Athearn/Horizon Hobby is Squeezing the Life out of Brick & Mortar

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I have to show this set I just found at MB Klein for $109.99 and everything in the picture is included.

http://www.modeltrainstuff.com/Life-Like-HO-8644-Freightline-USA-Set-p/433-8644.htm

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I have been watching this whole thing develop for 25 years when suddenly model trains went HIGH TECH. It seemed small and insignificant but was the final nail for the hobby. Its because anything that is technical IS EXPENSIVE and the cost of model railroading went through the roof in about 10 years and especially in this global economy WHO CAN AFFORD IT?

...

Now we have basically ONE SINGLE BRAND NAME (Walthers) that has MONOPOLIZED THE ENTIRE MARKET and the prices are all FANTASY LAND...

...

Quite a rant, but I have to disagree with about 100% with what you said. Going Hi-Tech has had almost nothing to do with higher prices. The prices of oil has been a major cause of it, as has the demand for more accurately detail locomotives and cars. It has also been shown that the longer Hi-TECH items are on the market, the cheaper, and more advanced they become. I can remember when a Digitrax decoder was around $50 for a 2 function decoder. Now that 2 function decoder is $15-17, depending on the source. Also you'd be surprised at how cheap the basic wiring for DCC is. To wire my layout for DC and 5 operators, would have cost me about $5000.00. So far, for 10 operators, the wiring has cost me under $3000.00. That is a significant savings

Walthers doesn't monopolize the market, not even close. Like HH, Walthers is a manufacturer, and a distributor. There are several other distributors along with these two, they all get their stuff from the same manufacturers. For every item manufactured by Walthers, there are at least two other manufacturers making a similar item.

Costs are relative, whether you're buying trains in 1960, or 2013. As Bruette said, "you have to live in your within your means". While I have sometimes been accused of "champagne tastes on a beer budget", I generally do live within my means. The last loco that I paid a comparable cost to a modern high end loco, was in 1989. I got the Oriental Limited "Powerhouse" 2-8-8-2. I got it for $300.00 While I've picked up about 15 more locos since then, I haven't paid more than $150 for one, and the majority of these were brass engines. I don't go much for sound, so the 1 loco I own that has it will probably remain solo. Since I am running steam and some first generation diesels, I only need that 2 function decoder. No ditchlights to wire, no class lights, as the number boards are white and numbers are black. On the steamers, I use MV lenses, and all locomotive lights were off in the daylight hours in the era I'm modeling, so I really don't need those 2 function decoders. Still total decoders have cost me $555.00.

Some things that I see that has driven costs up, is RTR and the demand for more detail. Someone has to be paid for the work on assembling the parts into a car or locomotive. One way to save money here is to assemble them yourself. KD even makes kits of a couple of box cars. These have the same detail as the RTR. Only real difference is the paint job. There are still thousands of older BB kits, MDC, Bowser, Accurail etc out there to build a set of baseline cars that could be used, and the cast on detail couldn't be seen anyway as a train passed. If you want to go old school, the older wood craftsman kits are out there as well, and these cost about $10-20. Intermountain offers for $37.00 here, a rebuilt USRA 55ton hopper. It looked familiar, so I got it. Sure enough, it was a Tichy model assembled overseas. I had recently just finished 5 of the kits for this car, that I got at a train show for $7.00 each.

Bowser, MDC and others made very nice locomotive kits that assembled into very fine machines. There were some really superb models that came from the Blue Box kits from Athearn. Detail wise you could detail them into just about any RR's loco. These locos would cost between $15-$30. Add the detail cost, paint jobs, and decals, these locos would eventually cost $50-$100.

Don't overlook train shows, swap meets, E-bay and conventions as a source for models. The prices of cars at these are generally dirt cheap, but you do have to search. Don't be leary of E-bay. I've been buying trains off of there for over 15 years, and have never had a bad experience. You just have to be careful, and know your limits, price wise, and desire wise.

Another area to save costs in is track. Learn how to handlay your track. Learn to do it without a jig. Jigs, while they do make the job go faster, cost almost $200.00 apiece. You would have to build 20 turnouts, of the same size, before you get the costs below $10.00 a turnout. Also you could go as far as to learn how to cut your own ties. A 3' section of track has cost me on my layout under $3.00. A turnout can be as cheap, no matter what the size. I have a double crossover that cost me $12 in material. I bought an 8' piece of 1x4 knotless white pine, and I know that I've cut 15-18 thousand ties from it, and I've used a little over half over the past 5 years. I've cut switch ties, and regular ties out of this on a 10" table saw, ($99 at HoDo), and another 4" table saw that I got from HF for $35.

The point that I'm trying to get across is that if you want a cheaper hobby, aim for the areas that has you put in some to a lot of sweat equity. The more work that you do yourself, the more money you will save, and then, on occasion you'll be able to acquire that superdetailed loco or several copies of the special car you can't do without.
 
Carey, That was well said from a model railroader with great experience, thanks for sharing that! I love to read your thoughtful and informative posts.

To reply to the original post of this thread; I believe an individual or corporation as the right to ask for a personal guarantee of a line of credit. I use to be a commercial salesmen for Firestone and we always had to ask for a personal guarantee from a corporate officer of new corporation. I did the same when I was self-employed.

I also want to clarify a statement I made about Lionel's vision line. The cost is very high, but you get what you pay for! The workmanship and detail is amazing. The electronics are state of the art. Lionel also offers unmatched service and support for all their products, but especially for vision line products. There is nothing wrong with a $2000 locomotive, nobody forces us to buy anything.

I personally have been trying to put away some of my train budget to get a vision line diesel when they come out with one that fits my taste. I have had not had any success in doing so because I always find such great deals on other things. I want to kick myself every time I see a vision line Grand Central Station for sale on eBay. I should have bought it when I had the chance to pre-order through LRRC.

I spend so much because I keep flipping around what I am doing. first Lionel O gauge, then restoring my Old HO locomotives. Now I am on to DCC. If I were more focused and prudent I could spend a fraction of what I have spent. Carey you are absolutely right about a little work saving money! I have saved hundreds by restoring Lionel locomotives. When they run around my layout the only one who knows they were not new is me and it is rewarding to bring an old locomotive back to life.

If I really wanted to save money I would focus on HO. I spent $720 for a Lionel ZW-L transformer with the intention of going with Legacy controls. It is still in the box because I went on to restoring my old HO locomotives. I will get back to it. I just ordered the NCE DCC Twin starter set and a PROCAB for $250. I also got 3 new DCC locomotives for $173 total. After building my Lionel layout and stocking it I think HO is a bargain! Maybe I am an odd ball, but I love both gauges. I even have an N-scale Christmas train. They are to small for my arthritic hands and failing eyes, but I can see how so many love them too.

To be perfectly honest the best money I spent was less then $200 to restore my old HO locomotives. I enjoyed that more then anything so far. I enjoyed it so much I bought some others to restore but it was not as rewarding as repairing my own. It does not make sense from an economical stand point either, new HO locomotives for my taste are cheaper and better.

Bottom line is there are so many ways to enjoy this hobby and it can fit into almost any budget.

As for young people, they have so many choices for how to spend their play time. I have 2 grandsons and they love the trains, but they also love video games. I have to sometimes turn off the trains or video games to get them outside. Physical play time is most important in my mind. I can't say if they will pick up my love for this hobby. All I can do is to include them in mine and see what happens.

My wife says "it's good you have so many different kinds of trains because you never know what the boys will like the most" I have the most beautiful and wonderful wife. My wife never complains about my trains, the time, space or money they take up. Thank you God for my wife.

I am paraphrasing but, like Stoker's wife said "I could be spending my money on much worse things then trains"

I love my trains.

Louis
 


This has always been a moderately expensive hobby. That's one reason it's so associated with Christmas. Lionel knew the only time a kid would get a gift as expensive as his product was for Christmas. It also was the one time the family might give up the space to set it up. He also figured out that once there was one in the house, every year more would be added and grow.
I spent a bit of money on my layout but over thirty years or so. I see the latest loco come out and you guys want six and complain about the price. The new guys see the state of the art layouts and want to build them now. Most of these layouts took time and it spread out the cost. Actually, this is a good hobby cost wise. You really don't need anything once you are up and running. We don't buy gas and things seldom break altogether. It doesn't die if we don't feed it. It's all wants. I think some of you guys buy locomotives like your wives buy shoes. You got a closet full of them, but only two feet to wear (run) them.

Sorry for the rant and I certainly hope I didn't offend anyone but it's just my observations.
 
Gary I took no offense and you were right on target with this comment, you said "I think some of you guys buy locomotives like your wives buy shoes. You got a closet full of them, but only two feet to wear (run) them." I know I have bought more locomotives in the last nine moths then my wife has shoes!

I am guilty of wanting more then I need and to giving into "the wants". My friend and fellow forum member Rodney said "the only expensive locomotive is the one you don't use" I am guilty of having more locomotives then I can use.

I never complain about prices or how much money I have spent. I know it's all my fault if I have spent too much. I have decided to do better in the future. In my case there is a broad range between what I want and what I need. I am moving closer to the side of need more then want, but If you get right down to it I don't need anything for my hobby. I have more then enough to keep me occupied for the rest of my life.

That still does not stop me from saving to get the new Lionel "Silver Bells" set and the Lionel B&O EMD SD 40-2 and eventually the Lionel Legacy control system. All of that and I have not yet received my Lionel Christmas Catalog yet! That is after I finish the bench work and lay the track for my DCC HO layout. Oh yeah I want a Conrail DCC HO locomotive too!

I have a lot to do before Christmas! I love my trains and I thank God for them!



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IT IS THE MANUFACTURERS FAULT they are the ones who set the pricing. Athearn was for years the best value engines anywhere and I am not talking about GENESIS, I am talking about the standard with add on railings engine. THe car kits were under $5 bucks and were fun to build.

IN FACT, if you do not have either a standard ATHEARN F unit (FT, F3, F7, F9), or a PA then you are not a real model railroader. THESE ARE STANDARD FARE. And are durable. When LifeLike went all PROTO on us, I had my doubts from having dealt with that brands less than reliable or detailed products.

And the Proto engines all looked great BUT WHATS UP WITH A ZILLION TINY PARTS that are so easily lost or damaged, and then was that drive mechanism that drove the hobby clubs nearly insane. THEN THE BANKRUPTCY to get out from under the replacement claims.

COnsidering the state of manufacturing TODAY and everything being made cheaply in china, INCLUDING KATO (shame on Japan), these engines are not over $10 per unit to make. The fact that they are running over $100 is PRICE GOUGING. AThearn simply couldnt compete against that and still survive against the HIGHLY DIGITAL UNITS.

The Horizon Hobbies thing is just another BS to add on. That company has no registered corporate info and virtually no support. They also cherry picked what parts of the line to keep producing AND MADE SURE IT WAS ALL THE PRICEST RANGE ITEMS.

We need makers like; AHM, IHC, Rivarossi, Bachmann, & ConCor. Just the passenger sets alone made Rivarossi my hero. And the steam engines, although several were not 100% prototypical, WERE FABULOUSLY BEAUTIFUL. I have 3 Alton pacifics.

But it is not just here that PRICE GOUGING EXISTS. This is something the baby boom generation stuck us with: WHAT THE MARKET WILL BEAR. Not what is a fair price for a decent consumer product. JUST CHECK YOU GAS PUMP PRICE TO SEE. We have had FIXED PRICE GUARANTEES WITH OPEC SINCE THE 1950s WHEN WE DISCOVERED AND DEVELOPED ALL THE OIL FIELDS IN THE MIDDLE EAST. The trade price is all for show. Greed just makes us all bleed. And most are bleeding out there pocket books & wallets at an unprecedented pace.
 
People losing their own homes by the millions.....another FISCAL CLIFF LOOMING next month......a president that didnt meet a special interest group he didnt like; the force upon us all healthcare system upcoming and God knows how mush that monster is REALLY GONNA COST.

And then justifying LOVING TRAINS and throwing money at that $100 at a time...........

If you really loved trains, you would get a rail job. RESTORE A TROLLEY CAR OR LOCOMOTIVE and at least do a HISTORICAL PRESERVATION AND GET A TAX CREDIT. I have been involved in all that and have spent less money accordingly that I did when I decided to try and build a HO layout. THE BOXES OF STUFF STILL STARE AT ME and I will probably never actually get around to finishing the thing. HOW MANY GUYS DI WE KNOW LIKE THIS?
 
Ahaah! I thought so. You have made 5 posts since joining this forum. All designed to be combative and generate discontent and get members of this forum to argue among themselves while you sit back and have a laugh. The true hallmarks of an internet troll. I suggest one of the moderators close this thead and remove your insidious presence.
 
You must be a BABYBOOMER. This all got started when I was trying to get some support for an ATHEARN product and kept getting BS from Horizon and was looking all over for help on that and saw some good stuff here. I think almost everyone could sympathize with that. I have been waiting for more commentary ON THAT ISSUE, and did not realize how many people would STICK ONTO THIS. SORRY BOUT THAT.
 
Hi kgt13,

I was a coal sampler, I sold tires to the railroads, I was a self-employed industrial mechanic and finally a consultant. I spent countless hours working on and for the railroads. Chessie, later CSXT and Conrail. If I was not now disabled I would still be involved, but that does not give me special privilege to love trains more then anyone else.

There are no special requirements for what kind of equipment you have to have to be "a real model railroader".

You have a right to your opinions and I respect that, but your rights end where another person's begins. You are not going to convince anyone by belittling them. To be perfectly honest when you belittle people, most of them will stop listening.

My grandfather worked for the PRR and loved toy trains as well and spent most of his disposable income on toy trains. My mother tells me every house they lived in had an area devoted to trains. When I first noticed the Lionel Vision Line I told my Mom about the $2000 locomotive and I rhetorically asked her "who buys a $2000 toy train?" Without hesitation she said "my father would have, he loved to buy the best trains no matter what the cost. He did not drink or smoke and he saved his extra money to buy trains."

With values being adjusted for inflation and wage levels, trains are cheaper and better then ever now.

I can't go out and buy a $2000 locomotive at the drop of a hat, but there is nothing wrong with the guy that does. "To each his own"

The free market is and will continue to control what prices we pay. Every manufacturer wants to get the most the market will provide for whatever they make and sell. It's just capitalism. It's not perfect, but it's the best we have.

I get frustrated with politics too, for different reason then you, I think. Take my advice, spend more time with your trains. Relax and enjoy life, count your blessings and not your problems. I have always tried to live by this simple idea "do your best and forget the rest".

I hope you can have a great weekend and enjoy yourself.

Louis
 


You must be a BABYBOOMER. This all got started when I was trying to get some support for an ATHEARN product and kept getting BS from Horizon and was looking all over for help on that and saw some good stuff here. I think almost everyone could sympathize with that. I have been waiting for more commentary ON THAT ISSUE, and did not realize how many people would STICK ONTO THIS. SORRY BOUT THAT.

I apologise to the OP for mistakenly confusing him for you, seeing you have made such determined efforts to take over this thread for your own purposes. You should know (and no doubt you do) that the use of capitals (I won't fall into the trap of imitating your feebleminded attempts) and snide remarks are also hallmarks of a troll. I believe I have correctly identified your true purpose on this forum. I shall from herein refrain from responding to your childish and immature behaviour and hope others will do likewise, bye,bye.
 
YOU DO REALIZE THAT THIS THREAD GOT STARTED LONG BEFORE ME AND IS ON THE TOPIC OF HOW HORIZON HOBBIES is screwing around and may not survive. PLEASE GET BACK ON TOPIC AND ALL OF YOU STOP FIXATING ON ME. People are important and CHILDREN are important and FAMILY is important. ANYTHING THAT TAKES TIME AND MONEY AWAY FROM THOSE IS BOTH A SIN IN GODS EYES AND A WASTE OF TIME THAT IS VERY PRECIOUS AND SHORT TO US ALL. Meantime, if we can (and many do!) find ways to manage those and STILL HAVE MODEL TRAINS, then PRAISE THE LORD! BUT THAT IS NOT ON TOPIC AND ITS GETTING ME PICKED ON AND THIS IS THE FIRST EVER THING I HAVE EVER COMMENTED ON HERE, so give a guy a break.

I know you meant well and I appreciate it, BUT PLEASE GET BACK ON TOPIC. TOPIC IS= ATHEARN & HORIZON HOBBIES. THANK YOU ALL. This thing got WAY OUT OF HAND, lets turn it back to where it started so we can PUT OUR HEADS TOGETHER ON THAT. GOD BLESS AND THANKS. -kevin
 
cOULD U pleas throw away the shift key on your keyboard?

That, along with semi coherent political crap, and the complete inability to understand business, is extremely tiresome.




Sent from my Vic20 using Java Moose
 
YOU DO REALIZE THAT THIS THREAD GOT STARTED LONG BEFORE ME AND IS ON THE TOPIC OF HOW HORIZON HOBBIES is screwing around and may not survive. PLEASE GET BACK ON TOPIC AND ALL OF YOU STOP FIXATING ON ME. People are important and CHILDREN are important and FAMILY is important. ANYTHING THAT TAKES TIME AND MONEY AWAY FROM THOSE IS BOTH A SIN IN GODS EYES AND A WASTE OF TIME THAT IS VERY PRECIOUS AND SHORT TO US ALL. Meantime, if we can (and many do!) find ways to manage those and STILL HAVE MODEL TRAINS, then PRAISE THE LORD! BUT THAT IS NOT ON TOPIC AND ITS GETTING ME PICKED ON AND THIS IS THE FIRST EVER THING I HAVE EVER COMMENTED ON HERE, so give a guy a break.

I know you meant well and I appreciate it, BUT PLEASE GET BACK ON TOPIC. TOPIC IS= ATHEARN & HORIZON HOBBIES. THANK YOU ALL. This thing got WAY OUT OF HAND, lets turn it back to where it started so we can PUT OUR HEADS TOGETHER ON THAT. GOD BLESS AND THANKS. -kevin

Kevin, this is a pretty forgiving community and most folks here will give a new guy some slack. We have all sorts here, young people, retired guys, blue collar types, white collar professionals, some kids and even a lady or two. If you don't mind a little advice, here it is:

If you had issues getting assistance on a Horizon product (I'm assuming it's Athearn?) try calling them on the phone. E-mail is a wonderful thing, but service departments are small everywhere these days, and it may take a try or two to get you on their radar and keep you there. I have found them quite willing to make things right once communication gets established.

Telling us we're all anal, telling us how we should practice our hobby, and being preachy in general are not going to win you any friends or influence any people. The state of the hobby is what it is due to market forces. Take a look at my second post on this thread (I think it's #17 or 18). If you want to practice your hobby with 1960-1980 blue box stuff, there are still plenty of those on the market at swaps, train shows and even many LHSs. Have at it. I will practice my hobby the way I want and spend my disposable income the way I see fit, thanks very much! ;)

Politics and religion are banned here and getting into them is getting on the express to having a thread closed.

Take a deep breath, calm down and to quote Sergant Hulka from "Stripes" Lighten up Francis! :D

This is a good group, and you can have a lot of fun here, as well as learn a bunch. It will be what you make it.
 
LOL! Ever hear of projection?

Psychological projection was conceptualized by Sigmund Freud in the 1890s as a defense mechanism in which a person unconsciously rejects his or her own unacceptable attributes by ascribing them to objects or persons in the outside world.
 
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I'm starting to regret ever starting this thread. :(

I started it to have a constructive conversation regarding the issue with the one hobby shop. Not to see it hijacked and turn into a flame war.

Kevin, I think everyone understands where you're coming from and respects that, but just tone down the emotion. Again, this is a hobby, which solely exists for a way to enjoy free time.

How much, where, and how a person chooses to spend their disposable income is the exercise and right of the individual and is the cornerstone to the free market. The hobby has evolved to where it is today due to a multitude of reasons, and it will continue to evolve and change due to various market forces.

My bottom line with this site is the same as with the hobby--have fun with it. And when it becomes not fun, it is time to step away for awhile. I've met, dealt with, and even hung out with some great people who contribute to this board. My knowledge and enjoyment of the hobby has been greatly enhanced by my participation on this site.

I'm not a moderator, but please keep it civil, respectful, constructive, and above all--keep it fun. It's a hobby, after all (trying to avoid use of all caps at all cost). :)

Take care,

Brad
 
I have seen grand locomotives PROJECTING ashes, smoke and soot from the stack. I have been in the cabs of some of the most famous engines in the world under live fire. THIS IS A RAILROAD FORUM And I have been STEERING YOU GOOFBALLS BACK TO THAT SUBJECT FOR THAT LAST 6 OR SO COMMENTS. ONCE AGAIN THIS IS ABOUT ATHEARN BEING SCREWED UP BY HORIZON HOBBY. IF YOU CAN
1) SEE
2) READ
3) COMPREHEND LITERATURE
4) COMPREHEND AN ACTUAL TOPIC
5) HAVE AN ACTUAL AFFECTION FOR TRAINS, RAILROADS, OR MODEL TRAINS

THEN DEAL WITH THAT. THAT IS WHAT THIS FORUM IS FOR. LEAVE THE REST AT HOME.
 
No regrets Brad, a few posts not withstanding there has been good discussion. We have these "state of the hobby/market/whatever" discussions now and then. They are mostly interesting ;), and I enjoy participating.
 






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