Unusual trend in sales.

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Well several successful businesses up here went belly up because their banks cut off their line of credit.

What strange logic, Espee.

They can't be successful businesses if they fail.

That's like the addicted junkie (the insolvent debtor) blaming their dope pusher (the bank) for witholding their "cocaine line" of credit.

The bank just bailed on them, as a result of poor decisions that they (the bank) had made. Tell me what these business owners did wrong, and how it was their fault, and if you say it's because they needed a line of credit to operate, then you are saying that the vast majority of business done around the world is being done incorrectly.

Yes. That's exactly what I'm saying. The businesses that failed in this economic reckoning cycle are completely at fault for having become addicted to the drug of debt to the point of exceeding their ability to create wealth.

I'm looking at how it has effected everyone else, and what is broken in our capitalist system and needs fixed.

There's nothing broken in the Capitalist system...

...the only thing that's broken are the people who aren't Capitalists.

Your theories aren't bad, but they assume that the underlying system is sound, and right now, it isn't.

The American Capitalist system is sound... but only for those who live by it's principles:

Decency
Responsibility
Productivity
Solvency
and Frugality

Everyone in America who lives by those principles will be as successful as their telents and abilities will make them...

...regardless of any economic or political cycle.

The reasons are many, and it'll take a while before things return to something near normal. A good strong economy requires an educated capable workforce, healthy businesses, and the proper amount of regulation, not too much, not too little.

The only real regulation that counts is self-regulation.

We've been out of balance too long, either too far one way or another. The ups & downs are getting more & more extreme. I find this worrisome.

It can only worry you to the extent that your own financial situation is out of balance, for that is what makes you subject to the ups and downs.

What I seem to be hearing you say is "I got mine, the rest can go hang"

What I'm actually saying is that I work to earn the right to own everything that I possess. This is what it means to be an American Capitalist. I suggest to you that the damage of this reckoning is not touching the Capitalists. It is only wreaking havoc on the imprudently insolvent Creditists... just as they deserve.

I have absolutely no control over how others choose to live. Everyone else is exactly as personally responsible for the just and deserved consequences of their own choices as I am... because everyone is playing under exactly the same moral rules. :)

Greg
 
But I may have to hook up a treadmill bike & alternator to power the layout.:(

Get a small solar array. You don't need to be tied into the grid. Just ask live aboard boat owners and RV gypsies.

If you check some truckers' supply companies, you can even find 12V microwaves...
 
Recreational vehicle parts supply houses are an excellent resource for all of the 12V appliances... and lighting, too. :)
 


What strange logic, Espee.

They can't be successful businesses if they fail.

That's like the addicted junkie (the insolvent debtor) blaming their dope pusher (the bank) for witholding their "cocaine line" of credit.



Yes. That's exactly what I'm saying. The businesses that failed in this economic reckoning cycle are completely at fault for having become addicted to the drug of debt to the point of exceeding their ability to create wealth.



There's nothing broken in the Capitalist system...

...the only thing that's broken are the people who aren't Capitalists.



The American Capitalist system is sound... but only for those who live by it's principles:

Decency
Responsibility
Productivity
Solvency
and Frugality

Everyone in America who lives by those principles will be as successful as their telents and abilities will make them...

...regardless of any economic or political cycle.



The only real regulation that counts is self-regulation.



It can only worry you to the extent that your own financial situation is out of balance, for that is what makes you subject to the ups and downs.



What I'm actually saying is that I work to earn the right to own everything that I possess. This is what it means to be an American Capitalist. I suggest to you that the damage of this reckoning is not touching the Capitalists. It is only wreaking havoc on the imprudently insolvent Creditists... just as they deserve.

I have absolutely no control over how others choose to live. Everyone else is exactly as personally responsible for the just and deserved consequences of their own choices as I am... because everyone is playing under exactly the same moral rules. :)

Greg



It's unfortunate that several people who over do on credit cards are purchasing food to survive and not purchasing "toys". They don't have the time to sell themselves as a "business". You are lucky to have what you have because a toss of the dice could have made your life totally different. You need to re-evaluate your "judge and jury" attitude and see things from the other side. You and I have what we have not only because we worked hard, but for some ungodly reason, something positive happened. Hard work does not guarantee success. Unfortunately others work hard and don't get ahead and it's not because there not trying. Call it bad luck or karma. And yes, successful business's do fail from no fault of there own. You know better than that.

Whatever happen to compassion in this country. Your " I got mine" attitude is unfortunately, part of what is wrong in this country. I feel sorry for you.

Larry
 
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Get a small solar array. You don't need to be tied into the grid. Just ask live aboard boat owners and RV gypsies.

If you check some truckers' supply companies, you can even find 12V microwaves...

:D can even find 12V microwaves..:D

I haven't come across those yet but I have a 115 VAC MW in my RV and it sucks 120 amps out of the batteries while running, I'm afraid you'll need a lot more than the small solar cell arrays that are available to charge those batteries big enough to run a MW. At 12 volts that MW would have to have quite a power cord :D

Cheers
Willis
 
- (Snip)- Whatever happen to compassion in this country. I don't think I'd ever would want to ever do business with you and now I'm sorry I entered this forum string.

Larry

I don't know, what did happen to compassion in this country? Were we always this polarized? Resentful? Arrogant? Demanding?

For what it's worth, I grew up in a border line poor family. My father was unemployed as much as he was employed. My mother wouldn't work because "the Church" disapproved:). I stepped out of line, so to speak, busted my hump working on the railroad, and ended up much better off than I ever imagined.

I always shared my experience and knowledge with others, trying to "give back". Sharing my good fortune so to speak. However, I am not sympathetic with those who refuse to help themselves, but expect handouts.

Recently, I have observed people who think they are entitled to be compensated for their personal failures and lack of personal responsibility. If that's lack of compassion, I'm guilty.

JW
 
Willis, thanks for the word of warning. This is a delicate but interesting thread. It is dicussing some vital issues for the US and world in general, and I'm glad to see it continue, as long as we all remain civil and respect the right of others to disagree. As I said, I have no love for any political party. We only need to restore some balance on the legislative side of the triangle if we are to succeed as a republic. You are also right that the US will not go down by itself. There will be a giant sucking sound from economies around the world. :eek:

I am concerned that we are creating an entitlement mentality, not only here, but in other places we have influence. On my trip to Honduras, one congegation wanted know if we were going to paint their church. I thought they were kidding, but they were serious. I told the pastor that I'm sure we could fund some paint, but his people were perfectly capable of using a paint brush and painting their own church. This church was just built for them by another group of Norte Americano missionaries two years ago. We are training them to not do anything until we come down and do the work for them. I have real problems with this concept as a missionary, and I see much the same attitude in certain portions of our population here. I will not argue that a certain amount of luck (and the good grace of God) didn't play a role in my success, but I never would have done anything as long as I though some (insert name of group here) would do everything for me.

As for 12 volt microwaves, I've never seen one. I don't think you can push the amount of amps needed at 12 volts without having a cable the size of my leg. :) My 1000 watt inverter might be able to run the microwave for maybe five minutes before my batteries were dead. There is, however, much to be said for changing over many of the other things we use in our houses to 12 volts. It's really silly to be running halogen lamps that run on 12 volts by having to down convert 120 to 12. This is an area where some prudent government legislation on 12 volt requirements for new housing could have a major impact on our energy use.
 
What strange logic, Espee.

They can't be successful businesses if they fail.

That's like the addicted junkie (the insolvent debtor) blaming their dope pusher (the bank) for witholding their "cocaine line" of credit.
Greg

That's a pretty bizarre point of view for a business owner. :confused: Most businesses of any size or consequence have a line of credit. Think car dealerships, general contractors, home builders, and all kinds of producers of durable goods. Pull the line out from under them at the wrong time and you can create havoc, or in the worst case, kill the company. The businesses I'm referring to were smallish, 50-75 employees, profitable, with backlog, and executing it. All characterisitcs of a successful business wouldn't you say? So, I ask again, what did these guys do wrong?

There's nothing broken in the Capitalist system...

...the only thing that's broken are the people who aren't Capitalists.



The American Capitalist system is sound... but only for those who live by it's principles:

Decency
Responsibility
Productivity
Solvency
and Frugality

Everyone in America who lives by those principles will be as successful as their telents and abilities will make them...

...regardless of any economic or political cycle.

You're not going to tell us all to go shopping now are you?:p Lots of feel good talk there but not much fact to back it up.


Seriously, leading economic inicators disagree with you. The NY times carried an article today that gave some interesting statistics. Growth down, employment outlook poor, durable goods output down, consumer spending weaker than expected, in general, recovery slowing. Doesn't sound stable to me.

The only real regulation that counts is self-regulation.

That would be true if everyone practiced it on both sides of the table. Unfortunately, if you look at the crash, you'll find that the greed and recklessness you blame the people for was also practiced by our corporations and financial institutions. As I mentioned previously in this thread, our corporate culture has done a fine job of demonstrating that they need some rules to live by, since they can't seem to police themselves.

Let's look at an example...Lots of folks bought more house than they could really afford, wound up with payments they couldn't make, or after the crash, a house worth a fraction of what they owed on it. Reckless? Yes. Poor decision? You bet.

Now, let's look at the folks on the other side of the table. What about the people who wrote these loans knowing that the borrower couldn't hack the payments? Or the way groups of these securities were bundled together, given a Triple A rating with a wink and a nod and sold as safe investments by other institutions playing fast & loose? Also reckless if not outright dishonest.

When I bought my first house I sat down with a banker who knew my history and was very interested in my ability to pay back the loan because his bank was going to hold the note. Most of the bad mortgages written were done by brokers who made a commission and sold the loan. They had no interest in the long term. They couldn't have cared less. Accountability had gone away. We need that accountability back big time.

It can only worry you to the extent that your own financial situation is out of balance, for that is what makes you subject to the ups and downs.

Think so? I can't agree here. Billions in net worth were lost from retirement savings due to the market crash. Like the ripples in a pond when a stone is tossed in radiate outward, wild ups & downs affect everyone to some degree, even if it's only less customers for you because people are not spending, or other lost business opportunities. Last year my company lost a lot of business because raw materials costs were insane. It was pretty much impossible to hedge material costs because of the roller coaster ride these costs were taking

What I'm actually saying is that I work to earn the right to own everything that I possess. This is what it means to be an American Capitalist. I suggest to you that the damage of this reckoning is not touching the Capitalists. It is only wreaking havoc on the imprudently insolvent Creditists... just as they deserve.

I have absolutely no control over how others choose to live. Everyone else is exactly as personally responsible for the just and deserved consequences of their own choices as I am... because everyone is playing under exactly the same moral rules. :)
Greg

Well Greg, you can dress it up as pretty as you like, but it's the same message.

As for everyone playing by the same moral rules? Not really. I think the folks who bought those credit default swaps, or invested money with Bernie might disagree with you.

Recklessness, impatience and greed by consumers did play a big part in causing our current problems, but these were also enabled by reckless business practices, corporate greed, and too much deregulation.

You seem to want to let our corporations and Wall Street do whatever they want, make their own rules. Well, that really doesn't seem to have worked that well so far...it is a big part of what caused our present economic woes.

People need to tighten their belts, business needs to be accountable, and government needs to facilitate or regulate as needed.

You viewpoint seems very black & white. I wish it was that simple, but there is a lot of gray in the world.
 
Willis, thanks for the word of warning. This is a delicate but interesting thread. It is dicussing some vital issues for the US and world in general, and I'm glad to see it continue, as long as we all remain civil and respect the right of others to disagree. As I said, I have no love for any political party. We only need to restore some balance on the legislative side of the triangle if we are to succeed as a republic. You are also right that the US will not go down by itself. There will be a giant sucking sound from economies around the world. :eek:

Ditto Willis! I was expecting the thread to get locked at some point and have done my level best to keep politics out and economics in, except for those unavoidable instances where political decisions have caused events and had to be referenced. It is good to get some mental exercise without things degenerating into insults and flame wars as happens on other forums.

Like Jim, I don't have any party favorites either, and I think that there is plenty of blame to go around on both sides of the aisle for the pickle we are in.

What really spooks me about the whole situation is the polarization, the refusal to consider the opposing viewpoint, the gridlock. This country was built on comprimise. Something too many of our representatives seem to have either forgotten or have no interest in practicing. I hope that changes at some point, but I'm not holding my breath while I wait!

Cheers and thanks again!
 
As for 12 volt microwaves, I've never seen one. I don't think you can push the amount of amps needed at 12 volts without having a cable the size of my leg. :) My 1000 watt inverter might be able to run the microwave for maybe five minutes before my batteries were dead. There is, however, much to be said for changing over many of the other things we use in our houses to 12 volts. It's really silly to be running halogen lamps that run on 12 volts by having to down convert 120 to 12. This is an area where some prudent government legislation on 12 volt requirements for new housing could have a major impact on our energy use.

I never head what you are talking about... isnt it fully documented that higher voltage reduce lost in transport ? (super high voltage lines). The US government whant to do that for real ? The one who said that is clearly not informed.... Who is going to provide 120v converter for the old stuff ? :D
My gaming Pc draw 700W per hour, 700/12 = 58 amps ! We would need gage 4~10 wire everywhere ! (atleast !)
 


You are lucky to have what you have...

It's not luck... it's called work. In America anyone who is decent responsible productive solvent and frugal will prosper regardless of how others choose to live.

Hard work does not guarantee success.

That's true, 68...
Life itself is an assumed risk.
I failed in business before I succeeded.

And yes, successful business's do fail from no fault of their own.

If a business fails... by definition it's not successful.
Only business that don't fail are successful.

Whatever happen to compassion in this country.

That all depends if who you are having compassion on deserves your compassion. There's lots of people who make showy displays of phony compassion for what's wrong in others... which only causes them harm by excusing their wrongs. It takes wisdom to show compassion, not with empty phony words, but by actually helping those who deserve to be helped.

Your "I got mine" attitude...

You're mistaken, 68. I didn't "got mine". It took a lifetime of hard work to earn the right to own what I have... and that's not a complaint. There's no more satisfying feeling than to be useful to others by improving the quality of their lives. :)
 
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:)Europe, especially non English speaking Europe, is quite backward and really does not merit a position on any issue. Europeans are by nature pessimistic and resent individualism. They are also quite mired in the quicksand of Socialist Democracy. Europe is largely insolvent. Quite honestly, I do not believe they have anything constructive to offer. They are certainly not helpful in confronting the dangers and challenges forthcoming from the Islamic World.

My dollars worth.

It's even worse... European society has become so weak and feminised it's being assimilated by the Islamic world.
 
For what it's worth, I grew up in a border line poor family. My father was unemployed as much as he was employed. My mother wouldn't work because "the Church" disapproved:). I stepped out of line, so to speak, busted my hump working on the railroad, and ended up much better off than I ever imagined.

That's worth a lot... :)
I always wanted to work on the railroad but my path led elsewhere. My Dad was a window washer, and he showed me how to be decent responsible and productive. I owe my present situation to living by the example he set for me.
 
So, I ask again, what did these guys do wrong?

The businesses that failed in this economic reckoning cycle are completely at fault for having become addicted to the drug of debt to the point of exceeding their ability to create wealth.


Lots of feel good talk there but not much fact to back it up.

If you feel you can succeed in business without being decent responsible productive solvent or frugal... you are welcome to try.


Seriously, leading economic inicators disagree with you. The NY times carried an article today that gave some interesting statistics. Growth down, employment outlook poor, durable goods output down, consumer spending weaker than expected, in general, recovery slowing. Doesn't sound stable to me.

They actually agree with what I said... for they indicate that the majority of people in America are not living by the principles of Capitalism.

if you look at the crash, you'll find that the greed and recklessness you blame the people for was also practiced by our corporations and financial institutions.

Corporations and financial institutions are just groups of people, so the same principles of greedily seeking to possess without working to earn the right to own apply to them.

As I mentioned previously in this thread, our corporate culture has done a fine job of demonstrating that they need some rules to live by, since they can't seem to police themselves.

That's true... and those who can't "police" themselves are now harvesting the economic consequences they deserve.

Let's look at an example...Lots of folks bought more house than they could really afford, wound up with payments they couldn't make, or after the crash, a house worth a fraction of what they owed on it. Reckless? Yes. Poor decision? You bet.

Now, let's look at the folks on the other side of the table. What about the people who wrote these loans knowing that the borrower couldn't hack the payments? Or the way groups of these securities were bundled together, given a Triple A rating with a wink and a nod and sold as safe investments by other institutions playing fast & loose? Also reckless if not outright dishonest.

Each of those two deserves the other.

The fish always matches the bait. ;)

When I bought my first house I sat down with a banker who knew my history and was very interested in my ability to pay back the loan because his bank was going to hold the note. Most of the bad mortgages written were done by brokers who made a commission and sold the loan. They had no interest in the long term. They couldn't have cared less. Accountability had gone away. We need that accountability back big time.

I took a completely different approach than you did by first saving up enough money to be able to build our own house for cash. It's a modest one, but since there aren't any mortgage payments to make, we now live in a new house for way less than the cost of renting one. So there never was a need to sit down with a banker in the first place. Instead, I first worked to earn the right to own a home outright. Living by the principles of American Capitalism renders moot all of the other issues you raised.

When there are sharks in the water,
it's wise to remain safely on the shore. ;)

As for everyone playing by the same moral rules? Not really. I think the folks who bought those credit default swaps, or invested money with Bernie might disagree with you.

They're getting exactly what they deserve for greedily breaking the same moral rules everyone is subject to. Bernie certainly got what he deserved, too.

Recklessness, impatience and greed by consumers did play a big part in causing our current problems, but these were also enabled by reckless business practices, corporate greed, and too much deregulation.

Fish = Bait

You seem to want to let our corporations and Wall Street do whatever they want, make their own rules. Well, that really doesn't seem to have worked that well so far...it is a big part of what caused our present economic woes.

The "present economic woes" are simply greedy people getting the consequences they deserve whether they're people, or corporation people, or wall street people.

And they're not "our present economic woes"... they're "your economic woes".

Because I declined to participate in the greedy credit binge, they're not mine.

People need to tighten their belts, business needs to be accountable, and government needs to facilitate or regulate as needed.

I agree.

You viewpoint seems very black & white.

That's because right and wrong is black and white.

I wish it was that simple, but there is a lot of gray in the world.

All of the grey is black. ;)
 
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does it strike anyone else as odd that on a forum focused on a shared interest of the model train hobby that this kind of thread is one of the longest?

by odd... I think I mean unfortunate.
 
does it strike anyone else as odd that on a forum focused on a shared interest of the model train hobby that this kind of thread is one of the longest?

by odd... I think I mean unfortunate.

Everyone has an axe to grind or a horn to toot. Sometimes they just need an opportunity to share it with others.
 
Everyone has an axe to grind or a horn to toot. Sometimes they just need an opportunity to share it with others.

Winston Churchill was a train modeler, so maybe it take the same kind of personality ? Sometime psychologist speak about "multiple intelligence" people who are manual, other who have compassion... etc

This site behing a modeling forum, everyone share at least one common interest... but its look like there is more... if you see what I mean.
 
If you feel you can succeed in business without being decent responsible productive solvent or frugal... you are welcome to try.

I didn't say that. There you go putting words in my mouth again...


They actually agree with what I said... for they indicate that the majority of people in America are not living by the principles of Capitalism.

Corporations and financial institutions are just groups of people, so the same principles of greedily seeking to possess without working to earn the right to own apply to them.

True, but as these people are all supposed to be edcuated professionals working within an ethical fraamework to provide specific services, they should be held to a higher degree of responsiblity...you tend to trust your banker..and take his advice...at least you should, or you should get another one.

The "present economic woes" are simply greedy people getting the consequences they deserve whether they're people, or corporation people, or wall street people.

And they're not "our present economic woes"... they're "your economic woes".

Because I declined to participate in the greedy credit binge, they're not mine.

So were back to "Everything's fine at my house, so there's no problem"

Your solution is "do nothing"?

And you've either missed or sidestepped the issue of those who did lose net worth without participating in the credit binge, and there were quite a few. This is why these bad decisions can effect everybody (except you I guess).

The type of cash up front society you advocate isn't going to happen. The proper use of credit is an integral part of how we do buisness. (Again, I wonder why I need to explain this to a business owner:confused:) It would be great if it did, but then we'd have a bunch of unemployed financial sector workers to retrain. What to do...

That's because right and wrong is black and white.

Ever talk to a lawyer? Or listen to one, or even better, to a politician? Once again, kind of a narrow view that might work for you, but that doesn't translate well to the real world. Works great in fairy tales and campaign speeches though...wait, those are pretty much the same thing, aren't they?:eek:
 
does it strike anyone else as odd that on a forum focused on a shared interest of the model train hobby that this kind of thread is one of the longest?

by odd... I think I mean unfortunate.

Yeah, we went pretty far afield I guess, and Tooter and I aren't going to convince each other where we disagree. OTOH we do agree on some things, and not one insult got hurled. This whole thing started out as a question on hobby sales and how they are effected by the economy, then took on a life of it's own somehow, but we're all friends here and can share opinions, have friendly agruements, and even disagree. The only thing missing was the beer!

If those following the thread are put off, we can stop. I think the discusion has pretty much run it's course anyway.
 


Tooter,

All said and done....... we could beat this topic to death. We all have different viewpoints. I owned a business with seven employees and decided I was tired of making a nice place for people to work. I went to a large corporation where I had no worries. It seems you possibly went the other way. I won't change your thinking and you won't change mine, but I'll respect you views. Lets get back to talking layouts or whatever. No harm no foul. That's what makes this country great.

Larry
 
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