $800 per year. Not much in the grand scheme of things) That might have still been fine if they had not then spent us into the ground.

This also is not true...
Only you can spend yourself into the ground. No one else can do that to you except yourself, for no one else exerts more control over your own personal finances than you do, just as no one else is more responsible than you are for your own personal finances.

So these are the two choices placed before every one of us, and each person harvests the just and deserved consequences of their own free choice to either take responsibility for how your own life turned out, or blame others for how your own life turned out.

Greg

 

[shivam]

hey will,
hi,
m totally agree with you.................
you are making sense to the busuness............

 

[Espeefan]

Greg, Greg, Greg,

How do you write so well and yet miss my point so completely?

You're still talking about people who seem to think they deserve to have things handed to them. That's never been what I'm talking about.

Hi Espee,

One person creates their own opportunity,

while another person looks to be given an opportunity.

Greg

So how do the millions of workers who've lost their jobs create their own opportunities when nobody is hiring? We're not talking about the poor now, but middle class folks who find themselves out of work through no fault of their own. It isn't that they don't want to work, quite the contrary, they do, but there is little to no opportunity for them to, and what there is is often at far lower compensation that they had before. If I follow your line of thinking...this is all their own fault for not being adaptable enough Sorry, but I don't see it.

This is not true.
Everyone is a small business owner...

...and that small business is themselves.

You are a small business owner. You develop your talents and skills, and then you market your skills and talents to others while competing with other small business owners who are doing the same.Greg

This sounds like something a motivational speaker might say. Feels good, but what if there are no customers for your "small business", no work for it to do? oops! BTW, you banker won't wait!

This is the fallacy that wealth is finite... that if one person earns more money they are to blame for causing another to earn less.Greg

OK, let's go back to the 70's and look at the average salary of a CEO. Now look at the salaries of the folks who worked for him. Now look today. The ratio has skyrocketed. Not a fallacy...just math.

This is the fallacy that benefits can only be given by others, and not created.

Greg

Well, let's follow the money. Granted it takes a bunch of work to dig out the numbers on all of this, but if you look where the money went, it went mostly to the upper 5% of the population (capital gains and so forth), and to large corporations. The middle and lower classes got very little. The whole thing was a very bad idea, mostly because of what followed.

This also is not true...
Only you can spend yourself into the ground. No one else can do that to you except yourself, for no one else exerts more control over your own personal finances than you do, just as no one else is more responsible than you are for your own personal finances.Greg

Well, I do know how much my tax bill went down...math again , and I was referring to the defecit spending the government proceeded to undertake, not personal finances. The revenue lost by those tax cuts was replaced with borrowed money (mostly Chinese, as everyone knows). Everyone who balances their own check book at the end of the month understands you can't spend more than you make (for very long anyway). Our politicians and more than a few of our large corporations seem to think that this does not apply to them.

In summation:

No, people are certainly not owed anything...we're on our own and responsible for how our lives turn out. We agree there.

OTOH this is a push-pull thing...everyone has to bring something to the table. All of the responsibilities can't be laid on the people. If you think that...sorry dude, that dog won't hunt

Government and business have to work together for a successful economy. The government can't regulate too much, and business has to have some common sense, and not let greed rule the roost. Let either one have too much power, and you get trouble.

If you look at the events leading up to the meltdown, I think it's fair to say that the banking and coprorate worlds have amply demonstrated that they need some rules to live by and some limits set. If you don't believe that, you might want to talk with anyone who invested money in Bear Stearns, Enron, credit default swaps or with Bernie Madoff. Lucky for me, I didn't

If the players don't get a handle on this soon, disposable income is going to shrink uncomfortably for those of us who make a few or spend a few bucks on the hobby.

Now we should probably put away our soap boxes and get back to trains!

 

[julienjj]

Ahhh Madoff, he got 100 years of prison, and because the carceral system is overcrowded everywhere in N. America, he will be released at the half of his sentence

 

[Janry]

Since Bernie is already 72, I don't think we have to worry too much about him only serving 1/2 of a 100 year sentence, though I think it was actually 150 years.

 

[julienjj]

Since Bernie is already 72, I don't think we have to worry too much about him only serving 1/2 of a 100 year sentence, though I think it was actually 150 years.

Well, that's the joke

 

[tooter]

So how do the millions of workers who've lost their jobs create their own opportunities when nobody is hiring?

Well, there are two approaches to the situation you describe, Espee...

...and they each correspond to two distinctly different types of people.

One type blames others because they won't give them a job...
while the other type takes the responsibility to create their own job.

In 1979 when everything was in the crapper like it is now I was laid off like millions of others, and the process of standing in line to beg for someone else to give me a job was so humiliating I started my own business and never went back to the lines again. It was by taking responsibility for my own situation 30 years ago that I live free of financial stress today.

We're not talking about the poor now, but middle class folks who find themselves out of work through no fault of their own.

"No fault of their own" is the view of blaming others. In the view of taking responsibility everyone is responsible for the consequences of their own free choice of who they work for and what kind of work they do.

If a person's skills are not marketable, then they need to learn from the experience and choose more wisely to acquire others that are.

There is no person who has succeeded who has not first failed and learned from their failure.

It isn't that they don't want to work, quite the contrary, they do, but there is little to no opportunity for them to, and what there is is often at far lower compensation that they had before.

There is always opportunity when a person is enterprising and willing to think outside of the box to create their own job, instead of begging hat in hand for someone else to give them a job.

If I follow your line of thinking...this is all their own fault for not being adaptable enough Sorry, but I don't see it.

(shrug)Then you'll suffer the consequences until you do see it... and can successfully adapt to be able to prosper regardless of the economic conditions around you.

what if there are no customers for your "small business", no work for it to do?

You can either blame others because they won't be your customers... or realize that it's your own responsibiliby to adapt your small business to meet the needs of customers.

oops! BTW, you banker won't wait!

My banker will... because I don't own him one red cent.
A genuine American Capitalist producer is solvent, and so isn't a slave to credit cards, car loans, equity lines of credit, and mortages.

OK, let's go back to the 70's and look at the average salary of a CEO. Now look at the salaries of the folks who worked for him. Now look today. The ratio has skyrocketed. Not a fallacy...just math.

Well, there are two approaches to your math...
You can either blame rich CEO's for taking money to which you feel entitled but didn't work to rightfully earn...

...or you can realize that your salary is the just and deserved consequence of the agreement into which you freely chose to enter with your employer. It is every employee's personal moral responsibility to work only for decent fair and honest employers... and if they are not, the employee is at fault for helping to further their employer's dishonesty.

Well, let's follow the money. Granted it takes a bunch of work to dig out the numbers on all of this, but if you look where the money went, it went mostly to the upper 5% of the population (capital gains and so forth), and to large corporations. The middle and lower classes got very little. The whole thing was a very bad idea, mostly because of what followed.

I'll grant you the veracity of your description. And there are exactly the same two approaches to what you just described. You can either blame the big corporations... or take responsibility for your own financial situation.

I was referring to the defecit spending the government proceeded to undertake, not personal finances.

Then simply leave it to the government to suffer the deserved consequences of its own financial failure... and take the simple prudent actions necessary to protect yourself from whatever might happen to collapse around you.

My personal finances have nothing to do with the government's fiscal irresponsibility, for they depend far more on my own ability to produce... than on the government's inability to produce.

All of the responsibilities can't be laid on the people. If you think that...sorry dude, that dog won't hunt

Then you're perfectly free to blame others for your situation,
just as I'm free to take responsibility for mine.

If the players don't get a handle on this soon, disposable income is going to shrink uncomfortably for those of us who make a few or spend a few bucks on the hobby.

So in your view you are not responsibile for your own disposible income and it depends on what the "players" do... while in my view, everyone is personally responsible for their own disposible income.

Now we should probably put away our soap boxes and get back to trains!

Agreed.

 

[Espeefan]

Greg...I'm talking apples...you're hearing oranges.

Fisrt, my situation is fine.
Second, I don't blame anyone for anything.

I do see disturbing trends in the country today that aren't all the fault of plain ordinary folks. The blame for the current financial mess is shared by everyone who lived beyond their means, every business that over extended itself or bent or broke the rules, and every politician who facilitated the circumstances that made it possible. It is therefore up to all parties to fix it. All have a part to play. That's what I'm saying here.

Third, most Most American producers have mortgages, car loans, credit cards and the like. Far more do than don't. These things should not be misused, but they are a part of most peoples lives. If you can pay cash for everything you need all the time, congrats, but you are in a very small minority.

You're entitled to your opinions, but I think if you look around, you'll see that they don't seem to be translating very well to reality. The desire or even the ability to succeed is not enough in itself to guarantee success.

 

[UP2CSX]

Interesting discussion. I'm glad the mods have let this run, because this is probably one of the few forums on the net where we can discuss some very hot button topics and not have it deteriorate into ad hominen attacks. Congratulations to all involved for that.

I was laid off for almost a year during the last big downturn of 1979. I took a job with a temp agency doing project management work for a large utility. They weren't hiring regular employees, but they were using temps to fill in until they decided the economy was stable enough to expand hiring again. The money was way less than what I had been making, but we had no debt besides our mortgage, so we could squeak by. Within a year, the economy started to turn around. I could see other opportunities besides this one company. When they wanted to hire me, I made a deal that I would work as a consultant rather than an employee. This let them use me only when they needed me, and gave me time to expand my contacts to start to grow my business. It was a risky strategy, since I was turning down a good job with good salary and benefits, but I felt there were other companies out there that need my skill set, just not full-time. I managed to get consulting contracts with seven other companies and ended up hiring two employees.

I made an excellent living for the next 24 years, when I sold my company and retired. During that time, I invested every spare dime in the Market - stocks, bonds, and mutual funds. While skill and determination played the major role in my success, timing was also in my favor. From 1981 until 2000, you had to work hard to lose money in the Market. So, I can't attribute my success investing to my amazing stock picking skills as much as being in the right place at the right time. OTOH, if I had spent my money on things I didn't need and lived in debt, the Market conditions wouldn't have mattered. I do feel badly for my 20 year old daughter, who's not only trying to invest in a Market which is essentially psychotic right now, but is also going to be stuck with paying back the debt that my generation has run up so we could live in a style we should never have become accustomed to.

I now live off my investments...and my fabulous Social Security check. While I have a comfortable cushion, I'm far from a millionaire. If the Bush tax cuts aren't extended, I will sell all the profit I have in any holding before the end of the year, since not doing so means I will pay double the taxes that I would if I waited until January 1. I will also re-balance my portfolio away from dividend paying stock and shift into growth stocks, since I will pay the same ordinary income tax on capital gains as I will on dividends. This will punish companies who are well run and have the money to pay dividends, but also reward companies who plow every dollar back into the business to make it grow in value. The short term effect on the Market will be devastating. The Bush tax cuts do not just help the rich, they help people like me, who have investments that are the major source of their income. It will equalize in the end, but I think it's bad idea to increase taxes just when the country is trying to pull itself out of the worst downturn since the 30's. When the unemployment rate is back down to 4%, that's the time to increase taxes and start paying down our debt.

I will posit one last thought about our current condition. I think the US is lagging other world economies because it's not November yet. We are going to stay range-bound, both in the Markets and unemployment, until the business community knows the outcome of the November elections. I'm a Libertarian, so I have no love for either party, but businesses are looking for the Republicans to regain control of at least one of the houses of Congress. This will restore some sense of the checks and balances built into our system. If the Democrats keep control of both houses, we will look back on 2010 as being a good year for the economy.

 

[tooter]

Fisrt, my situation is fine.
Second, I don't blame anyone for anything.

That's strange, Espee...

"Trickle down is a pipe dream. Nothing ever trickled down on me unless there was a flock of birds overhead."

"If the players don't get a handle on this soon, disposable income is going to shrink uncomfortably for those of us who make a few or spend a few bucks on the hobby."

"The tax cuts given by the previous administration cost somewhere around 1.4 trillion dollars. The benefits reaped by the middle class were pretty sparse."

"OK, let's go back to the 70's and look at the average salary of a CEO. Now look at the salaries of the folks who worked for him. Now look today. The ratio has skyrocketed."

"if you look where the money went, it went mostly to the upper 5% of the population (capital gains and so forth), and to large corporations."

...for you've offered quite a long list of complaints against others of how they've adversely affected your financial wellbeing by siphoning off wealth for themselves which you feel should have gone to you.

I do see disturbing trends in the country today that aren't all the fault of plain ordinary folks.

The ones who truly aren't at fault because they took responsibility for their own finances aren't subject to those "disturbing trends".

The blame for the current financial mess is shared by everyone who lived beyond their means, every business that over extended itself or bent or broke the rules, and every politician who facilitated the circumstances that made it possible.

It certainly is... and they're all gettting exactly what they deserve as the consequences they set into motion by their foolish actions.

Greed just isn't big corporate business and the "rich"... it's any fool who greedily seeks to possess that which they did not work to earn the right to own.

It is therefore up to all parties to fix it. All have a part to play. That's what I'm saying here.

It's certainly all the deadbeat debtors who caused it who are experiencing the economic pain they desrve from their own irresponsibile greed.

Third, most Most American producers have mortgages, car loans, credit cards and the like. Far more do than don't. These things should not be misused, but they are a part of most peoples lives.

To the exact extent they enslaved themselves through debt, have they all been affected by the economic downturn.

If you can pay cash for everything you need all the time, congrats, but you are in a very small minority.

I know.

There are almost no solvent American Capitalist producers left in this country.

It's why I have always consistently prospered regardless of any economic cycles, and regardless of who happens to hold political power.

There can be no freedom without first securing your own economic freedom.

I belong to a time long gone when Americans paid in full for what they owned because they would be ashamed to possess that which they did not first work to earn the right to own.

You're entitled to your opinions, but I think if you look around, you'll see that they don't seem to be translating very well to reality.

Everything I've said here is the description of the reality of the moral principles of American Capitalisn... and how they have become literally translated into my own life.

Everyone else is responsible for the reality they have created by their own actions.

The desire or even the ability to succeed is not enough in itself to guarantee success.

Hey... we actually agree on that!

...and everyone who blames others for the consequences of their own failure to be productive because they are afraid to assume the responsibility of their own risks...

...will never succeed.

Greg

 

[Secondhandmodeler]

Greg, after reading this thread I'm dying to know what kind of business you are in.

 

[julienjj]

I think the US needs a center government; on one side you have the republican who think that economy must run all by itself, and on the other side you have the democrat who want to make rule for everything. We can now take a step backward and see that none of these attitude where good. The major downside with the republican (on a canadian perception) is that they just do not understand europeans position on almost all subject, and that the lumber crysis aint going to be resolved.... and that there would already a war with the iran about the nuke things...

My .05$(Canadian of course )

 

[tooter]

Greg, after reading this thread I'm dying to know what kind of business you are in.

I be a sparky.

 

[Espeefan]

That's strange, Espee...



...for you've offered quite a long list of complaints against others of how they've adversely affected your financial wellbeing by siphoning off wealth for themselves which you feel should have gone to you.

Now Greg, there you go putting words in my mouth...again . I don't think you'll find anywhere in this thread where I've said I should be entitled to anything.

The ones who truly aren't at fault because they took responsibility for their own finances aren't subject to those "disturbing trends".

Really? Well several successful businesses up here went belly up because their banks cut off their line of credit. The bank just bailed on them, as a result of poor decisions that they (the bank) had made. Tell me what these business owners did wrong, and how it was their fault, and if you say it's because they needed a line of credit to operate, then you are saying that the vast majority of business done around the world is being done incorrectly.

It certainly is... and they're all gettting exactly what they deserve as the consequences they set into motion by their foolish actions.

Greed just isn't big corporate business and the "rich"... it's any fool who greedily seeks to possess that which they did not work to earn the right to own.


It's certainly all the deadbeat debtors who caused it who are experiencing the economic pain they desrve from their own irresponsibile greed.



To the exact extent they enslaved themselves through debt, have they all been affected by the economic downturn.



I know.

There are almost no solvent American Capitalist producers left in this country.

It's why I have always consistently prospered regardless of any economic cycles, and regardless of who happens to hold political power.

There can be no freedom without first securing your own economic freedom.

I belong to a time long gone when Americans paid in full for what they owned because they would be ashamed to possess that which they did not first work to earn the right to own.



Everything I've said here is the description of the reality of the moral principles of American Capitalisn... and how they have become literally translated into my own life.

And this is the root of our differences. You're looking in the mirror and describing yourself, and how all this has or has not effected you. I'm looking at how it has effected everyone else, and what is broken in our capitalist system and needs fixed. Your theories aren't bad, but they assume that the underlying system is sound, and right now, it isn't. The reasons are many, and it'll take a while before things return to something near normal. A good strong economy requires an educated capable workforce, healthy businesses, and the proper amount of regulation, not too much, not too little.

Remember the fire triangle? Take away any side, and the fire goes out.

We've been out of balance too long, either too far one way or another. The ups & downs are getting more & more extreme. I find this worrisome.

I haven't been negatively effected as yet, other than the hit my 401K took, and I don't have an ax to grind with "the rich" as you seem to think. I think they should pay their fair share, like everyone else, nothing more, nothing less. I also don't favor giving people handouts, though I don't mind giving them hand ups.

These are simply my observations on what's up with our economy. Yes, I do feel for those who got caught up in a bad situation through no fault of their own.

What I seem to be hearing you say is "I got mine, the rest can go hang" Well if that's how you feel...ok...I guess.

 

[Wojo]

I think the US needs a center government; on one side you have the republican who think that economy must run all by itself, and on the other side you have the democrat who want to make rule for everything. We can now take a step backward and see that none of these attitude where good. The major downside with the republican (on a canadian perception) is that they just do not understand europeans position on almost all subject, and that the lumber crysis aint going to be resolved.... and that there would already a war with the iran about the nuke things...

My .05$(Canadian of course )

Interesting. but a "centrist" government by nature would be ineffective, as it would not want to offend anyone. We have too much "Political Correctness" as it is.

Europe, especially non English speaking Europe, is quite backward and really does not merit a position on any issue. Europeans are by nature pessimistic and resent individualism. They are also quite mired in the quicksand of Socialist Democracy. Europe is largely insolvent. Quite honestly, I do not believe they have anything constructive to offer. They are certainly not helpful in confronting the dangers and challenges forthcoming from the Islamic World.

My dollars worth.

 

[tooter]

If the Bush tax cuts aren't extended, I will sell all the profit I have in any holding before the end of the year, since not doing so means I will pay double the taxes that I would if I waited until January 1. I will also re-balance my portfolio away from dividend paying stock and shift into growth stocks, since I will pay the same ordinary income tax on capital gains as I will on dividends. This will punish companies who are well run and have the money to pay dividends, but also reward companies who plow every dollar back into the business to make it grow in value. The short term effect on the Market will be devastating. The Bush tax cuts do not just help the rich, they help people like me, who have investments that are the major source of their income. It will equalize in the end, but I think it's bad idea to increase taxes just when the country is trying to pull itself out of the worst downturn since the 30's. When the unemployment rate is back down to 4%, that's the time to increase taxes and start paying down our debt.

Hey UP,

I admire how you played the cards dealt to you and are making the best of your hand. You also made an excellent point about the Bush tax cuts. They help the businessmen who are the backbone of the American economy. And the very worst time to punish production by raising taxes is when production is at its lowest.

I will posit one last thought about our current condition. I think the US is lagging other world economies because it's not November yet. We are going to stay range-bound, both in the Markets and unemployment, until the business community knows the outcome of the November elections.

Exactly.

Uncertainty stifles production as no businesses wants to make the wrong move that gets them stabbed in the back by a bloated insolvent revenue-hungry government infested with unproductive do-nothing bureaucrats.

I'm a Libertarian, so I have no love for either party, but businesses are looking for the Republicans to regain control of at least one of the houses of Congress.

I belong to the Tea Party Patriots, and we're working towards the goal of both houses... and we are going to ROCK the elections in November as they will be a referendum on whether America remains a democratic republic... or devolves into another dime-a-dozen benefits dispensing socialist welfare state.

This will restore some sense of the checks and balances built into our system. If the Democrats keep control of both houses, we will look back on 2010 as being a good year for the economy.

True... if the people who produce nothing useful prevail, these will be known as the good old days!

 

[UP2CSX]

Tooter, I too believe the November elections are going to be a watershed for the path we are taking. With 47% of voters paying no income tax, there is a lot of incentive for these folks to get out and vote to continue the status quo. My only consolation is that, historically, this class of citizens do not turn out in large numbers for mid-term elections. I'm hoping that those of us with skin in the game recognize how crucial the results of this election will become and get out and vote. My own position is that any incumbent, even those I like, gets the thumbs down. We have to send a strong message that they work for us, not the other way around, and the only way to do that is a massive wave of incumbent defeats for politicians of both parties.

You have correctly pointed out that uncertainty is the biggest impediment to economic recovery. I can make money in deflation, inflation, even stagflation, but I can't make money when the direction of the Markets depends on which sector of the economy the President decides to beat up on this week. There are some Democrats in the Congress with the good sense to recognize that letting the Bush tax cuts expire will be a body blow to the economy. One can only hope that they can team up with like-minded Republicans and at least postpone the sunsetting of the tax cuts for at least a year. The worst possible outcome in November would be the Democrats retaining control of both houses and the Bush tax cuts ending January 1. I fear for the future of the US as a free republic should that happen.

 

[CBCNSfan]

Gentlemen please refrain from PARTY POLITICS, there have been reports about this thread as it sort of slips in and sort of out of Politics. This is a very difficult thread to moderate because because of the topic which is legitimate, however the topic is also controlled by politics which makes moderating it some what of a conundrum

My sort of political statement
"Governments are the people, Politicians are representatives of said people, Said people are the only ones that can change the direction taken by their representatives"
Admin and Moderators have left this thread alone because of the seriousness of the economy, (which is the topic) and there has been a lot of good and pertinent discussion in some posts. Assigning blame to one party or other at this stage is the result of frustration and will accomplish little. We have all chosen our own path to travel in this life so when we come to an option of choice, decisions have to be made again hoping the end result will be in our own best interest

Try to keep from assigning blame to political parties (difficult to do) but in any case keep it civil. Also keep in mind if the economy of the USA fails there wont be one one country in the world that will escape unscathed, that my friends is just how serious the situation actually is.

Cheers
Willis

PS: This post is not directed at any one member or post, I just happened to note it followed Jim's post. Sorry Jim I agree