Necrosaro420
Member
I have standard atlas turnouts, would a 4-8-2 or 2-10-2 have problems using regular turnouts etc?
Would 2-10-2 or 4-8-2 have problems with turnouts?
- Thread starter Necrosaro420
- Start date
Selector
Well-Known Member
What do you mean when you describe them as "standard?"
The answer depends on the engine and the turnout. Some engines don't have much side-play in the drivers, often the middle ones, so that it can go around curves less than, say, 22" radius. But virtually all engines made for the mass plastic/diecast market should be able to take a #6 turnout, and most can take a #5 with room to spare.
I have several makes of large steamers, and they have no problems with my several Peco Streamline Code 83 Insulfrog #6 turnouts. Brass engines of the 4-8-4 and 2-10-2 type would possibly have some trouble, but these days in order to retain a market, even the higher priced brass is coming capable down to 30". They would be just fine on a #6, and probably also on a true #5.
As for the turnout, if the points are in gauge both ways, sharp, lie flat and tight against their stock rail partners, and if the frog is properly made, and the wings and guard rails guaged, I don't think you'd have a problem with an Atlas Streamline #5. A #4, especially the snap variety with the curved points rails and frog exit...not so sure, and not so hopeful.
-Crandell
The answer depends on the engine and the turnout. Some engines don't have much side-play in the drivers, often the middle ones, so that it can go around curves less than, say, 22" radius. But virtually all engines made for the mass plastic/diecast market should be able to take a #6 turnout, and most can take a #5 with room to spare.
I have several makes of large steamers, and they have no problems with my several Peco Streamline Code 83 Insulfrog #6 turnouts. Brass engines of the 4-8-4 and 2-10-2 type would possibly have some trouble, but these days in order to retain a market, even the higher priced brass is coming capable down to 30". They would be just fine on a #6, and probably also on a true #5.
As for the turnout, if the points are in gauge both ways, sharp, lie flat and tight against their stock rail partners, and if the frog is properly made, and the wings and guard rails guaged, I don't think you'd have a problem with an Atlas Streamline #5. A #4, especially the snap variety with the curved points rails and frog exit...not so sure, and not so hopeful.
-Crandell
Necrosaro420
Member
Standard meaning just ones you can pick up at any local hobby shop. These are not numbered on the package, but I have seen them at all 3 local shops here. Just basic ones
Selector
Well-Known Member
I still don't see how the term relates to the geometry of the frog, and that is what counts. If the turnouts are not labelled, or unless the store owner agrees to take them back for a full refund if you claim they don't work, I would give them a miss. Stick to the newer Customline by Atlas or use Peco Streamline.
-Crandell
-Crandell
trailrider
Well-Known Member
It all depends on the locomotives, and whether you are referring to Atlas Custom Line or the regular Atlas turnouts. These turnouts are set up for use with 18" Radius Snap Track, which makes the curves pretty sharp for longer wheelbased locomotives. You would probably be better off with #6 PECO's or #6 Shinohara (available from Walthers).
The locomotives may have extra sideplay in their middle axle drivers, or may have the middle drivers "blind" (no flanges). I have 2-10-2's, 2-10-4's, 4-8-2's and 4-8-4's that will handle 18" radius curves, barely. But these are locomotives I kitbashed years about 25 years ago from Mantua kits. They have only the front and rear drivers flanged, with the middle drivers not only blind, but the front and rear axles are shimmed downward, with the middle axles shimmed upward, creating a slight gap between the blind drivers and the tops of the rails. This keeps the center drivers from catching on the tops of the rails as the loco comes out of the curve. You can't see this unless you get down at eye level with a light behind the wheels. The engines also have had clearances increased between the frames and lead and trailing trucks, where necessary. While you might think tractive effort would be drastically cut by only having the front and rear drivers contacting the rails, but the boilers on these a zamac castings, with a bunch of details added, and they weigh a bit more than average. Most were re-motored with Canon 22mm dia. coreless motors and Mellor gearing, and they will pull like a mad dentist! (A pair of 2-10-2's can be double-headed to haul twenty old Athern hoppers loaded up a 4.5 % grade! The reason only 20 cars is otherwise you wind up chasing your own caboose on some layouts.)
The locomotives may have extra sideplay in their middle axle drivers, or may have the middle drivers "blind" (no flanges). I have 2-10-2's, 2-10-4's, 4-8-2's and 4-8-4's that will handle 18" radius curves, barely. But these are locomotives I kitbashed years about 25 years ago from Mantua kits. They have only the front and rear drivers flanged, with the middle drivers not only blind, but the front and rear axles are shimmed downward, with the middle axles shimmed upward, creating a slight gap between the blind drivers and the tops of the rails. This keeps the center drivers from catching on the tops of the rails as the loco comes out of the curve. You can't see this unless you get down at eye level with a light behind the wheels. The engines also have had clearances increased between the frames and lead and trailing trucks, where necessary. While you might think tractive effort would be drastically cut by only having the front and rear drivers contacting the rails, but the boilers on these a zamac castings, with a bunch of details added, and they weigh a bit more than average. Most were re-motored with Canon 22mm dia. coreless motors and Mellor gearing, and they will pull like a mad dentist! (A pair of 2-10-2's can be double-headed to haul twenty old Athern hoppers loaded up a 4.5 % grade! The reason only 20 cars is otherwise you wind up chasing your own caboose on some layouts.)
There's no such thing as a "regular" Atlas turnout.
There are "Snap-Switches", which don't have a number marked on the packaging. These are pretty sharp and may not work well with the steam locos you are contemplating. These say "Snap-Switch" prominently on the packaging.
They are about a #3 frog with a tight curve.
Atlas Custom-Line #4 turnouts are actually about a #4.5 and should work well with equipment that can negotiate a 24" curve. For crossovers, you'll probably need #6s or larger.
By the way, there are no "regular" 4-8-4s or 2-10-2s, either. Each model is a bit different, so if you'd like to get help you'll need to be more specific about what models you are looking at, what radius you plan to run, etc., etc.
There are "Snap-Switches", which don't have a number marked on the packaging. These are pretty sharp and may not work well with the steam locos you are contemplating. These say "Snap-Switch" prominently on the packaging.
They are about a #3 frog with a tight curve.
Atlas Custom-Line #4 turnouts are actually about a #4.5 and should work well with equipment that can negotiate a 24" curve. For crossovers, you'll probably need #6s or larger.
By the way, there are no "regular" 4-8-4s or 2-10-2s, either. Each model is a bit different, so if you'd like to get help you'll need to be more specific about what models you are looking at, what radius you plan to run, etc., etc.
Last edited by a moderator:
jeffrey-wimberly
Dr Frankendiesel
It really depends on how well they can take sharp curves. I have a Mehano 2-10-2 and a Bachmann 4-8-4 and they both will go through my Bachmann #4 turnouts without a problem, though they do look a bit ridiculous doing it.
Necrosaro420
Member
My right turnouts are atlas #543 (Is this considered #5?) Unsure what my left are, but are equivilant to the right hand turnout
Mike_Arnold
Newbie Modeler
Im just going to assume that you probably have Atlas #4 Snap Switch turnouts.
Type "Atlas 543" into an Internet search engine.
You'll see that this is indeed a Snap-Switch, much tighter than a #5, as mentioned above. In fact, if you look on the package, Snap-Switch is printed right on it.
As in this photo, you can see the words "Snap Switch" printed on either side of the plastic blister.
http://www.atlasrr.com/Images/Track/Trackphotos/Code83/543.jpg
These switches likely won't work with your desired steam engines, as mentioned above.
There is no Atlas #5 switch in HO.
Snap Switches are not #4. More like a #3 (or less) with a tight diverging leg.
The effect on rolling stock is much more restrictive than an Atlas #4 Custom-line turnout (which are actually about #4.5)
Last edited by a moderator:
Turnout number
The Original Poster seems to be new to the hobby with a lot of basic questions and it may be that this is leading to some confusion.
When we refer to turnout "number", it's not a manufacturer's model number. It's a size designation. Lower numbered turnouts, such as a #4, turn away from the main route more sharply than do higher numbered turnouts, such as a #6.
Just as with curve radius, larger equipment, especially steam engines, may need gentler turns. Higher-numbered turnouts are like a larger turn radius and are better for this more demanding equipment.
Those steam engines probably wouldn't run very well on 15" radius curves and they won't like the sharp angle of a (#3) Snap Switch, either.
Except for Snap Switches, most model railroad turnouts will have the turnout number clearly marked on the package. I posted the link to the image for the Snap Switch above. Here's the link for the #4 from Atlas. Note the words "#4 turnout" in the upper right corner of the package
http://www.atlasrr.com/Images/Track/Trackphotos/Code83/562.jpg
Likewise the #6
http://www.atlasrr.com/Images/Track/Trackphotos/Code83/564.jpg
For the Original Poster, you might be well-advised to get a copy of an introductory book that will have much of this information in one place, such as this one. Even if you don't build that exact track plan, you'll find that a book like this has a lot of good basic information.
The Original Poster seems to be new to the hobby with a lot of basic questions and it may be that this is leading to some confusion.
When we refer to turnout "number", it's not a manufacturer's model number. It's a size designation. Lower numbered turnouts, such as a #4, turn away from the main route more sharply than do higher numbered turnouts, such as a #6.
Just as with curve radius, larger equipment, especially steam engines, may need gentler turns. Higher-numbered turnouts are like a larger turn radius and are better for this more demanding equipment.
Those steam engines probably wouldn't run very well on 15" radius curves and they won't like the sharp angle of a (#3) Snap Switch, either.
Except for Snap Switches, most model railroad turnouts will have the turnout number clearly marked on the package. I posted the link to the image for the Snap Switch above. Here's the link for the #4 from Atlas. Note the words "#4 turnout" in the upper right corner of the package
http://www.atlasrr.com/Images/Track/Trackphotos/Code83/562.jpg
Likewise the #6
http://www.atlasrr.com/Images/Track/Trackphotos/Code83/564.jpg
For the Original Poster, you might be well-advised to get a copy of an introductory book that will have much of this information in one place, such as this one. Even if you don't build that exact track plan, you'll find that a book like this has a lot of good basic information.
Selector
Well-Known Member
A snap switch's frog number is "sharp".
For our originator, North American 'standard' turnouts are determined, and designated, by frog numbers. A frog number 4 means that for every unit of length travelled down the major axis of the turnout, meaning the through route (the straight one), the frog forces the axles on the diverging route to move laterally by 1/4 the distance travelled. So, for every one unit of diversion right or left at the frog, the car must have travelled four units down the major axis as well.
That is quite sharp in real railroading terms, and pretty much the bottom useful line in hobby terms, but not always. Usually these #4's are curved all the way through, and beyond, the frog, and that is not how real N. American standard turnouts are configured. The standard ones curve along the sliding points rails until just before the frog, and then they are straight through and beyond the frog for quite some distance, typically 15 -20 feet.
A great turnout # for the hobby is a solid and true #5 turnout because it will handle virtually any hobby engine except maybe a 2-10-2 in brass. I use Peco Insulfrog Code 83 #6 turnouts and run some long passenger cars and some long engines. They handle #6 turnouts like nobody's business.
If the turnouts you are worried about have a fully curved diverging route, one big arc segment, then you have a snap switch, and it will be a flat #4, maybe even less as Byron suggests....but it won't be good for larger steamers, and useless for passenger cars with body-mounted couplers longer than 60 scale feet.
-Crandell
For our originator, North American 'standard' turnouts are determined, and designated, by frog numbers. A frog number 4 means that for every unit of length travelled down the major axis of the turnout, meaning the through route (the straight one), the frog forces the axles on the diverging route to move laterally by 1/4 the distance travelled. So, for every one unit of diversion right or left at the frog, the car must have travelled four units down the major axis as well.
That is quite sharp in real railroading terms, and pretty much the bottom useful line in hobby terms, but not always. Usually these #4's are curved all the way through, and beyond, the frog, and that is not how real N. American standard turnouts are configured. The standard ones curve along the sliding points rails until just before the frog, and then they are straight through and beyond the frog for quite some distance, typically 15 -20 feet.
A great turnout # for the hobby is a solid and true #5 turnout because it will handle virtually any hobby engine except maybe a 2-10-2 in brass. I use Peco Insulfrog Code 83 #6 turnouts and run some long passenger cars and some long engines. They handle #6 turnouts like nobody's business.
If the turnouts you are worried about have a fully curved diverging route, one big arc segment, then you have a snap switch, and it will be a flat #4, maybe even less as Byron suggests....but it won't be good for larger steamers, and useless for passenger cars with body-mounted couplers longer than 60 scale feet.
-Crandell
trailrider
Well-Known Member
The other thing to watch out for with the Atlas turnouts is the fact that many of the newer ones (before building my new layout, I'd been out of the hobby for 20 years, and many of my turnouts are way older than that!!!), have quality problems, which can cause derailments of almost anything! I posted (somewhere on this website) how to modify the point rails so they can be bent slightly to be in gage throughout the length of the point rails. You do need to buy an NMRA track gage to check them. You can't bend the point rails to the correct gage until the foot on the back side (the side that faces the straight stock rail is filed flat or even slightly undercut so it doesn't hit the stock rail. The point rails are flat where they meet the stock rail, but they didn't take material off far enough along the point rail's length in the direction of the frog. To get at this area you probably will need to "unsnap" the point rail's metal tab from the plastic throwbar. Be very careful not to break the little plastic nub that fits into the hole in the metal tab on the point rail. With the point rail free of the throwbar, you can move it far enough to get at the area that needs filing. After you think you've removed enough metal, reconnect the point rail to the throwbar. Bend the point rail CAREFULLY until the NMRA gage indicates the proper distance between the point rails. Check to see that the tip of each point rail seats into the recess cut in its respective stock rail, both on the straight and on the diverging side, when the switch machine is thrown (either manually or electrically. It may also be necessary to slightly bend or file the very tip of the point rail to keep cars from "picking" the point as they enter the turnout.
Hope this helps.
Hope this helps.
flyboy2610
Loveably weird
Put another way, the number designation of the turnout is equal to how many inches forward the train must travel in order to be one inch away from the diverging rail.
Imagine that the diverging rail has a piece of straight track connected to it, as does the straight rail of the turnout. The 'number' of the turnout is how may inches straight ahead you must measure from the frog to be one inch from the diverging rail.
A #4 turnout only needs 4" forward to be one inch from the diverging rail, while a #8 needs 8". So the #4 diverges the train away from the straight ahead rail at twice the rate of a #8 turnout.
It sounds more complicated than it really is.
Necrosaro420
Member
Ok ok ok, as I stated in another thread, I bit the bullet and bought new turnouts and replaced the ones I just bought lol. Got the Atlas custom-line #6. Seem to do alot better and look salot more natural as well
flyboy2610
Loveably weird
I think you'll be much happier! And so will your steamers.
Selector
Well-Known Member
Good! Although it goes against much of what is appealing about this hobby, making do, and making right, the fact is that sometimes the path of least resistance provides welcome relief. Sometimes the newest versions of things is worth paying for because they really have improved in some key areas.
-Crandell
-Crandell
