Bob, you have at least 90 days with most credit card companies to dispute a payment, especially when it's an order on the net. I'd call them now (assuming you're still up), since all the major credit cards have 24 hour service. I've had to do this several times and it wasn't a problem. They'll e-mail or snail mail you a form to give them all the information on the order but they'll credit you immediately. It's then up to the merchant to prove he delivered the goods. I'd also let them know about all the other complaints on this outfit. Your credit card provider can escalate it to Visa or whoever owns the actual credit card company. Too many complaints and the credit card companies will cancel their merchant agreement. This is a lot more effective than the BBB, since it's awfully hard to do business on the net if you can't take credit cards.
SPTrains.com Warning!!
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Luckily, I caught it before they charged my card and I cancelled the order. I also filed a complaint with Discover. Its a shame there are web sites like SP Trains. I agree with the other post that said not having an "About Us" is a red flag. Also, thanks to someone on here, I was able to get the phone number, its not listed anywhere on the site which should have been a HUGE red flag for me. Live and learn.
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stationmaster
Crusty Old Geezer
Yeah, Jim, I'm up. I never sleep more than 3-4 hours at a time due to my back.
I'll call VISA as you suggest. I'm a very patient person, I guess that comes from my days as a sniper. I have had many dealings with SPTrains and this is the very first problem I've had with them. I know that SPT is a sponsor on a couple of other forums. Maybe someone should inform the Admins that there is a real problem with these guys. Not only take away their credit card affiliations, but their advertising too.
Be back in a short with any news I get from the credit card company.
Bob
I'll call VISA as you suggest. I'm a very patient person, I guess that comes from my days as a sniper. I have had many dealings with SPTrains and this is the very first problem I've had with them. I know that SPT is a sponsor on a couple of other forums. Maybe someone should inform the Admins that there is a real problem with these guys. Not only take away their credit card affiliations, but their advertising too.
Be back in a short with any news I get from the credit card company.
Bob
stationmaster
Crusty Old Geezer
OK, I'm back. That sure didn't take long. The young lady took all of my information over the phone. I forwarded a file with my order information and of course my credit card number, that they already had in their files. I included in the file I forwarded, the order I placed and the confirmation that I received. She said I will have a decision in 10-15 business days. If I do not I am to call back with a reference number that she gave me.
I keep all information and emails in vendor files. I have never had the need to use them before today. I must have over 200 companies I've done business with. Good ting I've kept up such a routine. I insist, when possible, to use email as my preferred mode of contact. Get it in writing and it's hard to dispute.
I erred in saying that I ordered 4 engines. There were (2)P2K C&O F7 AB units and (3)Atlas U23B Monon engines as well as a few cars, gons mostly. Total sale was almost $800.
I am going to get in touch with the admins of the other forums and see if they have any inside information on these guys. If I were to be the owner of a site, I sure wouldn't want to be affiliated with someone with such a bad reputation.
I'll let all know what pans out in the next couple of weeks.
Bob
I keep all information and emails in vendor files. I have never had the need to use them before today. I must have over 200 companies I've done business with. Good ting I've kept up such a routine. I insist, when possible, to use email as my preferred mode of contact. Get it in writing and it's hard to dispute.
I erred in saying that I ordered 4 engines. There were (2)P2K C&O F7 AB units and (3)Atlas U23B Monon engines as well as a few cars, gons mostly. Total sale was almost $800.
I am going to get in touch with the admins of the other forums and see if they have any inside information on these guys. If I were to be the owner of a site, I sure wouldn't want to be affiliated with someone with such a bad reputation.
I'll let all know what pans out in the next couple of weeks.
Bob
Last edited by a moderator:
Bob, sorry about the back problems. Mine is night leg cramps. Ouch! 
Glad to hear it went smoothly with Visa. My provider bends over backwards to help me when I have a merchant problem because I run a fair amount of dollars through them every month. I've never paid them a dime in interest but I guess they live in hope. 
Good thing you're such an organized guy. It sounds like SPTrains isn't, which will make it a lot easier to get your money back. I give net orders 45 days and three contacts. If the goods still aren't here, I cancel the order and, in the rare case where they have already billed my credit card, I dispute it immediately. Just like being a sniper, you have to take your shot while the target is still in range. I refuse to deal with companies that bill my CC before an order shipped. I've found that it's a red flag if you have a company that does this and almost a sure sign of trouble ahead. I don't pay for gas until I'm filling up my tank so there's no reason for a reputable company to bill your CC in advance of shipping unless you're special ordering something. Even then, they should be able to get by with authorizing the credit card, so they know you're good for the money. I hate companies using my money to finance their operations with nothing in return.
Spreading the word on this outfit to other forums and admins is a good idea. I've always thought we should have a blacklist. I know there's a web site where you can go and rat out bad companies but I can't seem to find it in my favorites right now. Maybe they should be more organized.
Glad to hear it went smoothly with Visa. My provider bends over backwards to help me when I have a merchant problem because I run a fair amount of dollars through them every month. I've never paid them a dime in interest but I guess they live in hope. Good thing you're such an organized guy. It sounds like SPTrains isn't, which will make it a lot easier to get your money back. I give net orders 45 days and three contacts. If the goods still aren't here, I cancel the order and, in the rare case where they have already billed my credit card, I dispute it immediately. Just like being a sniper, you have to take your shot while the target is still in range. I refuse to deal with companies that bill my CC before an order shipped. I've found that it's a red flag if you have a company that does this and almost a sure sign of trouble ahead. I don't pay for gas until I'm filling up my tank so there's no reason for a reputable company to bill your CC in advance of shipping unless you're special ordering something. Even then, they should be able to get by with authorizing the credit card, so they know you're good for the money. I hate companies using my money to finance their operations with nothing in return.
Spreading the word on this outfit to other forums and admins is a good idea. I've always thought we should have a blacklist. I know there's a web site where you can go and rat out bad companies but I can't seem to find it in my favorites right now. Maybe they should be more organized.
csx 404
New Member
Folks, here's a friendly warning...DON'T BUY FROM SPTRAINS.com!!! As others have speculated, this is a web site that does not stock anything they have on the site. I waited a month, sent numerous e-mails, never got a response. Finally, thanks to someone on here, I got the phone number 1-866-601-5616. They don't list the number anywhere on their site, which should be a red flag. The woman there obviously deals with more than model railroad supplies as I had to tell her it was the "train site" I ordered from. She thought I was calling about some other business. She looked up my order and found that the item was not in stock at Walthers. They never bothered to notify me even though it appeared that they had it in stock. This is definitely a fly by night outfit.
stationmaster
Crusty Old Geezer
NEWS FLASH!!!
I got my money back and the CC company added some interest. Anyone know of any train shows close by this weekend? This money is burnin' a hole in my pocket. lol
SPTrains has been deleted from another forum as a sponsor.
Bob
I got my money back and the CC company added some interest. Anyone know of any train shows close by this weekend? This money is burnin' a hole in my pocket. lol
SPTrains has been deleted from another forum as a sponsor.
Bob
Rico
BNSF Modeller
Well you just missed the annual show and sale in Winnipeg, I'm guessing it may have been a wee bit too far to justify the spending tho!
Good to hear you got your money back! I checked out that site... another red flag for me is the lack of an "about us" section on the webpage, not very proud of themselves are they?
Good to hear you got your money back! I checked out that site... another red flag for me is the lack of an "about us" section on the webpage, not very proud of themselves are they?
leghome
Maytag "Danged Agitator"
Bob you also just missed the CID/MWR/NMRA show in Danville IN. last Sat. The next big one I know of is November 7th and 8th at Hare Arena in Dayton OH. 11 til 5 on Sat and 11 til 4 on Sun. $6 admission and is sponsered by Division 3, Mid-Central Region, NMRA. Free parking. If you want to go over you can park in my drive and I will drive. it is about an hour drive from here.
Bob, glad to hear you got your money back with interest and got them whacked from another site. CSX404, I hope Discover does the same for you. I think the most effective thing you both can do is call your credit card issuer and ask them to file a complaint with whatever the parent company of the actual credit card is. You can certainly refer them to this thread. After a certain amount of complaints, the credit card sompany will terminate their merchant agreement. They are usually quick to do so with companies that cost them money, like Bob's case. If they can't take credit cards, they will soon be out of business.
stationmaster
Crusty Old Geezer
Jim, my CC is a Visa direct card. I've had this account for what seems like a ba-jillion years, at least 35 years. I can make my payments at any merchant that accepts the card.
Seems like the total of sites now blackballing SPTrains is up to three that I know of personally. Losing exposure and possibly their merchant agreement cannot be good.
Bob
Seems like the total of sites now blackballing SPTrains is up to three that I know of personally. Losing exposure and possibly their merchant agreement cannot be good.
Bob
csx 404
New Member
Luckily, I caught it before they charged my card and I cancelled the order. I also filed a complaint with Discover. Its a shame there are web sites like SP Trains. I agree with the other post that said not having an "About Us" is a red flag. Also, thanks to someone on here, I was able to get the phone number, its not listed anywhere on the site which should have been a HUGE red flag for me. Live and learn.
Stop the larceny!
Hi all. New member because I've been trying to resolve an issue with this exact vendor. The more we bond together against vendors like this that are not consumer friendly, the better the hobby purchasing will be for all. Here is my take:
1) Placed an order because they listed "in-stock" something I was really trying to find that had gone "out of stock" at the manufacturer. I've had success in getting things this way with "brick and morter" outfits and wholesalers who actually warehouse product. Despite the indications on the site, this wholesaler obviously is drop ship only with no actual inventory!.
2) Immediately received the auto email confirming order and supplying the "receipt". Again, no backorder or stock issue mentioned on the receipt, so I'm thinking i'll get it. A month later no delivery, no further info.
3) Go through a months worth of emails and digging to try to get a status or get my money back. Last straw was to go through my bank and simultaneously start a Better Business Bureau complaint.
4) The BBB complaint went unresolved with no response from the business to the BBB. THis is why the site and business still have an F rating with the local BBB. I shoulda checked first, but you know how it is when you see something you're afraid someone else will snatch up.
5) Final straw, I'm out $50.00 because the bank did not reverse the charge due to the lack of documentation at the time. I have since started a complaint with the PA Attorney General and re-opened my case with the bank with the additional information I had obtained. It's now been 5 months and this is still bugging me.
I suggest that everyone who has had poor dealings with this organization or a subsidiary contact the PA Attorney General and if necessary their own states' Attorney General as it seems this outfit runs multiple sites and multiple businesses all operating with the same shady tactics.
Hi all. New member because I've been trying to resolve an issue with this exact vendor. The more we bond together against vendors like this that are not consumer friendly, the better the hobby purchasing will be for all. Here is my take:
1) Placed an order because they listed "in-stock" something I was really trying to find that had gone "out of stock" at the manufacturer. I've had success in getting things this way with "brick and morter" outfits and wholesalers who actually warehouse product. Despite the indications on the site, this wholesaler obviously is drop ship only with no actual inventory!.
2) Immediately received the auto email confirming order and supplying the "receipt". Again, no backorder or stock issue mentioned on the receipt, so I'm thinking i'll get it. A month later no delivery, no further info.
3) Go through a months worth of emails and digging to try to get a status or get my money back. Last straw was to go through my bank and simultaneously start a Better Business Bureau complaint.
4) The BBB complaint went unresolved with no response from the business to the BBB. THis is why the site and business still have an F rating with the local BBB. I shoulda checked first, but you know how it is when you see something you're afraid someone else will snatch up.
5) Final straw, I'm out $50.00 because the bank did not reverse the charge due to the lack of documentation at the time. I have since started a complaint with the PA Attorney General and re-opened my case with the bank with the additional information I had obtained. It's now been 5 months and this is still bugging me.
I suggest that everyone who has had poor dealings with this organization or a subsidiary contact the PA Attorney General and if necessary their own states' Attorney General as it seems this outfit runs multiple sites and multiple businesses all operating with the same shady tactics.
ChevelleSSguy
Member
This is why you should ALWAYS use a regular credit card when dealing with a company you are not familiar with the first order or 2. Im sure even then, you can get shafted though. But its much easier to despute this stuff with a regular credit card company. Ill admit though, I havent had much of a problem with the dealers I have done business with so even this may be subjective. Best thing I can say though. If you find a vendor your not familiar with that has something you want, I would post here and try finding others out there that have delt with them and can give you a good or bad recommendataion.
flyboy2610
Loveably weird
Never buy anything on the net with a debit card. The shmoes will have direct access to your bank account if you do. You can always get a pre-paid credit card from your bank, with your credit line being secured by a matching amount of money in the cards account. In other words, you put $500 into an account and the bank will issue you a credit card for a $500 credit limit. The money stays in the account unless you default on your credit card payments. Most banks will convert the card into a regular credit card and refund you deposit after a certain length of time in which you show you can manage credit well. Use that instead.
ChevelleSSguy
Member
Actually. Debit cards still may have the same rules apply that a regular credit card has. It couldnt hurt to talk to your bank first though. But in any case a regular credit card is the best way to go.
stationmaster
Crusty Old Geezer
If it's a VISA debit card, you should be able to get in touch with VISA.
They refunded my money in just a few days(10 days, I think) when I had problems with SPTrains.
It would seem like someone, somewhere, could close this outfit down. They surely can't be making any money with the reputation they have built........
Bob
They refunded my money in just a few days(10 days, I think) when I had problems with SPTrains.
It would seem like someone, somewhere, could close this outfit down. They surely can't be making any money with the reputation they have built........
Bob
Further Information
After a full weekend of digging, I have uncovered some additional information that I would like to share for anyone who has difficulty reaching this company.
1) The SPTrains site (sptrains.com) is apparently a sub-company of Stone Plow Inc. (stoneplow.com) listed in the better business bureau as principaled by Edward P. Abraham, business via PO Box 300, Broadheadsville, PA. Stone Plow's site also has no telephone contact information.
2) Information I obtained from this and other forums included a phone number of Stone Plow, 570.722.0205 which upon answer indicates it has been changed to 866.601.5616
3) I was finally able to reach a living breathing human being at the above number who answered the phone as Ozbo? She indicated they also handled the SP trains orders. Further info shows that Ozbo (ozbo.com) is an online grocery, owned and operated by EPA Logistics of 3 Rotary Drive, Hazleton, PA., Mr. Edward P Abraham - President (also listed as the address for Legal Notices).
4) Even further digging ties the PO Box 300, Broadheadsville, PA adress to the online site "The Liquid Fence Company" (liquidfence.com), with additional adress and phone information of 570.722.8165 / 1295 SR 534, Albrightsville, PA - Edward P. Abraham - President per BBB and 1-800-923-3623 per the lidquid fence website.
I list only the factual information I have found for the purposes of others to reach a customer service person to resolve a problem, as the SP Trains site on the date of this post maintained no customer service telephone number, and my multiple contact attempts via the listed customer service "email" went un-answered. I suggest if you are having difficulty like I did in reaching the company regarding an order you try one or multiple of these numbers and associated companies.
I also did not care for the "Terms and Conditions" on the Ozbo site, which indicated you "passively" agree based on mere use of their site (visiting & viewing) or any other site related to EPA Logistics, a customer service clause indicating they are not obligated in any way to provide you customer service, and a media clause indicating if you post anything to one of their sites you give them 100% free rights to do anything they want with it, including your likeness and personal info. These T's&C's only appear on the Ozbo site, but per the opening paragraph apply to ALL their related sites, past, present, and future.
As I mentioned I did get to speak with a live person, who politely accepted my request to cancel the order and refund my money. I will be checking the account for the next week to see they follow through with the credit and will update the info accordingly. Until then, my re-opened case with VISA still stands.
Hope this helps someone else,
MadCS
After a full weekend of digging, I have uncovered some additional information that I would like to share for anyone who has difficulty reaching this company.
1) The SPTrains site (sptrains.com) is apparently a sub-company of Stone Plow Inc. (stoneplow.com) listed in the better business bureau as principaled by Edward P. Abraham, business via PO Box 300, Broadheadsville, PA. Stone Plow's site also has no telephone contact information.
2) Information I obtained from this and other forums included a phone number of Stone Plow, 570.722.0205 which upon answer indicates it has been changed to 866.601.5616
3) I was finally able to reach a living breathing human being at the above number who answered the phone as Ozbo? She indicated they also handled the SP trains orders. Further info shows that Ozbo (ozbo.com) is an online grocery, owned and operated by EPA Logistics of 3 Rotary Drive, Hazleton, PA., Mr. Edward P Abraham - President (also listed as the address for Legal Notices).
4) Even further digging ties the PO Box 300, Broadheadsville, PA adress to the online site "The Liquid Fence Company" (liquidfence.com), with additional adress and phone information of 570.722.8165 / 1295 SR 534, Albrightsville, PA - Edward P. Abraham - President per BBB and 1-800-923-3623 per the lidquid fence website.
I list only the factual information I have found for the purposes of others to reach a customer service person to resolve a problem, as the SP Trains site on the date of this post maintained no customer service telephone number, and my multiple contact attempts via the listed customer service "email" went un-answered. I suggest if you are having difficulty like I did in reaching the company regarding an order you try one or multiple of these numbers and associated companies.
I also did not care for the "Terms and Conditions" on the Ozbo site, which indicated you "passively" agree based on mere use of their site (visiting & viewing) or any other site related to EPA Logistics, a customer service clause indicating they are not obligated in any way to provide you customer service, and a media clause indicating if you post anything to one of their sites you give them 100% free rights to do anything they want with it, including your likeness and personal info. These T's&C's only appear on the Ozbo site, but per the opening paragraph apply to ALL their related sites, past, present, and future.
As I mentioned I did get to speak with a live person, who politely accepted my request to cancel the order and refund my money. I will be checking the account for the next week to see they follow through with the credit and will update the info accordingly. Until then, my re-opened case with VISA still stands.
Hope this helps someone else,
MadCS
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