Dynamic Scenery

[tootnkumin]

Hi, and thanks for your honestly. That goes a long way towards explaining the hostility from another poster, and
possibly why my posts don't seem to get approved now. With this kind of policy nothing new has a chance.

Rich

First let me say that there is no "policy" going on here, neither by myself, any of the other posters or the management of this forum.

What interests me though is I remembered that I commented in post#9 that I had read you telling about having something working on a club layout at a show and went to find your statement. Found it on your website here
[h=2]Coming Soon!
Crossing Gate Kit with Track Detectors and Flashers[/h]We showed a working model of this one at a swap meet in Indy a couple of weeks ago. (Many thanks to Nelson and Justin of the Naptown & White River Model Railroad Club for inviting us.)
We’ve had this running on a continuous loop for a couple of weeks now and it hasn’t shown any signs of wear. We’re working now to consolidate the software into one package so we’ll have the track sensors, flasher, and crossing gates all in one package for the $20 range.
This is another do-it-yourself kit. It looks pretty smooth, like Cadillac performance on a Yugo budget. (You thought I’d say Ford, didn’t you?) We’re using a stepper motor with a gearbox, not one of those solenoid gizmo’s using inverse viscosity grease. It’s easily strong enough to raise a drawbridge, we’ve measured it pulling at well over a pound at the shaft circumference.
Especially attractive about this design is that you can reach out and raise or lower the gates with your finger without harming the mechanism. Don’t try that with the $150 ones! Oh yeah, this’ll control more than one gate….. you can easily hook it up to a half dozen or more. (Of course, they’ll all go up and down together.)
Stay tuned, it won’t be long before it’ll be ready. The motor supply is limited, if you’re interested we could put you on our waiting list and we’ll let you know as soon as it’s ready.


and in p#9 I suggested that a video posted here would be helpful. I would find it strange that no-one including yourself took either pics or a video for promotional purposes.
Are you going to try to tell us you didn't do so, but if you did, then where is it?

 

[GenSet]

It's weird to me that people ask for feedback, then get their knickers in a twist if it's not a 100% glowing endorsement.

I have designed and built my own hobby electronics for years, so I know exactly what "your circuit is all about" ... no need to "be sorry for me". Unlike you, though, I also have direct experience with model railroading.

But don't worry, I won't bother you with any more reality-based feedback.

 

[Rich_Ros]

First let me say that there is no "policy" going on here, neither by myself, any of the other posters or the management of this forum.

What interests me though is I remembered that I commented in post#9 that I had read you telling about having something working on a club layout at a show and went to find your statement. Found it on your website here
Coming Soon!
Crossing Gate Kit with Track Detectors and Flashers <<Snip>>

Hi Toots (Isn’t that what Tutankhamun’s friends called him?

I’m sorry that I didn’t pick up on an earlier reference to my having publicly shown the
Crossing Gate project, and still haven’t found it. Yes, it’s real and it’s still working, but
hasn’t been tested in a real layout. That’s my problem, I can’t get any of these projects
reviewed. I refuse to pay somebody to accept the fruits of my labor! I can’t even get
a review of my Flasher and until I do I will not release any other products.

In the case of the Crossing Gate I have taken pictures of the mechanism and even a crude
video but I’m not going to give that away until I get a few user reviews. (‘trailrider’ will
love this one when I show him how to do it above-board.) Why should I give my secrets
away when I can’t sell my motor & circuit? The same applies to the turnout motors
and everything else.

All my projects are micro-processor based. We all know that “To err is human, it takes a
computer to really screw things up.” The lab environment can’t come close to the real
thing. I have no idea what kind of electrical noise is being generated or what to expect
from a DCC control. I’d like to think that the DCC has a constant AC voltage that can
be used to power these kits, but I don’t know if that’s a fact or if I’ll be able to use it. My
biggest worry is that there’s enough transient noise to send the micro off into never-never
land. Yeah, I can enable a watch-dog timer to reset the micro, but that’d be a power-up
re-start and I don’t want to do that. If I need to I can use the micro’s on-board eeprom to
keep track of it’s state, but that’s messy….

I picked a number of parameters out of thin air or from personal preferences. Hugh went
around to see a bunch of real crossing gates, they all seemed to take around 4 seconds to
make their transition. Is that what the modelers want or would they rather speed it up for
their ‘scale time’? Or would they really like to have it adjustable? (It’d only cost a little
more, maybe a quarter, but it’d be that much more wiring. The same with the time
parameters on the flasher.

Long story, but you see why I have to have the reviews. Just telling me that it works isn’t
nearly enough. If I can get a few reviews and respond to all the issues then I have a
chance of getting a magazine review and real exposure. That’s why I’m here asking for
help. There’s only a handful of people here, I’m certainly not here to sell stuff. I’ve
tried giving things away, that doesn’t work. I gave away a dozen and got just one
worthless review, the rest didn’t even say thank you. (Through word-of-mouth they all
worked just fine.)

The Flasher is more than you might expect. It needs some experimentation to learn of
it’s capabilities in a real layout, such as beaming at a shallow angle across the track to
pick any objects in its path. Their review might include picture and videos that we
can share with other users on my web-page. For those that are willing to do a review
of the flasher kit I might be willing to sell them the other kits at the same price. I can’t
make that a commitment for obvious reasons.

To accuse me of selling cheap junk without justification is more than just unfair. To
punish me because someone else stiffed you is also insulting. I’ve only offered to sell
the one kit and I never planned to sell more than I was willing to buy back if they
were unsatisfactory. I won’t release anything else until I get reviews. Is there any other
vendor that comes even close to what I’m offering to members of this group. Read
my posts! Haven’t I pledged to even act as their own resident engineer?

By the way, did you ever hear of a problem with a PayPal purchase? They’re pretty
strict, just one complaint and my account’s frozen! Twice I’ve had to give away a
freebie because the customer said he didn’t get it…. now I have to pay extra to get
a tracking number. Do you see why I can’t sell anything for less than $15?

Thanks for responding and thanks for listening
Rich

 

[Rich_Ros]

It's weird to me that people ask for feedback, then get their knickers in a twist if it's not a 100% glowing endorsement.

I have designed and built my own hobby electronics for years, so I know exactly what "your circuit is all about" ... no need to "be sorry for me". Unlike you, though, I also have direct experience with model railroading.

But don't worry, I won't bother you with any more reality-based feedback.

Hi GenSet;

I'm sorry to have gotten off to a bad start with you. I have no doubt you have experience in
model railroading and in hobby electronics. I don't have a layout, but that doesn't mean I have
no experience.

I grew up real close to railroad tracks in several places. Back in the early 40's I could've thrown
a rock out of my bedroom window and hit a steam engine. Through the early 50's an intersection
of two rail lines bordered the back side of our farm. I had my first model railroad, (Lionel, of course)
in the later forties. I built an N scale layout on a hollow door for my kids in the early 70's and
built my own controller that had PWM control, inertia adjustment and independent brake and
throttle handles. I rigged up track detectors, a scale-time clock, and capacitor discharge turnout
motors. All that was my own design, if any others did it I'd never heard of it.
I started in computers in the late 60's and had my first micro-computer in the mid 70's. I made
a career out of designing embedded micro applications and authored 5 patents. When I retired
in '02 I was carried as a Senior Engineer for a world-wide corporation, although I only worked for
them on retainer. I've done a wide range of products for all kinds of well known companies. If
you drive a GM car, (the real GM cars, not the Government Motors/Chinese stuff) the automatic
transmission controller was probably developed with a dynamic simulator that I made for them.

Do you really know what my "circuit is all about"? Look at the flasher schematic, besides the
micro, LEDs, and sensors, do you see a lot of resistors and capacitors? Yeah, there's a
couple of components there to create a 5 volt regulated supply and a couple more parts to
make a DC supply for those that don't already have a 5 volt supply or even a DC supply.

Otherwise, everything takes place inside the micro. The IR sensor is even compensated
inside the micro. Notice that I'm controlling two lights independently, have you ever seen
that done before? You can't possibly know what my circuit is all about because I'm
apparently the only one that does that!

With your background and experience with this kind of stuff you're exactly the kind of
person I most want to have to do a real and objective evaluation of the kind of stuff
I'm offering. If I didn't believe it was the best thing since sliced bread I wouldn't be
here. If you would put together one of my flasher kits and experiment with it I'm
sure you'd be impressed. I'd love to have you try the reflective type of IR sensor
that I'm working with right now, you can embed it in the cork roadbed between and
just below the level of the ties. It's so sensitive that it even registers the couplers!
And, it even tolerates a 100W lamp 4 foot above the track... We could even make
a 'deluxe' crossing system with 3 or four sensors either side of the crossing and
develop intelligent software that'll even identify a bare switcher parked within the
zone, plus derive the speed of the loco! All of this would be available to the low
priced market.

Why can't we be the best, won't you please join the team?

Rich

 

[rzw0wr]

I think I may have missed something a long the way here.
Rich, If you want to know how your stuff works on a real layout, build one as a test track.
You are selling kits, right, then set the kits up on the track without all the extra stuff needed and show everyone how it works while a train is running.

 

[logandsawman]

I sent a private message and can communicate this way about your idea. Click under notiications on top to read. To send one, if you aren't privy, click on top right where it says " my profile" and select (click) submit private message on the menu on the top left.

In the meantime, I bought your flasher kit and will see what happens. I see my 9v battery system that I use for my streetlights will work with the flashers.

Thanks, lasm

 

[tootnkumin]

Rich, I'm not going to apologise for veiwing you with a degree of suspicion regarding your actual intent on here. You present in a manner that seems contradictory, you say in your first post that you, Quote: "don't want to spend your time in 'Marketing'" End Quote. but you have written long and detailed posts "Marketing" your product in them and trying to interest members in trying them out and giving feedback to you, i.e. doing your research and development virtually gratis. You have also said you don't care if anyone copies your circuits but in your reply to me, you say "Why should I give my secrets away when I can't sell my motor&circuit?". Cake and eat it comes to mind mate. That copied reference regarding showing your gate mechanism I posted was taken directly from your own website, not from any post you made here.

Now, the upshot of all this, I took the liberty of emailing the MRR club you mentioned on your website asking them if they could confirm or not the event you described. This is a copy of the reply I received this morning and I thank them for the courtesy they gave me.

[email protected] ([email protected])
Add to contacts
1:56 AM

To: ray




Hi Ray, thanks for replying. We have had the prototype installed on our layout and it worked fantastic. It is a simple design. Now, I have to say I haven't heard from them in almost a year, so I don't

• 

[email protected]

Wednesday, 8 January 2014 1:56:39 AM

ray

[TD="class: ReadMsgHeaderCol1"]From:
[/TD]

[TD="class: ReadMsgHeaderCol1"]Sent:
[/TD]

[TD="class: ReadMsgHeaderCol1"]To:
[/TD]

Hi Ray, thanks for replying. We have had the prototype installed on our layout and it worked fantastic. It is a simple design. Now, I have to say I haven't heard from them in almost a year, so I don't know what they are upto. There were two gentleman, both older. They seemed sincere in the product they were developing.
I can not endorse there product but can only say it was hard to believe someone hasn't thought of that yet.
Justin and Nelson both are members in good standing at the club.


Rob Wright







I'm going to admit it's not the reply I expected quite frankly, but it does go a long, long way in establishing your bona-fides. NOW RICH, my advice to you is; No matter how rough the pics or how crude the video. GET THEM UP ON HERE. There is a saying on these sorts of forums "Pics, or it didn't happen".

 

[Rich_Ros]

Rich, I'm not going to apologise for veiwing you with a degree of suspicion regarding your actual intent on here. You present in a manner that seems contradictory, you say in your first post that you,

Hi Toots; I really appreciate your having gone that extra mile in contacting the club down in Indy. I've sent them several
emails and they never responded, then the emails started bouncing. This is the first I've heard that they even built it.

On the other hand, I find the degree of suspicion I'm seeing here is incredible. Yes I said I didn't want to be involved
in marketing. This is a good example why. I stand by everything I said. I have no problem with anyone copying my
circuit. All my circuits are simple. The complexity is inside the micro and I won't share the code, why should I? The
crossing gate kit will be a simple circuit driving a motor. There's nothing secret about that, although the
motor control technique is far superior to anyone else's, but I can make that motor
control a gate above board. As soon as I post a picture of it someone will copy it with their own motor and claim
it's their design. As far as pictures and videos, the only thing I will consider posting is that for the flasher circuit. Yes,
I promised that I would start working on it and I will although that's not a high priority for me. Do you really think a
picture or a video of a flashing light would prove a thing? Or are you going to accuse me of hiding a little man under the
table flipping a switch?

How many more times are you going to unjustly accuse me of lying before you start to think you're wrong and issue
an apology. I have never witness this level of hostility in all my life. I'd have dumped this group a long time ago except
I really think that's what you want. I came here in good faith to offer something of value at a really low price and this
is the reception I get. I can forgive the ones that didn't read carefully enough to understand exactly what I'm offering, if
I didn't make myself clear I would hope someone would point that out. That's why I'm here, I'm asking for help. Instead of
jacking the price of model railroading way out of sight I'm trying to bring it down so that the hobby will grow. What's your
objective?

I apologize to all the other nice people in this group. I didn't mean to bring all this bickering down on you.
I'm also sorry to have ignored those that have posted in good faith. I'll get to you as soon as I cool
down and will try to make it up to you with good service and more.

Rich. USN Retired
Indiana, USA

 

[tootnkumin]

It seems to me Rich that you have missed the point of my last post. All through the posts you have made here you have complained that no-one will give you feedback regarding your product/s that you have supplied them with and yet in this email from Rob Wright (and I must say that I had no difficulty in receiving a reply and in a matter of a few hours. I did even wonder if I would get a reply) he gives you and your partner and product a quite glowing reference, not an endorsement to be sure, but certainly favourable feedback. It also seems to me that where you have failed to achieve this by your own admission, I have succeeded in one email in accomplishing that. I'm afraid I'm inclined to believe Rob's version vis-a-vis your emails to the club than yours now, which I do with regret, since your latest post, as I thought my posting of that email reply had gone a long way to clearing the air and as I said, establishing your bonafides.

I am not and nor is anybody else on here, I believe, interested in stealing your secrets, whatever they may be (and since your last post I'm coming to the opinion that there's something you're not revealing). Once again your statements made in this latest post don't correspond to the statements made on this page of your website. Here is the link to that page, the same page that I copied from previously http://railroadmicro.com/?page_id=13.
Now and this will be my last post in this thread, I am going to ask the members of the forum who have taken an interest in this, to read what Rich? has written here and what is written on that web page, taken in conjunction with Rob Wrights reply to my email and draw their own conclusions and opinions.

 

[trailrider]

Rich,
Back in 1903, two brothers did something no one else (so far as is confirmed) had ever done. They flew a powered aircraft. Afterward, they spent much of their time keeping their aerodynamic discoveries (from windtunnel tests they conducted) secret. The result was that they didn't keep much secret, and probably slowed development of aviation. I fully understand your not wanting to reveal things to potential competitors. The problem with that is that either potential competitors will come up with something similar on their own, get it on the market, and leave you in the dust! If your circuitry is patentable, then you might want to invest in a patent lawyer. That won't be cheap. So, unless you have something so unique...and patentable...like the variable speed windshield wiper, you might be better off to get your product out there as fast as possible. (The hula hoop comes to mind. The company that invented it, didn't bother to patent it, they just flooded the market before competitors had a chance to get theirs on the market.)

What you are asking for of model railroaders is to beta test your products. That's fine, if you can get a finished product out there for folks to test. You not only need to find people who can set up your product, but can evaluate them in terms of how the uninitiated will view them, and then write a balanced review of how the product works, what is required to make it work in addition to your components, and how easy or difficult it was to put together a working product. You may, indeed, not make certain components, but you might be better off to purchase OEM parts and make the complete package.

It might not be a bad idea to have your beta tester evaluate your instructions. I have found various products that were excellent, but their instructions were written by the people who developed them. They were so familiar with their product that they failed to write instructions that a new owner could readily understand and use. (We get a LOT of this from some of the DCC manufacturers!)

When you get your "above the table" crossing gate mechanism ready for testing, let me know!

 

[Rich_Ros]

It seems to me Rich that you have missed the point of my last post. All through the posts <Snip> <Snip>
Now and this will be my last post in this thread,

Good morning Toots;

It's so nice to wake up in the morning to find still more nit-picking nonsense from you,
it just ensures that anything that happens today is bound to be much better.

Oh well, you're much too smart for me, I may as well confess: My real name is
Bernie Madoff and I'm here to bilk millions of dollars from all you suckers. Chris
Howard of Railflyer is my brother-in-law, I shot JFK, killed both JR and Roger Rabbit,
and was the mastermind behind 911. I think I'll go back to Australia where I won't
have to put up with all this nonsense.

Rich

 

[Rich_Ros]

Rich,
<Snip>
What you are asking for of model railroaders is to beta test your products.
<Snip>
It might not be a bad idea to have your beta tester evaluate your instructions.
<Snip>
/QUOTE]

Hi Trailrider and thank you for a great constructive post!

We both know what'll happen if my stuff ever gets really popular: The Big Guys are going to do everything
they can to drive me out of the market. I don't really expect that to happen, and I sure couldn't afford to
fight them. In regards to a patent, first of all my circuit is simple and there's no actual 'invention' involved.
All the real innovation is in the software and you can't patent that. Software is copywritten. Keep in mind
that a patent application must be such that anyone skilled in the art can replicate what I've done. I have
5 patents to my name. Anyone can recreate what I did, I'd have to learn of it and then defend it. Any of
the big guys would just have their staff legal team bury me in paperwork and I simply could not afford to
fight it. My best 'inventions' were kept trade secret. One in particular kept me on retainer for a major
corporation for quite a few years, none of them knew how my technique actually worked. All my projects
are micro-processor based and I 'lock' all the micros before I ship them, they can't be read or modified, but
they can be erased.

As far as someone else flooding the market with similar products, If they match my quality and price then
I've accomplished what I intended. Call it what you will, but it comes down to selling good stuff cheap.

Oh! And you're absolutely right about having beta testers evaluate my instructions! That's the part that'll
really make it or break it.

I haven't built the above-board crossing gate yet, but I've put a bit of thought into how I might
construct it and I feel pretty good about its chances. I'll definitely keep you in mind when I get
it ready for testing. Are you interesting in test/evaluation of the other products?

I can't make any promises here about how I would reward those who make a good faith effort at
testing/evaluating/reviewing these products, someone's sure to call out the lawyers first chance.
However, I would prefer that they begin by reviewing the only publicly released product that I have,
the Flasher Kit, and then proceed from there. I can't give these away, that's proven to be a loser,
but they will buy each for the same price as the flasher. Anyone that buys a flasher kit and submits
a good faith effort will be welcomed as a team member and be inline for all the new products way
in advance of their release and at the lowest possible cost.

Thanks again for your post, you really made my day!
Rich

 

[psychobeagle12]

What is going on here doesn't sound like anything more complex than I could do with an Arduino board and the toolkit...

 

[FCL2117]

Wow, things can certainly go astray easily. I wonder how this conversation will continue?




Sent from my Vic20 using Java Moose

 

[Rich_Ros]

What is going on here doesn't sound like anything more complex than I could do with an Arduino board and the toolkit...

You're absolutely right, an Arduino is little more than an Atmel device already mounted on a circuit board
with a few peripherals of their choice. I assume you program in C.

I started way back in the days of the 1802, 8080, 4004, etc., but Atmel is my favorite of all. I program
in assembly, it gives me full control of the device's capabilities. The code is small and fast, essential for
real-time programming. It also lets me choose the micro best suited for the job, my flasher circuit uses
the little 8-pin marvel ATTiny13A.

Anyone skilled in micros could do what I did, I'm just passing on my skills to those that can put it to good
use on their layouts.

Rich

 

[Rich_Ros]

Hi Graff;

Thanks for your post. I hope to continue but the response so far is discouraging.
I have what I believe to be a superior product and I intend to offer it at a fraction
of what seems to be acceptable to many, I just can't seem to get any exposure.
I've had several here say they're interested, only one has actually agreed to
help by evaluating and doing a critique of my flasher and other not yet released
circuits. Others seem to think I should only release something that is plug-and-play.

Rich

Rich

 

[Mark R.]

Interesting conversation throughout these four pages ! Comparing this guy's product roll-out / development to Railflyer is a bit obscure though. Railflyer had some great products / ideas, but Chris got in way over his head. Instead of developing a project and getting it to market before moving on to the next, he had way too many irons in the fire (detail parts, self powered trucks, a proprietary DCC system, handheld wireless, etc.) and just buried himself with hardly getting any of the projects to market - just about, but not quite.

This guy has devised a simple flasher unit at a very reasonable cost and wants it proven before moving on to the next roll-out. I honestly don't understand what the problem is ! Good thing Irv Athearn or Bill Walthers didn't meet this kind of resistance when they decided to make some model trains !

Personally, I like building circuits for my layout. I really miss the old Electronics Symposium articles that used to be in MR. I always enjoyed building them. Guess people don't like "building" things today - it's become a RTR / plug-n-play hobby, which is most unfortunate. I would never pay the amount of money wanted for some of those commercial flashers that you take out of the package, plug it in and watch it go, but little kits like this are great for the guy who still likes a little bit of "hands on" work on his layout.


Mark.

 

[logandsawman]

Guys,

I went ahead and bought this item and am having some fun putting it together. I decided to get some real plans for the crossing, for authenticity, and looked at some photos off the internet and came up with this:




I found some materials that would work, a plastic pipe off a Kibri assortment package, some black stir stick straw, small washers, wood, and scenics decals.



I used CA glue on the washers and connecting wire, and crossbucks. It looks like I used the JB weld to attach the washers to the cross wire. This is really strong stuff and can be cut with a knife or drilled into.



Black paint.



And attached the lights with JB weld, an epoxy with insulating properties, sets up like hard plastic.

He includes pictures of the wiring and hope to have the thing running by Monday. I will make a video at that time.

The pressure is on! more later, lasm

 

[NScaler]

Good for you LASM! From the very first post Rich I saw your passion. I will be placing an order pretty soon. Got any N scale appropriate kits?

My suggestion Rich - don't leave it up to the consumer to assemble any more of the electronics than is absolutely needed. If you make a product easy to copy, people will copy it. If you make it too easy for someone to see what you did and they can just go to Radio Shack and buy more parts, why wouldn't they? What would it benefit them to buy more of the same parts from you and wait for shipping than to just drive to the Shack and buy more?

I knew a guy that was developing a kit to adapt Cobra brake components to non-Cobra Mustangs. He did as you and put a kit together made of readily available parts from Autozone. His idea was a good one, but the way he packaged and delivered his idea led to complete failure. Because people just went and bought the same parts once his "recipe" hit the forums.

On the other hand, if the parts are all assembled, and the customer just needs to add the final touches, install it on their layout, why wouldn't they order more if they needed them? Charge a few more bucks and put as much of this together as you can. As stated earlier, there are two kinds of modelers... those that have the skills you possess won't need your kits. Those that don't have the skills won't bother doing the harder work if you have already done it for them. Does that make sense?

In a nutshell, anything can be reproduced by the consumer. It's how difficult you make it to reproduce that keeps people from doing so.

That being said, I would be more than happy to give you a very honest critique just as I am absolutely positive LASM is about to do.

 

[Mark R.]

What a lot of people are failing to understand is that the kit apparently has a programmed chip at its heart. The average modeller does not have the ability to do this programming, so that's where he has a leg up on somebody easily replicating it. Sure, all the parts are probably available at Radio Shack, but not everyone has the software or knowledge to program the chip.

Mark.