DC operators

[NYW&B]

Will the same $20 DCC decoders I hear of work on most popular systems like an MRC prodigy express, digitrax, and NCE?

Also (this might be a dumb question **ALERT!**) if you have a big complex layout with miles of wiring and hundreds of switches.....if there's going to be occasional shorts you'll need to track down....couldn't you just have an indicator light that comes on right where the short is?.....so you don't have to look for it for days to find it? I'm lazy when it comes to shorts......that's just me.....ok sorry....I'll just invent that and get back to you guys. I know when I'm stupid at least.

As worded, the answer to detecting shorts will be, No, at least not without some sort of very sophisticated monitoring system. On a larger DCC layout one first needs to break the layout down into Power Districts. This, just like the old DC block system, isolates portions of the layout to better localize powering and problems. Even so, it will not pinpoint the electrical problem's exact location...and DCC shorts can often prove a real bugger to locate, far more so than with DC as I've learned the hard way from operating on a friend's DCC basement-filling empire.

Plus, if you indeed have "hundreds of switches" on the layout they had better all be DCC friendly, or you may have an awful lot of modification work to do to make them so before the layout can be converted from DC to DCC.

NYW&B

 

[montanan]

I would want to have the ability to have additional power available, a booster I believe they are called. I don't know if I would be interested in sound, but a slight possibility. I have heard the sound units, and I guess they're OK, but after a period of time, I find it somewhat annoying, especially if multiple units are running. When I was a kid, I can remember riding the the cab of the Northern Pacific Yellowstones when they were used for helper service over Bozeman Pass before they were scrapped. The sound units just don't do justice. Guess I got spoiled. I also got a five chime horn from a friend of mine back in the 70's. He was the shop foremen for the BN shop in Livingston, MT. When I got it home, I put some air to it. Unfortunately, I was in a closed shop. I ended up having to read lips for about a half and hour, but I do know what a set of horns sound like, close up and personal. Sound is OK I guess, but I'm not really impressed.

 

[cuyama]

Will the same $20 DCC decoders I hear of work on most popular systems like an MRC prodigy express, digitrax, and NCE?

Yes. In fact, some of them are supplied by those companies. Any DCC decoder works with any DCC system. That's the advantage to a standard.

Also (this might be a dumb question **ALERT!**) if you have a big complex layout with miles of wiring and hundreds of switches.....if there's going to be occasional shorts you'll need to track down....couldn't you just have an indicator light that comes on right where the short is?.....

Once the layout is up and running, it's rarely a problem to find shorts. They are normally caused by cars over a gap or running against a closed track switch. Some folks wire an automotive light bulb into the circuit to help with shorts (which also glows to show you where it is). But with modern DCC circuit breakers, this isn't necessary.

I'll just invent that and get back to you guys.

Happily, it already exists.

 

[cuyama]

I would want to have the ability to have additional power available, a booster I believe they are called.

Those are available for every system and many work across multiple systems.

I have heard the sound units, and I guess they're OK, but after a period of time, I find it somewhat annoying, especially if multiple units are running.

The key is often to turn the volume down from the factory presets. I've been on many layout tours and op sessions where multiple sound units are in operation and if the volume is low enough, it works fine.

 

[cuyama]

As worded, the answer to detecting shorts will be, No, at least not without some sort of very sophisticated monitoring system.

Not typically correct, a simple automotive 1256 lamp or a DCC circuit breaker with indicators is all that's needed. Another thing some folks do is wire a signal head or even just an LED on the fascia into the track power so that if that section shorts the LED goes dark. Easy-peasy

Plus, if you indeed have "hundreds of switches" on the layout they had better all be DCC friendly, or you may have an awful lot of modification work to do to make them so before the layout can be converted from DC to DCC.

Currently the poster who asked the question about "shorts" is just starting out, so he should be fine.

I've operated on a number of layouts with many non-DCC-friendly switches in place and converting to DCC involved no work on the switches. Extra gaps and feeders seemed to work fine. It may depend on the quality of the original wiring.

 

[railfan]

Ok great! That is all good news. Thanks for the info!

Mike

 

[NYW&B]

Quote: Originally Posted by NYW&B
Plus, if you indeed have "hundreds of switches" on the layout they had better all be DCC friendly, or you may have an awful lot of modification work to do to make them so before the layout can be converted from DC to DCC.



Currently the poster who asked the question about "shorts" is just starting out, so he should be fine.

I've operated on a number of layouts with many non-DCC-friendly switches in place and converting to DCC involved no work on the switches. Extra gaps and feeders seemed to work fine. It may depend on the quality of the original wiring.

Yeah, either that or he'll find himself in for a very rude awakening! I saw that sort of lesson learned the hard way when my friend converted from DC to DCC on his layout.

NYW&B

 

[Iron Horseman]

I would want to have the ability to have additional power available, a booster I believe they are called.

Oh ok, that is not something I consider an "advanced" feature. To me "advanced" features are things like working couplers, speed and power feedback to the throttle or computer, 100% computer control, uninteruptible power supplies and the like.

I don't know if I would be interested in sound, but a slight possibility.

Ok I have never considered sound to be an advanced feature, but you are right sound definitely adds much to the cost. But two things. First is that DCC sound has come down in price so much I consider it cheap these days. When I started with DCC a sound decoder was $295. Second is that DCC sound is so much cheaper than DC sound. I got into sound in 1983. The cheapest unit was $310 and the more expensive ones were $625. That price didn't include the electronics in the locomotives. So I don't know that sound makes a good argument for or against DCC.

 

[Doughless]

Will the same $20 DCC decoders I hear of work ....

You also need to be sure that responders to your questions are comparing apples to apples. Do you want to spend $20 for a decoder that works, or one that works well.

Technology may have advanced considerably since the last time I read about it, but I recall cheap decoders having a reliability problem and possibly giving off an annoying buzz at slow speeds. They may possibly have some other issues that would cause your loco to run worse than it currently does on DC.

When trying to price compare, A DCC enthusiast might say "you can get a decoder for a little as $20."

Whereas a DC enthusiast might say "you can still find a TYCO power pack for as little as $5."

The problem is..everyone knows what the latter means... you might not really know what the former means.

That kind of apples to apples detailed discussion rarely happens.

What I would want to know is...how much do I have to spend to get the reliability and performance I have now, possibly also considering durability (heat?) and longevity...then...how much do I have to pay to get more than what I have now.

Once you begin to discuss the situation in that manner, you are then in a position to start making an informed decision.

 

[Burlington Bob]

A $20 decoder by a reputable company should be as reliable as $150 decoder by the same company. The difference lies in the capabilities of the decoders. The $20 one will give basic lighting and motor control. The $150 one will do all that plus give special lighting effects, pretty amazing sound effects, transponding or several other things as well as powdering the engineer's butt at the end of a long day.

I think that some are confusing decoders with controllers. There is a big difference between the two. The decoder is installed in the loco and is controlled by signals that are sent by the controller. The biggest difference in capability is in the controller. That is where the term "upgrade" would be most applicable. You can start with a basic setup that will run, say, four or five locos. An "upgraded" system might be able to handle 20 or maybe 100 locos in the case of a large club. Virtually all systems are capable of being upgraded with boosters and more throttles either wired, infrared or radio.

There is a lot of versatility with DCC and there could be a large expense in converting a large existing DC layout to DCC if there are a lot of locos to convert. But even this can be done over time. It doesn't have to be an overnight conversion. It is possible to spread the changeover out over a period of time to lesson the shock to the wallet.

If you are curious about DCC do some research and try running a system or two. I think you will be in for a pleasant surprise.

 

[cuyama]

Technology may have advanced considerably since the last time I read about it, but I recall cheap decoders having a reliability problem and possibly giving off an annoying buzz at slow speeds.

Technology has indeed advanced. Many modestly priced "fleet" decoders are quite reliable and locos will run quietly and smoothly. As others have noted, much of the difference in price is related to additional features such as sound.

Either DC or DCC can be a good choice. It's important for those making the choice now to recognize that there is a lot of significantly out-of-date or just plain incorrect information being passed around on forums.

Many, if not most, of the folks operating with DCC today have themselves done the wiring on one or more DC layouts in the past, so they have some experience with each. The converse is not always true.

 

[blvdbuzzard]

I have just started back with all of this. Most of my stuff is still DC, yet just before I put it all away I picked up an MRC Prodigy Advance. I did not even have a loco that was DCC. I also picked up (4) of the MRC AD370 decoders with sound.

A couple weeks ago was my first time installing, figuring out the programming, running DCC. It was not to hard. I picked up a new Digitrax 2 function decoder for my old, I mean really OLD BB Athearn GP35. I did not want to waste a sound decoder on an engine that I could not use the speaker.

The new Decoders was $24.00 at the LHS. It was the one that came ready to snap in to my Athearn. No soldering required. Took about 15 minute to install it. I was amazed at how well it worked. It made the engine run smoother then the MRC decoder I had installed the day before. Plus I had to solder the wires for the MRC decoder and the new one was pretty much a drop in.

I can not debate what system is better then the others. Yet with the DCC I am using, I can not see using DC. I had 3 engines on a 3 foot section of track. Two had sounds and one was moving 3 inches then I would reverse it.

My 0.02¢ worth.


Buzz.

 

[Iron Horseman]

but I recall cheap decoders having a reliability problem and possibly giving off an annoying buzz at slow speeds.

There is a huge difference between a "cheap" meaning poor quality decoder and an inexpensive decoder. Even then in their day some of the "cheap" decoders such as the old MRCs (AD310) weren't all that inexpensive. On the other hand several companies make good but inexpensive decoders (such as the NCE D13SRJ).

Then expensive is also a relative term. When I started with command control the system cost $1200 and the cheapest "decoders" were $65 (as well as being the size of a barn). Those prices are not adjusted for inflation. So to me ... 30 years later ... it is all so much better and cheaper than it was back then, that I don't really understand the too "expensive" argument at all.

BTW my favorites are the NCE DA-SR and the Digitrax DH165K0.

 

[Doughless]

You have all made very good points. Most of the information contained in them I've already strongly suspected. In fact, with most electronic products these days, the features and capabilities dictate price, not component quality. However, I also believe that it takes more complexity to make a noiseless decoder than a noisy one, so there s/b a price difference.

My main concern was when somebody tries to price compare, do they know what they are getting?

If one person is talking about all of the benefits of DCC, are they talking about buying a $40 fully loaded (but nonsound) decoder? Fine. Then the reader will need to plug $40 per decoder into their cost of conversion.

If that cost discourages conversion, another might point out how inexpensive basic decoders are. Fine. But by doing that, they've eliminated some of the benefits of DCC that were just established in the conversation. That should be pointed out.

I still maintain that, if your goal is to control as many trains as you can by yourself, which is about 2, IMO, then there is really no advantage to either system. If you want more features than just train control, you will need to buy the more expensive, fully loaded, decoders.

For me personally, my layout requires no complexity in control systems, so adding DC toggles or converting to DCC is moot. I just observe these conversations and oftentimes the analysis gets off its line when someone interjects a variable without realizing it.

 

[Doughless]

As far as introducing variables into a conversation, what about the feature of lighting effects?

What are we talking here, just a strobe, or fully loaded alternating ditch lights?

Great, a decoder can alternate the ditch lights. However, does the reader's locomotive even have operating ditch lights? Can he even use that feature? How many do?

It seems that model locomotives that do, are modern six axle wide cabs that look poorly operating on small layouts. Does the realism that's achieved by spending the money on a decoder that will alternate ditch lights also offset the unrealistic appearance of the long locomotive running on a 24 inch radius curve?

There are often too many moving parts within the analysis to really have a clear comparison.

 

[skillman]

I'm gonna poke my nose back in here. If you are just getting back into the hobby and you were fluent with the tech of the time, then this is new tech that you have to learn. What unit you want, how much it will cost per unit, how many loco's you want to retrofit, how easy it will be to do it. Not to mention whether your old loco's will even accept these mods. Now you have to figure out how this system functions and all it's little nuances.
It was not uncommon for myself and many of my friends to have 50 to 100 locomotives of different types. If an old modeler was to try to retrofit all his engines then the cost would be prohibitive. I remember an old friend who liked to run 100 car frieghts on his layout. We tried to get him to convert to KD couplers but he said it would cost too much. at that time it cost about $2 apiece. The rollingstock cost about $2.75 per car. That was a big investment. That's the same with DCC. You have to look long and hard at every cost and problem to be overcome.
If a person is just getting into this then I think that it makes sense to buy the latest technology. If your interest is in large layouts with modern equipment, then I see a great benefit to DCC and it's available functions. If you operate small layouts with one loco and not a lot of track, then DC will do all you want it to.

Steve

 

[Burlington Bob]

By skillman:

If a person is just getting into this then I think that it makes sense to buy the latest technology. If your interest is in large layouts with modern equipment, then I see a great benefit to DCC and it's available functions. If you operate small layouts with one loco and not a lot of track, then DC will do all you want it to.

That's pretty much it, in a nutshell!!

 

[montanan]

I have been browsing, looking for some interesting small locomotives and found a few, but they are DCC equipped, and really hate to pay the price when I am not running DCC, and will cling to my old DC power supplies.

 

[Charles Smiley]

Montanan. I just picked up an ALCO S4 from Bachman that came with DCC and sound for under 100 bucks at trainworld.com. It will run OK on DC too.
All I had to add was the grab irons on the nose.


Years ago, I started buying DCC-equipped locos knowing I'd switch over someday. I ran them just fine on DC. Since I've made the switch to DCC I therefore had fewer to convert over.

 

[Doughless]

I have been browsing, looking for some interesting small locomotives and found a few, but they are DCC equipped, and really hate to pay the price when I am not running DCC, and will cling to my old DC power supplies.

Montanan,

I'm a bit of a small locomotive junkie, and I believe most small locomotives are offered dcc ready, which is without a decoder, in addition to fully loaded dcc & sound (obviously decoder equipped). I think even the newer Bachmann's are offered that way, but the decoderless versions are harder to find.

Which locomotives are you talking about? You might check again.