NCE Power Pro or Digitrax Super Chief??

[kbkchooch]

Comparing the 78 page Digitrax decoder manual with the 8 pages of information that comes with an NCE decoder is a little misleading. The Digitrax decoder manual includes additional information on the LT1 decoder tester, the PR1 programmer, selecting a decoder, information on the different programming modes, a trouble shooting section, and setting up a layout for transponding. Digitrax does give you actual examples of setups you might actually want to create, but they also give you a lot of additional information. As an example, the information included with an NCE decoder has a chart of the 8 most common values for CV29 and says add one to reverse the direction of travel. The Digitrax decoder manual explains CV29(what are the different addressing modes, what are speed steps, what is analog conversion) and gives a chart listing all 32 allowed values for CV29 and what each one means. The Digitrax manual also covers Bemf compensation and driving an AC motor, two things not available on NCE decoders.

This is almost going to kill me to say this, (being an NCE user) but NCE also has a ponderous manual of it own. However, since getting my system in August of 2000, I can say that I believe I (after the initial reading) have only opened it up once or twice, and that was to try to diagnose some issues that turned out to be decoder related. Guess whos? DH???) Using the NCE "hammerhead" pretty much negates having to check any printed material for common programming, and any specialty programming (ditch lights,strobes,speed tables, or sound levels) is actually easier to do on the PC with Decoder Pro.
Yeah, we don't need no stinkin mauals! Vamanos!

 

[el3637]

However, since getting my system in August of 2000, I can say that I believe I (after the initial reading) have only opened it up once or twice

That's the best endorsement of the NCE system I've read yet. I can say the same of mine. I can also say that I haven't looked at the owners manual of my car very often. I used it to look up the oil and oil filter type, and find out how to set the @#^%# clock. But I've never had to use the manual to get to work in the morning. That's as it should be.

Andy

 

[el3637]

The DT400 was first available in 2001 and quickly became the standard Digitrax throttle. After that time, you would not get a DT300 unless you specifically wanted it(and the DT300 is vastly superior to the DT100). They only kept it available as long as they did for people who wanted a smaller form factor full function throttle(I don't think any other manufacturer has made a full function throttle that was as compact as the DT300). It was finally discontinued as of 10-07-05.

I didn't know that... my mistake.

The DT400 is the most important thing Digitrax ever did. It *IS* far more intuitive and in fact, if you can use an NCE hammerhead, a DT400 will feel somewhat familiar. Even for programming.

Yes, the DT100 has to be in the right mode to select 4 digit addresses, but you made it sound like it coudn't select 4 digit addresses at all(you refered to one of the DT100's three main flaws as "lack of 4-digit selection by knob") and I was pointing out that you can.

Lots of things get to be an order of magnitude more difficult on the DT100 when you try to do it with 4 digits instead of 2. It was possible to run more than 640K worth of programs with MS-DOS too, but it wasn't very much fun.

I never said there was anything simple about building a consist of 4 digit addresses on the DT100, I simply pointed out that the step-by-step is there in the manual and it is(no, they didn't repeat the steps of selecting a 4 digit, but that would have been a little redundant since it is in the same manual just a few pages before).

Well like I said, over the years I repeatedly challenged someone to produce ALL of the steps in order, as per the NCE/Wangrow example that I gave, and there were no takers. Perhaps the people who knew how to do it already felt it was too obvious, or just didn't want to take the time, who knows. I

The "philosophy" that brought about the DT100 had less to do with being "fiddly and geeky," but more with trying to keep costs down

Exactly. And even though the DT400 is dead I feel that this philosophy lives on in other parts of the system; doing a docs rewrite is costly especially when most of the inside people don't believe it's necessary. Digitrax fans also will frequently recommend 3rd party publications. I believe one of them is actually called _DCC For Dummies_. I've always found it amusing and very telling that a publisher has had such great success with a whole series of books that insults the reader before they've even opened the cover. I know, tongue in cheek and all and I suppose I've even referred to myself as a dummy when I was extremely frustrated with something. But when I'm on the other side of the fence and trying to explain something and the person says, "you gotta understand I'm a dummy about stuff like this", it's sooo tempting to say "Well there ya go! See ya..." I don't believe in treating people that way, nor do I think people should treat *themselves* that way. When I enter into a technical discussion, either as the one needing help or the one trying to help, I try to do it in good faith and assume my counterpart is doing the same. I don't think one is a dummy for wanting to be able to accomplish something with a product he bought, without having to understand every aspect beginning with the designer's philosophy on cost savings or the history of semiconductors.

Digitrax is successful for a number of reasons. They were first to market with a complete, advanced system at a price point well below the competition. They did lots of shows, clinics, spent a lot on marketing. They have a catchy name - maybe even THE catchy name for a DCC system. Fairly early on, the system's "power users" or what the heck, let's just call 'em geeks, were doing clinics and writing books. As several have mentioned, there are "Digitrax towns" where there is a knowledge base and it seems like everybody that uses DCC uses Digitrax. If you belong to any club or just hang out with friends using Digitrax, it's going to be an easy move to go with it yourself. That's why I hung on to one DT400R throttle.

If not for NCE, I would use Digitrax. And I'd probably be the supreme pain over on the Digitrax forum. I don't think I have posted there in 3 years since I sold my system. But I'm really really glad NCE is out there and that they have kept their system lean, mean, and clean and that they really got their radio working right. IMO there's a little more to do there, but they've solved 99% of the problems.

Andy

 

[CBCNSfan]

Personally Willis, I'd have to ask you what system your buds use. That should be the number 1 consideration. As was stated earlier, use what the most people in your area uses, as you'll have a built in troubleshooting base if needed. That's why my first purchase was DT. However, I've never needed it. And neither has anyone else I know of around here either.

Hi Carey, like I posted, afraid I'm sort of a lonesome polecat, no buds into model rail so guess I belong to the mushroom club so #1 consideration wont apply in my case. There are a few around but I don't know of any who have DCC. A few years back I went to a MR show, asked about each club's DCC. All except one club were forth coming with info and demos for me. Two clubs had DT (one was having problems) the rest were doing their own thing. Can't remember it all, but one club was using telephone handsets as throttles (wireless, kind of neat)
The DT looked kind of neat but I was unable to get much info on it.
Talked to a seller, he claimed NCE was the way to go the rest were junk (that was kind of hard to believe)

The only recommendation I will make, is to be sure to test all locos, especically if you own some early P2K passenger units. Many came with motors that draw even more current than older BB's. If the stall current is more than 1amp, the motor needs replacing. I also want to add that not all BB motors are "amp hogs". I used to own an Athearn, GP-30. That loco was so broke in it drew less amps than a can motor!

Other than the steamers (mostly Bachmann) the largest being a 2-10-4, just about all the diesel are newer type Athearn BB a couple RTR and a Trainline GP9. I do have some older Bachmann, Life Like (toys) but when rebuilt will be running on modified Athearn chassis.

How do you check the "Stall Current" ?

Cheers
Willis

 

[CBCNSfan]

I thought it would be good idea to have such a poll...I will try to come up with a list that will show all availble sets etc...give me a day or 2 and I will send it your way. You are more than welcome to add or change it etc...

LOL no I wont be changing it so whenever you're ready send it on

As for your BB Athearns there is really no need to upgrade the power. I run a lot of BB Athearns with DCC with no problems. Granted some of them have been through the re-build for de-burring the gears, lubrication and hard wiring.
Other than that you shouldn't feel like you have to change out the power (motors).

That's good news. As each loco is(re built, bashed whatever) I strip it all down and de-burr all the gears and moving parts. Throw away those useless rubber motor mounts and use screws and plastic strips cemented to the frame. Hard wire all the electrical connections including the motor connection to the chassis, so they run pretty smooth and quiet. Of course I'm some what deaf and that helps too

A side note I use the Zephyr, DT400IR, UR91 and PR3 with Decoder Pro(JMRI).

Buddy, believe me I have no idea of what that is but I'll look it up online.

Cheers
Willis

PS: Does any one know if the hand set (throttle) on the MRC's Prodigy Express can be disconnected and moved to a different operating location while the train is running?

 

[Cjcrescent]

Hi Carey...

How do you check the "Stall Current" ?

Cheers
Willis

This is easiest done on a test track.

To check the stall current, you need a multimeter. Set the meter to read amps, and if it is digital, its lowest range of amps. Insert the meter into the circuit with one lead going from the power pack to the meter, and the other lead to the track. The other power lead from the pack goes straight to the track.

Set a loco on the track, set the speed to full, and hold the loco. Make sure the meter is on.Turn the power on the pack. Press down on the loco just hard enough to prevent the motor from turning. Read the amps generated at that point and then either turn the power off, or lift the loco off the track. The amp reading you got is the stall current.

IMPORTANT!

Don't stall the loco for more than 10-15 secs as this can damage the motor if done for too long.

Attached is a crude drawing to show the setup.

 

[CBCNSfan]

Thanks Carey, I figured it was something like that but wanted to be sure before starting the testing.
Cheers
Willis

 

[el3637]

This is easiest done on a test track.
To check the stall current, you need a multimeter. Set the meter to read amps, and if it is digital, its lowest range of amps. Insert the meter into the circuit with one lead going from the power pack to the meter, and the other lead to the track. The other power lead from the pack goes straight to the track.

Is there any way to do this under DCC? I know it would require isolating the stretch of track - or I could use my bench system. But I don't think I could just stick a meter in series with the track leads as I could with DC. I have some older Proto locos that I suspect of pulling a lot of current but I really have no way to measure it if they are already DCC.

Andy

 

[Cjcrescent]

Andy;

Mr Deagon is one of the older members of the MR fraternity here in B'ham. He does have one of the largest layouts in the area and it's got great scenery. The structures on it are fantastic, and completely scratchbuilt. His trackwork is 100% handlaid. Overall, he's one of the finest modelers I know.

It also has one problem. It was wired by him.
As to anything electronic, he is "challenged" to say the least. To make his wiring more efficient, and to cut down on gaps, when he first wired the layout for DC, instead of using the proper number of gaps, he just gapped one rail on the siding and one gap on the main, on oposite ends of the siding. He was not using common rail wiring either. (See drawing) This type of wiring was used throughout the layout. The only places where he would use "proper wiring" techniques, were on his turntables, and reversing loops. He also installed a 12amp power supply going through a heavy duty rectifier as layout power. He used large rotary switches to choose cabs and had 7 cabs. One for each yard, and 5 for the mains.

When Dynatrol was released by PSI back in the 80's, he got their most powerful system, which was rated at 5 amps. The recievers for the system, ask they were called, didnot have any internal protection for shorts. At that point he installed 5amp very slo-blow circuit breakers between the power supply and rectifier. There were no other breakers of lower amperage for the track used.

Due to the rail being improperly gapped, when someone would come over to operate, if there was a train improperly parked at the wrong spot a short would develop. The short would not be powerful enough to trip those 5 amp breakers. When things like parking a loco across a gap, or a string of cars with metal bottoms and trucks was parked the same way. Interesting problems would occur. I mentioned he melted a GP-18 from P2K. One of our club members actually welded a string of Ulrich metal hoppers to the rails because of this! Occasionally the circuit breakers would throw, but not often.

If he would have taken the time to wire his layout properly, he would have had NO problem installing the NCE at all I believe. Our club even was willing to do this for him but he refused.

Deagon is a very nice guy, friendly almost to a fault, but he absolutely refuses to listen to any advice when it comes to Model Railroading.

 

[Cjcrescent]

Is there any way to do this under DCC? I know it would require isolating the stretch of track - or I could use my bench system. But I don't think I could just stick a meter in series with the track leads as I could with DC. I have some older Proto locos that I suspect of pulling a lot of current but I really have no way to measure it if they are already DCC.

Andy

I don't know of anyway under DCC, either. I think that the danger of blowing a decoder would be too great. That, I guess, is why all the literature I've read on DCC installations all say do this under DC.

I understand what you mean about manuals. I hate reading them as well. I haven't looked at my manuals for my SC since I read enough of it to set it up. I run steam, have very few diesels so I don't consist that often, and although I read the section about programming with my DT400, I use DP for all programming.

 

[CSX Robert]

Is there any way to do this under DCC? I know it would require isolating the stretch of track - or I could use my bench system. But I don't think I could just stick a meter in series with the track leads as I could with DC. I have some older Proto locos that I suspect of pulling a lot of current but I really have no way to measure it if they are already DCC.

Andy

There are several ways to do this.

One way is a really neat feature of the Power Cab, you can have it show the track current(it's in the section on setting up cab parameters).

You can enable analog conversion in the decoder and use a DC test track.

You can use an RRampMeter.

You can use this circuit:

 

[Cjcrescent]

There are several ways to do this.

One way is a really neat feature of the Power Cab, you can have it show the track current(it's in the section on setting up cab parameters).

You can enable analog conversion in the decoder and use a DC test track.

You can use an RRampMeter.

...

I would still be hesitant to do it even with a RRampMeter. Most decoders are 1.5 amp peak, and that's only for a real short amount of time. If stall current is over that the chance of blowing a decoder goes way up.

At $12 bucks a shot for the cheapest, I'd rather not take the chance.

Neat circuits by the way.

 

[Cjcrescent]

That's the best endorsement of the NCE system I've read yet. I can say the same of mine. I can also say that I haven't looked at the owners manual of my car very often. I used it to look up the oil and oil filter type, and find out how to set the @#^%# clock. But I've never had to use the manual to get to work in the morning. That's as it should be.

Andy

Andy as I said earlier, Except for reading my SC manual for set up and reading how to program with it, I haven't touched mine either.

Right now, about all I can tell you about it is, it's somewhere downstairs.

 

[RexHea]

I don't think I've opened my Digitrax manuals for anything other than looking up an Op Switch number to make a change on my throttle control or clear the command module's address stack.

Personally, I don't put much emphasis on stall current. Mostly, it is a safety factor based on the most extreme operating condition before the motor or ancillary components could begin to fail. But, let's think about it:
In actual practice, you would have to be running at full throttle, the train suddenly blocked, the wheels locked up and unable to turn, and you let it sit there without cutting power. How often does that happened. If all of this occurred with a lower setting on the throttle, then it would be unlikely to cause damage; not any different that a throttle setting that is not high enough to move a load.

I believe the total current needed for maximum running speed and under a maximum, but normal load is much more realistic.

 

[el3637]

I forgot about the PowerCab ammeter function. But I wouldn't want to try the hard stall thing anyway with a decoder in the loop. The only loco I have that will stall before it slips is a Spectrum N&W J... the first Spectrum run from about 2000(?). I gutted and rewired the whole thing, and added some weight, and now it will stall before it slips. It's not THAT heavy, which means the motor is a low-torque piece of junk (no surprise). So I haven't done anything with it lately, I need to replace the motor. I suppose several different motors would fit but it has a large fat worm on the shaft and I need to make sure I can get it off and that it will fit the new motor shaft.

Andy

 

[ThoroughBreed]

Cheers
Willis

PS: Does any one know if the hand set (throttle) on the MRC's Prodigy Express can be disconnected and moved to a different operating location while the train is running?

Yes, the throttle can be unplugged and moved to another port. I use straight cat5 cable and ports for my system, with the longest run away from the base at 25' with no lag. You can also use a second or third throttle to acquire a loco or consist from another throttle just as easy.

 

[CBCNSfan]

Yes, the throttle can be unplugged and moved to another port.

Thanks TB, I guess that seals my decision then as the NCE cannot be disconected without interruption. That is a function I must have since the (new) room will be 30 ft long. Layout wont be that long, have to leave a little room for my wine cellar

Cheers
Willis

 

[el3637]

Thanks TB, I guess that seals my decision then as the NCE cannot be disconected without interruption.

This is true of the NCE PowerCab starter system. The regular Pro system you can move tethered throttles at any time. At this moment my radio throttle has powered itself off to save battery... the train is still running. When I turn the throttle back on, it will remember where everything is and I'll be able to control my train as if it had been on all the time.

The reason the PowerCab can't do this is because the "brains" of the system are inside the PowerCab throttle, so if it's unplugged, it's the same as killing the power. The PowerCab can support an additional throttle however, and that throttle can be moved, plugged / unplugged no problem.

Andy

 

[CBCNSfan]

The PowerCab can support an additional throttle however, and that throttle can be moved, plugged / unplugged no problem.

Thanks Andy, yes I was aware of that and if it was a choice between the Prodigy Advance2 and the NCE pro system I believe I'd be going with NCE. However the $$ outlay for decoders is a determining factor for my choice (at this time, I've been known to change horses in mid stream). So for now it has to be a starter set. Some thing I'm mulling over for now
1) If I had to add another throttle to the NCE then the price really exceeds the MRC Exp.
2) If I added an Prod. Advance throttle to the MRC Exp, (a little more cost) I'd have all the bells and whistles of the Advance.
Haven't costed ($$) this all out yet, and I have to get an ides of what decoder would be best for Athearn BB locos and some Bachmann steamers. Most of these are from back in the 70's to 90's. Haven't counted the locos yet but I know it will be more than 20.

Cheers
Willis

 

[ThoroughBreed]

I have 2 advance throttles in my posession, one came with the unit and the other I got from the LHS for $65 about 6 months ago. The second throttle came with a 8' cord as the original only had a 6' cord. I have a friend from another forum that lives 45 miles away and he comes down every other month to run some locos around with me, and he has a express, and brings his throttle and plugs it in and uses it or uses one of my advance throttles, but they all can be plugged in at the same time, or they all can be disconnected and everything still runs.
If you can afford the advance2, get it instead as it has more power right off the bat, or if you want to wait, you can upgrade the power later on with a 3.5 amp, 8 amp or the new 10 amp boosters. I know where you can get the 8 amp for about $120, so let me know.
At least the express has 16 functions avail out of the box, so that will take care of the bells and whistles you get with sound decoders.
As fro decoders for the BB athearns, use the NCE D13SRJ's and hardwire them in, and if one goes bad, you can just unplug the decoder and send it in. The D13SRJ's can be had by the 4 pack for about $50-60, and they are four function decoders, so they support front, rear, and 2 ditch lights or whatever other 2 functions you want to assign to them.