NCE Power Pro or Digitrax Super Chief??

[Cjcrescent]

...
As fro decoders for the BB athearns, use the NCE D13SRJ's and hardwire them in, and if one goes bad, you can just unplug the decoder and send it in. The D13SRJ's can be had by the 4 pack for about $50-60, and they are four function decoders, so they support front, rear, and 2 ditch lights or whatever other 2 functions you want to assign to them.

I use these pretty much as well now. Reason, is of course, the price. However, I just use them for forward and back speed control. I run mostly steam and steam didn't run with headlights on in the day in the era I'm modeling. I hate to "waste" 3 other functions but they are cheaper than any other 2 function on the market. I wish someone would come out with a single function, other than lights, that I can use.

 

[ThoroughBreed]

I use these pretty much as well now. Reason, is of course, the price. However, I just use them for forward and back speed control. I run mostly steam and steam didn't run with headlights on in the day in the era I'm modeling. I hate to "waste" 3 other functions but they are cheaper than any other 2 function on the market. I wish someone would come out with a single function, other than lights, that I can use.

I got about 20 Lenz LE1000W's I'll trade ya for the D13's lol. The Lenz decoders are single function and we're about $14 @ in the 5 packs.
Heres a link to them if your interested: http://www.lenz.com/manuals/index.htm and choose the le1000w-v10

 

[Espeefan]

Eric, actually, there is one gentleman here who tried NCE. His name is L.Deagon MMR. He has had his system for over 7 yrs, and last I heard, it still doesn't work. He used to use the old PSI command control, (Dynatrol), but he even had major problems with it. He parked a P2K GP-18 across a gap once and the PSI reciever melted the shell!

Hi Y'all,

I'm weighing in late on this discussion but as a southerner who went north from Digitrax-town to NCE-ville I think I can shed some light on this one without too much emotion.

First Hi CJ! Haven't been logged on here in quire awhile & won't fuss about you not staying in touch as I haven't either!

I was a solid Digitrax user until moving to the Milwaukee area. I joined a club there that was solid NCE. I had no choice but to learn that system. There are things about both that have merit but I have observed that people who like Digitrax tend to be more into computers than those who don't. Running trains on either is about the same. Programming using the system is not. Setting up consists is not. In any club you'll have gurus who program for those members who can't seem to, or won't learn. Leaving the JMRI software out of the discussion (it's not part of either system) programming is much easier on the NCE system, especially with sound decoders. As for Larry Deagon's layout, it's pretty atypical. With that dual mode wiring he has, the Dynatrol didn't work very well either. I remember many operating sessions there where we waited while some bug was found & resolved or sometimes resolved itself & we never knew what happened. Larry never let anyone help with anything, so nobody could ever help him troubleshoot. The last I heard, Larry was having trouble with decoder installs and having the unit detect shorts on his locomotives when attempting to program. Not sure if these were brass models (a whole 'nother discussion!) or not, but Larry's problems are much more likely to be railroad wiring or decoder install related than system related. In my visits down there I've asked after him, but nobody has heard from him in many moons. I bet I could help him. Too bad!

One key difference with NCE is programming voltage. The system drops it automatically. No resistor in the line like with my Digitrax (Super Empire Builder). If you loco draws too much current, you'll get a "short detected" message.

I think the answer to your discussion is, as you said, what system do your buds use, and how computer savvy are you? Guys who aren't into computers won't want to fool with Decoder Pro. They'll want an easy user interface. NCE and a few others have a more friendly one than Digitrax does when programming. I have both systems, and I use my NCE system when programming decoders. I don't use Decoder Pro...I find that I don't need it. When doing sound installs or other complicated decoder programming I just write down the values on an index card and file it or place it in the loco box. Works for me. We have a large club in the Chicago area that is all Digitrax. They give clinics on DCC and are strong Digitrax supporters. Guess what they program with at shows...NCE.

Both companies support very well. Both have very good to great quality. Documentation, well, you and some others may not need it, but others might, and NCE's is better. It's a matter of personal choice and what you learn on, so the only thing to do is try both. Program a basic decoder using the system with both and let me know what you think.

Cheers!

Alan Houtz

 

[Espeefan]

Due to the rail being improperly gapped, when someone would come over to operate, if there was a train improperly parked at the wrong spot a short would develop. The short would not be powerful enough to trip those 5 amp breakers. When things like parking a loco across a gap, or a string of cars with metal bottoms and trucks was parked the same way. Interesting problems would occur. I mentioned he melted a GP-18 from P2K. One of our club members actually welded a string of Ulrich metal hoppers to the rails because of this! Occasionally the circuit breakers would throw, but not often.

LOL! I remember that session and one other, where a string of freight cars with plastic wheelsets melted onto the rail! We tried to pick the cars off the layout and left some wheelsets behind welded to the rail! I used to joke that if anyone's car battery died we could jump start them with the layout power.

Alan

 

[TaeOH]

This is a really informative thread that should be kept alive. I have to admit it really has not made my decision of a PowerCab or Zephyr easier, but it did confirm what I had already learned about the perceived weaknesses of each system.

If Radio is what I wanted right now, NCE would be the clear choice do to full duplex communication. But with a 10x13 room, wireless is not a necessity, just a 'desire'. I am a computer geek, so I will immediately use DecoderPro, so that takes away main weakness of Digitrax(which imo can also can be a strength if it offers more flexibility...I am a geeky programmer). So really it comes down to a me preferring a hand held throttle versus a table top throttle. With NCE I get that right away, with Digitrax I have to wait till I can afford a DT400(R). Since Digitrax is supposed to be offering a full duplex radio throttle some time this year, it may well fit into my budget time line.

 

[kbkchooch]

Since Digitrax is supposed to be offering a full duplex radio throttle some time this year, ........

This kinda begs the question, what about all the Digitrax radio throttles out there right now? Will they be upgradeable to duplex? At what and whose expense? Makes me wonder.

Not that it affects me, cuz I already have my NCE Radios!

 

[CBCNSfan]

Well I'll help keeping it alive Choosing a DCC system from those available isn't an easy choice. It seems what one has the others lack. Since there are no local clubs here, no local suppliers either, my choices were wide open and I drifted between the three starter sets by Zephyr, MRC and NCE. I'm afraid Bachmann and those weren't considered because of expandability.

The Zephyr had it all, except being able to disconnect and move to another layout location, this is important with a large layout area. Yes I know mobility could be achieved with an add on throttle.

The Prodigy Express had the mobility but lacked the current and the programming flexibility of the Zephyr, but overall all it became my choice of the starter sets because of the mobility issue.

The NCE Power cab like the Zephyr had programming but lacked mobility and current although advertised current was more than what was said to be the real current output of the Express
Then I read a review by Joe Fugate and based on his evaluation of the programming features of the NCE I switched from the MRC Prod. Exp. to the NCE Power Cab. As luck would have it I found some Canadian online shops who sold at the US list price in $ Cdn. this was a real find so I ordered my Power Cab. The set arrived and I was a bit dismayed to find the wall wart power supply was rated at 1.11 amps much below the MRC Express. An update with a NCE Smart Booster will look after all the deficiencies of mobility and the 3 amp output should more than sufficient for my needs.

Cheers
Willis

 

[jwils1]

Just got around to reading this thread. I'm totally amazed at some of the comments. I guess that just shows how different we all are, and that's probably a good thing.

I'm currently running two different systems with the idea of eventually deciding which to go with permanently. I have the good fortune of using both a Digitrax Zephyr/DT400R and a NCE Power Pro-R. I haven't yet completed my evaluation of both but will offer a few comments below:

I have to say that both of these systems are wonderful. It's hard to find fault with either. A lot boils down to which handheld throttle suits you best. See the photo below for each.

Note that the NCE radio throttle is almost 4" longer than the DT400 (tethered model shown and the radio throttle has a 12" long flexible cable attached for selecting locos). I much prefer the DT400. It's smaller, lighter and the compact button spacing is nice. I find myself reaching all over the place to select bottons on the NCE.

With the DT400 I hold it in my left hand and control the knobs and buttons with my right hand, quickly pressing buttons with either my thumb or index finger. This is very fast and efficient. With NCE I'm still trying to find the best way to operate but it's just not as efficient as the DT400.

Button presses on the DT400 are sharp and crisp whereas the NCE feels rather "mushy" and not as positive, but I find that these presses usually do register correctly.

Both radio systems are excellent, with no noticeable lag in response. Digitrax is simplex and NCE is duplex. Duplex is better but the simplex works much better than I thought it would. When Digitrax comes out with duplex it should be a real winner. And yes, current Digitrax throttles can be upgraded to duplex.

I don't like the fact that in programming track mode NCE shuts down power to the railroad whereas Digitrax doesn't. Also, I can't read some decoder CVs with NCE on the programming track, but the Zephyr reads them just fine. NCE requires an additional programming booster to do it.

I love programming with the DT400. Very simple, quick and easy. I think NCE is probably very good as well but I haven't used it as much..

I throw turnouts via DCC from my throttles. I like Digitrax the best for this, but it won't do routes without adding an additional device. With NCE throwing single turnouts is not as good but they do have macros for doing routes very nicely.

NCE is known for it's execellent consisting features (Advanced Consisting), although I've had some problems with it consisting QSI decoders. I can actually make consists easier and quicker using Digitrax (Universal Consisting) but I need to point out that I normally run only two-loco consists and use only 2-digit addresses. More locos and 4-digit addresses might make NCE easier.

I like NCE's loco recall ability. I sometimes have four trains running at once and can switch back and forth very quickly. Digitrax also has recall ability but it's not as easy or as fast. Running two locos at once on the DT400 is great but beyond that it takes more button presses to run 3 or more trains.

I have no problem at all with current Digitrax system manuals. Talking about their older systems is not relevant to new users selecting a system today. I have had more trouble with the Power Pro manual as far as clarity is conerned, but with either system you quickly catch on and initial confusion soon disapears.

These two systems are totally different in design and use. You can see this just by looking at the two throttles. But, they are both terrific in their own right. My comments have tended to favor Digitrax in some respects but that is probably because I haven't yet used NCE as much. I intend to give it a much more thorough trial before deciding on which I like the best. At this point I can't bad mouth either one of them. They both are produced by very fine American companies, with designers bordering on genius, and with great customer service. One just has to decide which one fits his needs the best.

Jerry

 

[Espeefan]

You know, it's interesting to see everyone's comments on this, and it's not the first time this discussion has gone around. It really depends on what you're initially exposed to, what your friends use, and what you learn on. When I bought my first system, Digitrax was half the price of NCE, and Digitrax wasn't cheap then! That made the decision easy...DCC at a reasonable cost. Now they're very close together price wise. I learned on Digitrax, and when I moved up here to Milwaukee I joined a club that used NCE. I will confess to not liking NCE at first, mostly because I was so used to how the Digitrax system worked. I especially did not like the soft touch buttons. I liked the click I got on the Digitrax throttles. After a time I got used to NCE and now I find it easier to use than Digitrax. I now own an NCE system and will likely sell my Digitrax stuff. I just don't use it anymore. Is one system better than the other? I really don't think so. Everything you can do with one you can do with the other, though differently due to the system acrhitectures. Costs are about straight up. I do find NCE's manuals easier to follow. If you don't like to read the technical stuff, there are flow chart type diagrams in the back of the manual that walk you through everything. Individual NCE decoders have more programming information in the package than Digitrax decoders do...no need to go to the "one big decoder manual", but I have many more Digitrax decoders than NCE. Again, somewhat different but equally capable. Customer service is great with either company, so it's really going to boil down to two things: What is used more in your area,(what do your buddies use?) and how tech savvy are you?

I have noticed that, all things being equal, Digitrax users tend to be more into computers, where NCE users tend to just want to run their trains. This isn't an absolute, just what I have seen among my friends, and I have them here in the Milwaukee area, where NCE is the dominant system, and in the southeast where Digitrax is equally strong.

Try before you buy, get what you like!

 

[jwils1]

While MRC is not the primary topic here the Prodigy Express has been mentioned a few times. Having had some MRC experience I would strongly recommend considering spending just a few more dollars and getting the NCE Power Cab or Digitrax Zephyr instead, or maybe a little more money and get the Prodigy Advance Squared.

The Express has some definite short comings compared to the others mentioned above. While some Express owners have expressed their satisfaction with it, I think in the long run one would be better off with one of the above mentioned systems.

It should be noted that the Express can be upgraded to the better MRC systems but that might require sending it to the factory for upgrades. It's no fun being without your system for a few weeks.

MRC certainly has some good features in their PA2 and Wireless systems. I've used both and have to say that their Wireless rivals NCE in many respects, but does lack the overall capabilities and features of NCE. The main reason I sold my MRC Wireless was because I wanted a computer interface that would accomodate JMRI, otherwise, for the price, it's a very good option.

Jerry

 

[CSX Robert]

.. I have the good fortune of using both a Digitrax Zephyr/DT400R and a NCE Power Pro-R...

..I throw turnouts via DCC from my throttles. I like Digitrax the best for this, but it won't do routes without adding an additional device. With NCE throwing single turnouts is not as good but they do have macros for doing routes very nicely.

While the Zephyr will not store routes internally, the Super Chief command station(DCS100/200) does. Whether or not you need an additional device to do routes with the Zephyr depends on the stationary decoders you use, because the Digitrax DS64 has routes built in. Since you have to have stationary decoders to do routes anyway, if you get ones with routes built in, you do not have add anything extra.

I think there are advantages to doing the routes this way anyway. If you upgrade your command station, you do not have to re-program your routes. The DS64's also have pushbutton inputs that can trigger the routes, with NCE if you want to trigger routes with pushbuttons, then you do have to use an additional device, such as the Mini Panel. Having the routes stored in the stationary decoder is also convenient for modular layouts.


First, if you have

 

[jwils1]

Whether or not you need an additional device to do routes with the Zephyr depends on the stationary decoders you use, because the Digitrax DS64 has routes built in. Since you have to have stationary decoders to do routes anyway, if you get ones with routes built in, you do not have add anything extra.

That's correct but in my case I already had installed Lenz LS150 stationary decoders because they were less expensive. Now I wish I had gone with the DS64s to start with. But the more I use turnout control with the Zephyr I'm not sure I need to even go to route control as the Digitrax method works so well for me, even from the Zephyr unit or from the DT400 throttle.

Jerry

 

[RexHea]

As said, many of our posts are biased on personal preference more than technical differences that actually affect the overall quality and functionality of the system. Both of these subject companies are excellent, in design and reputation. Is it not like putting a $5 bill in your left hand and $5 in change in the right....which one is more valuable?

You know, guys, this goes on and on when the advice to a buyer is simple and has been written in many ways: Write down what you want to accomplish with your operation; look at the capabilities and functions of the most reputable brands; match their specs to your list, and choose. If all qualify, choose the one you favor, is in your price range, and is most popular in your area. No rhetoric, just plain and simple!

 

[Joe Daddy]

Easy now

"Try facts instead of rants" - I'd like to see one fact that makes the DT400 "rein supreme in 'geekiness.'"

You said DT400, I said DT (Digitrax). Actually, when I made the "GEEKINESS" comment, it was intended as a compliment. From what I can see and read, DT has the most sophisticated set of 'neat toys' like signaling, transponding and it is (or was the last time I looked) the only DCC system that supports the RPS (model railroad GPS) systems. Nor, did I intend to infer 'geekiness' to any one person, but about the technology. If someone has their personal identity wrapped around a product, well, that is unfortunate. Although, it has been my experience that many DT owners are a mite passionate. (But then, hey, I'm still a Chevy guy even with the sorry state of affairs in Detroit.)

And no one can just assert to me that all systems are equally easy to use. That is just not true. Ease of use is a personal thing, something I guess I supposed everyone agreed to.

Personally I find my NCE PROCAB R harder to use than my Lenz Set 100. How can that be, you say, well the Function keys are easier to use on the Set 100, just try to figure out if function 8 or 12 is set on or off in Radio mode. I like to never have figured out how power sequencing worked. (I learned these things in lone wolf mode, not in a club somewhere. It was hard for me to figure out some of these things from the manual.) And there is no provision for EPO like the Lenz. EPO = Emergency Power Off.

And I find the NCE PROCAB to be much easier to use than the full functioned DT400R radio, the one you have to plug in to recapture your loco when it runs away from you, which has happened to me 5 of the 6 times I've run with DT on different layouts. Then there are the ergonomics. I personally don't like knobs for throttles, it has two dinky ones and the small buttons are a pain to use. Just my opinion, mind you.

So, why did I keep my ProCab Radio? Three reasons:
1 - The computer interface is more compatible with my CTI system than the latest version of the Lenz code. To keep the Lenz, I would have had to down grade my system which did not make any sense to me.
2 - I like a radio throttle, with the Lenz, I had 5 tethered ones on my layout, with the NCE, I only use one. (I have a second when a friend comes over to run, otherwise I don't need the second one.)
3 - With the Lenz if you want Radio, it means either cordless phones, not my up of java, or CVP.

I found the latest and greatest CVP, the T9000E, to be the most contrary and difficult throttle I've ever used. Here are the reasons (facts):
1 - While range was fine, I could never remember all key sequences to do things with out carrying around the book.
2 - The insta reverse button on the rotary knob was a pain in the neck.
3 - As I mentioned before, I did not like knobs anyway and that one was simply awful, it also had this free wheeling (no pot limits) 'feature' that bugged the dickens out of me whenever I changed locos.

If you have red this far, you might have noticed that I have non-trivial issues with all of them, for one reason or another. None of them is perfect, each their own idiosyncrasies. Of the three systems I've used, I rate them this way on a 1 is awful and 10 is perfect scale:

Lenz 8
NCE 8
Digitrax 6
CVP 5

If or when Lenz offers a fully integrated Radio throttle, simplex or duplex, I'll probably revert back. Lenz service and German quality is awesome.

I think I'll run some trains before trundling off to bed!

 

[jwils1]

You said DT400, I said DT (Digitrax). Actually, when I made the "GEEKINESS" comment, it was intended as a compliment. From what I can see and read, DT has the most sophisticated set of 'neat toys' like signaling, transponding and it is (or was the last time I looked) the only DCC system that supports the RPS (model railroad GPS) systems. Nor, did I intend to infer 'geekiness' to any one person, but about the technology. If someone has their personal identity wrapped around a product, well, that is unfortunate. Although, it has been my experience that many DT owners are a mite passionate. (But then, hey, I'm still a Chevy guy even with the sorry state of affairs in Detroit.)

Unfortunately I think geekiness is more often than not a negative reference to someone or something. Here is one definition that I found:

geek  Slang.
–noun 1. a peculiar or otherwise dislikable person, esp. one who is perceived to be overly intellectual.
2. a computer expert or enthusiast (a term of pride as self-reference, but often considered offensive when used by outsiders.)
3. a carnival performer who performs sensationally morbid or disgusting acts, as biting off the head of a live chicken.

I personally admire geeks (definition #2 above) and wish I had their abilities.

Big Daddy, your post just shows again how different we all are, and that's good, and what makes this world such an intersting place. In many respects I find my views totally opposite to yours. But then I don't have your experience and ability. I do respect you, but respectfully disagree in some areas, but maybe my needs and abilities are just more simplistic?

Following are the systems that I've used on my home layout and how I would rate that them based on my needs, likes and dislikes:

Digitrax-R 9
MRC Wireless 8
NCE-R 7
CVP radio thottle T9000E 6.5
Lenz 6
Atlas Commander 2

I would rate Digitrax-R a 10 but nobody would believe me. But, when their duplex radio is available I'm sure it will be a 10 (maybe even 11!!)

Giving Digitrax-R and NCE-R a side by side test on my layout, I frequently and consistently gave NCE a thorough test and workout. But every time I forced my self to use it I found myself strongly wanting to put it down and pick up my DT400R. And it wasn't radio performance or system capabiliy that was the problem. It was ergonomics and ease of use. That smaller, more compact and lighter weight DT400R is just a dream for me to use. Sure, duplex radio is so much better than simplex, but even with that difference I would rather use the DT400R.

Jerry

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[stationmaster]

When I bought my DigiTrax Super Chief, I had four manufacturers in mind., Prodigy, NCE, Lentz(2 units), and DigiTrax(4 units). I tried them all. Wrote down what performance I wanted and expectations I had. I actually came down to two manufacturers, Lentz and Digitrax, with the Zephyr being quickly eliminated.

The Digitrax had a bad reputation of not being user friendly during the programming stage. I found that to be a matter of familiarity.

Lentz has had some issues with their decoders, also. I've "fried" my fair share(6). All were under warranty, so, no out of pocket replacement cost other than shipping. The DigiTrax decoder I fried was my fault. Bad isolation of the motor on a Blue Box.

Bob