My poor track laying causing derailments, any fix?

[Jacob Z]

Its hard to tell, but in the second photo of post #34 where the two pieces of track come together it is not in a rail joiner. It appears the one on the right is on top of the joiner giving you a sharp bump.

I'll take a close look later this morning when I'm more awake.

I just noticed something that may be causing you some grief - The track nails are too close to the join, I'll bet you put them there on purpose to hold things in line. The problem is - they are pushing the track down and making a "dip" at the join (at least, from what I can see in the photo).

Yep, that's exactly what I did. I feel like I'm making things worse, not better.

Cut and remove 6" of one of the tracks. Cut a new section to exact length and put it in. More fun than fixing 1/4 inch...

If I do that, I'll remove at least enough that the next join is on the tangent track, not the curve. But at that point I'm thinking it is better to remove the whole section.

Looking at the time line, it appears that you have not been able to apply the advice about soldering. It's not rocket science, but it always goes badly if certain basic principles are not followed. I strongly suggest taking some time away from the layout to research it, and take a bunch of junk track and practice on it.

Believe me, I've watched hours of video, and done lots of practice. It's a skill problem, not a knowledge (or tools) problem. I'm just really, really bad at doing fine work with my hands (and not just soldering). On the plus side, I'm getting lots of practice at desoldering :-(

Also to follow some comments above about the joiners, I hope you are feeding the curve at both ends.

I am. And I have been testing for continuity with every piece of track I lay before going on to the next.

 

[Jacob Z]

OK, I'm at the point of biting the bullet and tearing up the track from that join all the way to the next one. Any suggestions on technique for getting an exact fit this time? I'm worried about getting a good fit between two existing pieces of track. Here's what I'm thinking so far, corrections, additions, and deletions welcome.

- pull up the entire length of track between the two joins (rather than just a few inches, which introduces another join which is another potential problem)
- detach a few inches of the curved track before the problem join too so that I can lay down a smooth curve
- solder (neatly) the new track to the existing
- lay a smooth curve (I have Tracksettas)
- at the other end, where the tangent tracks meet, bring the new track into position; mark where to cut; cut slightly too long, then file down to a precise fit.
- Glue or nail in place? Or both?
- DO NOT BALLAST for several months until satisfied that everything is good.

 

[Jacob Z]

You have to go through the mistakes unfortunately. It's very much a hands on learning thing.

I mentioned in an earlier comment, I think I have made every mistake possible. Despite watching tons of video before I started, it really does seem that it's only possible to learn some things by doing them - and in some cases by doing them wrong until I do them right. And I'm documenting it all in my "diary" thread, in the hope other people learn from it. (A recap of this experience will go in there once I get everything fixed.)

Honestly, there are days where I feel like I'm not building a model railroad, I'm building a really expensive diorama, and if trains ever run on it, that will be a bonus. But I'm not giving up.

And because this thread needs something upbeat, here are some cows and horses:

 

[diesel]

Well, your scenicking is way beyond anything I've done yet. So you have that in the bag. The bright side of building a really expensive diorama, is that you end up with a really good diorama. Well at least, if you also put a lot of time into it. It would be lonely without trains, but also it enhances greatly, any realism and atmosphere you imbue in the trains. What is sort of dated, but it had so much timeless stuff in it, is Paul Mallory's book on trackwork. Most of what I know comes from it.

 

[Jacob Z]

Its hard to tell, but in the second photo of post #34 where the two pieces of track come together it is not in a rail joiner. It appears the one on the right is on top of the joiner giving you a sharp bump.

I too noticed that neither of those rails is in the joiner on the right side piece.

I took a look under a bright light and magnifying glass, and actually they are OK although I understand why they don't look it. This is Peco code 55 track. It has not one foot, but two, so that it can connect to Peco code 80 track. The upper foot is above the sleepers to create the appearance of low profile rails. The lower foot is "buried" into the sleepers, so that the whole rail is the same height as code 80. The joiner goes on to the lower foot and then it looks as though the track has gone over the joiner because there is nothing on the upper foot. These pictures might make this clearer.

(This is a bit academic, because I'm pulling it up anyway!)

 

[diesel]

Now I'm wondering, what is the roadbed made of?

If you don't want to do the staggered joins, you should still make the fixed rail join before bending. But you'll find, since both sliding rails have surplus on the ends since they are the inside rail, the location where they meet is a little flexible, so the stagger doesn't really have any added complexity. At least, not when doing it that way, prior to installation. Again, it really helps with counteracting the tension force that wants the curve ends to:

1. straighten out
2. meet at an angle.

Actually, I sometimes cut my joiners shorter for curve joins, so the straight part that's formed by the join, isn't so long.

 

[Jacob Z]

Now I'm wondering, what is the roadbed made of?

Woodland Scenics track-bed. Although when I (eventually) attempt another layout, I might well skip it. It does give a more realistic height to the ballast, but it makes ballasting even more of a chore than it already is. (Underneath is an inch of insulating foam and then plywood.)

 

[diesel]

Naw, I think roadbed is important. I've settled on wood strips, it doesn't matter what it is, but it gives the ballast some realism. If it's tedious to ballast, it might just be too tall. I will have to Google Woodland Scenics track bed because I don't know what it is.

There were some comments about the track being not inside the joiner and unless I'm mistaken you aren't seeing it. So I highlighted it:

 

[RhB Michael]

IIRC, WS trackbed is a firm, closed-cell foam.

 

[diesel]

IMO track nails aren't worth the potential trouble. If they are too low, they bend the tie and dip the track. Too high, and they can hit uncoupling levers and such. Either glue, or pin and ballast in place, are far safer.

The thing about it all, since everything is 87 times smaller, every mechanical problem is 87 times bigger than IRL.

 

[ctclibby]

Naw, I think roadbed is important. I've settled on wood strips, it doesn't matter what it is, but it gives the ballast some realism. If it's tedious to ballast, it might just be too tall. I will have to Google Woodland Scenics track bed because I don't know what it is.

There were some comments about the track being not inside the joiner and unless I'm mistaken you aren't seeing it. So I highlighted it:View attachment 240197

Late to the party here. With my eyesight ( ya, what is left ) I have found if I use a single truck to roll around I can feel the 'bump' when crossing joints and know ... Woops; then go find the magnifier headset.

Others have stated: fix it now and run trains, many trains both one direction, then the other. If that is good for awhile, ballast....

L8r

 

[Jacob Z]

IMO track nails aren't worth the potential trouble. If they are too low, they bend the tie and dip the track. Too high, and they can hit uncoupling levers and such. Either glue, or pin and ballast in place, are far safer.

The thing about it all, since everything is 87 times smaller, every mechanical problem is 87 times bigger than IRL.

Or 160 times, since I'm in N scale

 

[Jacob Z]

If you don't want to do the staggered joins, you should still make the fixed rail join before bending. But you'll find, since both sliding rails have surplus on the ends since they are the inside rail, the location where they meet is a little flexible, so the stagger doesn't really have any added complexity. At least, not when doing it that way, prior to installation.

How much do you stagger by? I read one post that said as little as a 1/4", others say by several ties. And I'm having a hard time picturing how the ties work. Do you slide the longer rail into the other rail's ties? And if so, how do you get a joiner in there?

ETA: If I do this, I'm going to practice it on some scrap pieces of track before attempting it "in production" (as we used to say in the IT world).

 

[migalyto]

I took a look under a bright light and magnifying glass, and actually they are OK although I understand why they don't look it. This is Peco code 55 track. It has not one foot, but two, so that it can connect to Peco code 80 track. The upper foot is above the sleepers to create the appearance of low profile rails. The lower foot is "buried" into the sleepers, so that the whole rail is the same height as code 80. The joiner goes on to the lower foot and then it looks as though the track has gone over the joiner because there is nothing on the upper foot. These pictures might make this clearer.

Ok, I now see what you mean. It looks like Peco buried the track deeper in the ties.

(This is a bit academic, because I'm pulling it up anyway!)

I think by doing this you will be much happier in the end.

Many of us have been in this situation so your not alone!

 

[BasketballRick]

Well Jacob, it's pretty cool that you were willing to expose your mistake and suffer the consequences on this Forum.

The partial photos of your layout fooled me as I can usually recognize N scale. You've obviously done a lot of impressive work on the layout up to this point and so I think you will view the somewhat heart rendering chore of ripping out fully sceniked track in a much more favourable light after you have finished your repair job.

I'm old, on my third layout and have recently ripped out an entire section due to a some unfortunate benchwork warping. Why do I seem to always learn the hard way? The silver lining is that this section was the last part of code 100 area and now I will be able to convert it to code 83.
In your case if it was me in your situation, I'd probably go the thin piece of styrene glue fix. It's always worked for me and I still have two instances of it on my layout. I paint my rail and damned if I can even find those two spots now. The trains run over both areas just fine.

Keep up the good work. I'm in Canada so end up doing a lot more model railroading during the winter months and a whole lot less during the summertime. Take Care.

Rick

 

[Jacob Z]

Welp, I ripped it up, just short of 3ft of track. And I already feel better (the people who said "rip it out" were right; trying to fix it was always going to be beyond my capabilities for fine work.)

Cleanup in progress, not too much damage to the surrounding scenicking:

And I cut and filed the new piece to length, and did a test fit. Here are the gaps on the curve and at the other end on the tangent. I think I can close up the tangent a bit more if I ease the curve in just a tad, although it's already too small to insert my fingernail. And yes, my soldering is still a bit naff. (And yes, I melted a tie, I'll need to fix that too). Once everything is glued down solidly, I might wick away some of the solder, but I don't want to touch anything at this point.

 

[Jacob Z]

Well Jacob, it's pretty cool that you were willing to expose your mistake and suffer the consequences on this Forum.

Thank you, everybody has been really helpful and I've learned a lot, and that kind of thing only happens if one is willing to admit to a mistake and ask for help. If I hadn't, I probably still be futzing around trying to fill the gap with blobs of solder...

 

[diesel]

Or 160 times, since I'm in N scale

Geez, I need new glasses.

 

[diesel]

another thing that doesn't hurt - dressing the join with a jewelers file to smooth out any edges. The work in the photos looks good though. Doubt you'll see derailments due to that any more. Outside of the rail doesn't matter, inside needs to clear the flanges.

 

[diesel]

Thank you, everybody has been really helpful and I've learned a lot, and that kind of thing only happens if one is willing to admit to a mistake and ask for help. If I hadn't, I probably still be futzing around trying to fill the gap with blobs of solder...

Actually I have filled gaps with solder. Just not big ones.