Where is "the line"?


santafewillie said:
Firstly, I do not believe in TK's (the MR author) premise that dispatchers, fast clocks and multiple operators are the only way to go.
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I haven't read the article. Did he actually say that was the only way to operate a model railroad? Or did he say it was the way he prefers? There's a big difference. I'm OK with the second approach, but definitely not the first. If your idea of fun is running your train in circles on a 4 x 8 and watching it go by, then by all means, have at it! It's YOUR railroad.

BTW, I used to do some two person operating sessions. Engineer and conductor. We'd pick up some cars at the interchange track, run them out to industries and pick up the empties which we returned to the interchange. I guess you could say it was a shelf style layout, linear with about 5 switches. Pretty basic really. It usually took about 4 hours per session, and the whole thing was done by just two people.

Was it prototypical? Well, the track was 4 feet 8-1/2 inches wide (give or take) and we interchanged with the BNSF, so I'm going to say yes.
 
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After reading all these posts I think I need to look at Model Railroader magazine from a different perspective. Instead of looking for what fits my tastes I should be looking to see what else is out there. Open my mind, expand my horizons... you get the idea.

I learned my Peanuts Halloween train is prototypical to a degree. Iron Horsemen got me thinking differently about my Christmas tree trains. I have a new admiration for modelers who do prototypical operations and much more.

I learn so much from this forum and I even learned that I am not the only one who does not like pumpkin pie. Even though I can make a pretty good pumpkin pie or so I'm told.

You are so very right Willie!

Bottom line for me is we all have one thing in common, we love our trains. Rather than focus on our differences we should always keep in mind what we have in common.
 
modelbob said:
I haven't read the article. Did he actually say that was the only way to operate a model railroad? Or did he say it was the way he prefers? There's a big difference. I'm OK with the second approach, but definitely not the first. If your idea of fun is running your train in circles on a 4 x 8 and watching it go by, then by all means, have at it! It's YOUR railroad.

BTW, I used to do some two person operating sessions. Engineer and conductor. We'd pick up some cars at the interchange track, run them out to industries and pick up the empties which we returned to the interchange. I guess you could say it was a shelf style layout, linear with about 5 switches. Pretty basic really. It usually took about 4 hours per session, and the whole thing was done by just two people.

Was it prototypical? Well, the track was 4 feet 8-1/2 inches wide (give or take) and we interchanged with the BNSF, so I'm going to say yes.
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no he did not say that was his premise...he said that is the way he runs his layout, and just due to its sheer size and complexity.
 
I have to say that one of the important things I find about running trains at the club, is the interaction with the other members and the friendships that ensue. Physical social interaction and an interest in what others like in the way of trains. We run whatever fits on the rails, which sometimes means even "S" or On30 gets mixed in with the OO and HO. I also like that it requires having to wait in a siding while another train from the opposite direction passes, that's prototypical. One of the things I found unattractive with the new double track layout elsewhere, where it was more like follow the leader and don't dare stop. I was asked at the Thursday night meeting if I'd like to join in at an operating session at a member of that other club's home layout, which several already do. Can't wait. It's also why, if I ever do get to build some sort of layout in my garage, switching will be a most important, nay, essential part of it to hold the interest. You can only watch a train, or even trains, go roundy round for so long before becoming bored.
 
Did he actually say that was the only way to operate a model railroad?
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No, my bad, I erred in putting the word "only" in my post. He did state that it was the way most people with large layouts run them, which I believe is less than correct.

Willie
 
Selector said:
Umm...well, you did. "This guy actually expects us to believe he has this in his house and he CANNOT just pick up a throttle and have fun?"

In the quote, you assumed Koester doesn't know, or has forgotten, how to have fun. Fun as you define it. Not how he defines it. So, there-in lies your assumption.



Agreed, and this is nothing new. There is often the unfortunate phrase, "Real modelers do....(X, Y, and Z)." Whenever it appears in a forum, discord is sure to follow, and for good reason, as you seem to understand. However, you seem to be intolerant of other kinds of fun, or you're merely expressing your disbelief, in your own form of hobby centrism, that others can have fun in ways you don't understand.



Is it? Is it a 'given?' Who is to say the cost is outrageous? Isn't that the same centrist view you are expressing? It's not outrageous for me. I have about $30K into the hobby now, and expecting to go considerably deeper in the next ten years.



By now, I hope you understand that it's only your opinion, and based on your perspective and experience in the hobby. Look, I can understand that you find it hard to relate to, but to use terms like outrageous, over the top, and such, is surely just your take on what he says is his reality in the hobby. Remember, Koester has been doing this for elephant's years. He's like that well-travelled Hindu, Binder Dundat; he's evolved in that "god created Evolution", no more or no less than your own. It's just that he's known God for a bit longer. :)
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Well, you got me. LOL! I went back and looked and nowhere on the page does the word "fun" appear so the 8 paragraphs of descriptions of the various "work", which does appear, and assigning of jobs was just that. How can I be intolerant of something that apparently does not exist? What ever he considers fun is not up to me. But I guess we have no idea what the guy considers fun, it was not mentioned anywhere on the page. Not once.


LOL! YA sure! I'd like to live in a world where I could casually drop 30K on anything let alone MRR! Well done! I had a one time chance to spend about ten grand on this and my projected MRR expenses to the day I die will probably not exceed a thousand dollars.

I've stated before and I'll do it again that it was only my opinion. In my opinion the mag is looked to by newbs such as myself for guidance and example and when we says things like "I can assure you that is exactly how most owners of sizable home layouts interact with their railroads" we believe him. He is the one in the magazine, is he lying? Perhaps he is making assumptions too! It is precisely because of his "elephant years" in the hobby that the "So there I stand after spending a decade and a half of time and money on a model railroad that I don't even get to operate", was a real disappointment! THIS is the goal? The example we are supposed to emulate? No thanks! I'd rather have fun.
 
Bruette said:
After reading all these posts I think I need to look at Model Railroader magazine from a different perspective. Instead of looking for what fits my tastes I should be looking to see what else is out there. Open my mind, expand my horizons... you get the idea.

.... I have a new admiration for modelers who do prototypical operations and much more. ...
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If that's the case Louis, then I'll simply have to invite you to join Karl and me for the next quarterly Op Session on the CL&W!:D
 
Bruette said:
After reading all these posts I think I need to look at Model Railroader magazine from a different perspective. Instead of looking for what fits my tastes I should be looking to see what else is out there. Open my mind, expand my horizons... you get the idea.

I learned my Peanuts Halloween train is prototypical to a degree. Iron Horsemen got me thinking differently about my Christmas tree trains. I have a new admiration for modelers who do prototypical operations and much more.

I learn so much from this forum and I even learned that I am not the only one who does not like pumpkin pie. Even though I can make a pretty good pumpkin pie or so I'm told.

You are so very right Willie!

Bottom line for me is we all have one thing in common, we love our trains. Rather than focus on our differences we should always keep in mind what we have in common.
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When I poke at the proto brethren it is automatically ASSUMED that I am ANTI proto and nothing could be further from the truth! I absolutely will be going slowly but surely in that direction and have expressed my admiration for their skill and knowledge and my belief that they have been and are the drivers behind this hobby many times. It is the "locking in" that amuses me. I have seen people pass up things they have openly admitted they wanted to run and could easily afford but could not bring themselves to get because of arbitrary self imposed "rules"! Everybody talks about fun but there is a point when strict adherence to a snapshot in history looks like it turns into a self imposed stress trip! The stuff just does not mass out like the "real" ones and will not behave in the same way no matter what and watching guys try to pound that square peg into the triangle hole is kinda funny and a little "cringe worthy" at the same time.
 
Personally, I think what TK advocates is something that closely resembles what I consider going to work. Conversely, I find my self building a rendition of just that. An urban switching railroad involving yard and terminal operations including interchanges, industrial interchanges and shared asset trackage, industrial switching, :rolleyes: eek!!! work!!! The difference is mine is planned for the lone operator, although, it will accommodate several guests, If I choose to go that route. Solo operation permits me to omit the paperwork, and preparation that is required for a formal operating session.

Back when I was working, I would get home, and unwind by watching a train run around the train room, while I lifted weight in the adjacent space. No way would I replay the days work. After retiring, I found the continuous run to be boring, and turned to switching. I could lose myself for several hours working a drill crew. Much more stimulating mentally, than watching the "Daily Deficit" chase it's tail around the layout.

Bottom line, is that TK is writing about his railroad, and the way he runs it. Crabby Joe writes about the way his railroad will be run, while Bruce and others relate how their respective railroads are run. There are egos out there, as well as advocacy of prototypical correctness, but over all, I think it's all about what the individual wants to do with his layout that counts.

Model Railroader, tries to balance available articles to please the majority of its readers each month, depending on your outlook, they may succeed or fail miserably. TK's other article this month, the one concerning Interchange(s), caused me to consider incorporating a B&O interchange to the mix of operations on my developing railroad. Technically not correct for my era, but an excuse to use some of my B&O stuff, in addition to the PRR and RDG.

Now if I only had an extra 250K and some suitable land...
 
Say whatever you will about Tony K., I have to give him credit for opening my eyes to a whole new dimension of model railroading.

In the beginning I had an E-shaped "island" layout in the middle of my 2-car garage. In the center peninsula was a steel mill based on the Walthers blast furnace and other structure kits, with a 4-track yard; the outer peninsulas [plus a pair of duckunders] supported a one-track main line with a passing siding, which doubled as a staging track. I thought this was about as good as it could get for me.

Then I read TK's book Realistic Model Railroad Operation, and his intro chapter that showed how a handful of lineside industries could fit on one side of a 4x8 with a scenic divider down the middle, and how somebody could squeeze at least hour's worth of operating fun just switching the industries on that little layout with different trains, one going East and the other going West. That got me thinking, Hey - for the price of half a dozen turnouts I could put several of those small industries along my main line!:cool: After I did that, I found myself spending a lot more time in the trainroom, doing a different switching scenario each evening.

Eventually I posted an image of my track plan on this forum and one of the guys here, who lived in my area, said it had "potential" and would I like to have him and a few friends over for an op session? I said I didn't know anything about how to host op sessions and he said "Don't worry, we'll show ya how it's done!" I just had to be willing to accept a bit of constructive criticism. Well they came, and they offered a lot of compliments mixed in with their "critiques" and I had more fun that night than at any time [up to that point] since my return to model railroading. I implemented their suggested changes, and they came back and offered a few more changes and...soon I found myself hosting op sessions on a regular basis. A whole 'nother world of mrr had opened up to me! ...and all as a result of my reading that little book by TK.
 
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Then I read TK's book Realistic Model Railroad Operation, and his intro chapter that showed how a handful of lineside industries could fit on one side of a 4x8 with a scenic divider down the middle, and how somebody could squeeze at least hour's worth of operating fun just switching the industries on that little layout with different trains, one going East and the other going West.
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That particular chapter, Ken, was the best part of TK's book. It was an eye opener, as to what you can do in a small space. And your experience led to opening yourself up to a whole new dimension. Not bad at all.

I also like TK's concept of creating industrial sidings and leads. Just a switch off the main, and a short spur. Not even a building. It's another concept I'm considering using to add to my operating plan.
 
Well drawing a line and where to draw it, is up to the modeller. There is no right or wrong as long as you are enjoying your hobby time and as long as you don't try to be as realistic as possible. If you try to be realistic, there is a right or wrong though on how a specific train (and any scale object) looked, or how a specific aircraft/locomotive/etc was weathered by comparing to period photos, data concerning practices and standards of the period etc.

As for layout size, cost and the ability to run it on your own (since it was mentioned earlier), i thought that the complexity of a layout (number of turnouts etc) and not the actual size of it, determines most of its cost, time to build and ability to run it on your own. For example, if one can run a layout with 5 industries and 1 town which is 10x10' why can't he run a layout which is 30'x30' again with the same 5 industries and town but simply spaced at bigger distances to each other with more mainline run being the main difference?
 
I found this one lying around, doing nothing. Seems too good to waste. Surely someone can put it to good use, somewhere? somehow? anywhere? someone? anyone?.............................................Surely??
 
tootnkumin said:
I found this one lying around, doing nothing. Seems too good to waste. Surely someone can put it to good use, somewhere? somehow? anywhere? someone? anyone?.............................................Surely??
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I think you crossed it...
 
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PLEASE do not misunderstand! I of course think the guy can do as he wants. It is the attitude with which it is presented that I have a problem with! These guys ARE "the authority" and DO set the example! They have a responsibility ESPECIALLY when they say things like "I can assure you that is exactly how most owners of sizeable home layouts interact with their railroads"! Those who have no idea would take that as "gospel" and not even try if what was described did not appeal to them! "If THAT is the way it is SUPPOSED to be then I'm out" would be the reaction most would have and they would not even begin to explore any other options!

The thing that saddens me the most is nowhere did he mention any FUN! Sure they are smiling in the picture, or it could be grimaces of pain, hard to tell.
 
Terry you seem a little confused, Toot was born on that side! :rolleyes:

Bottom line is enjoyment, which hopefully is fun. I try to combine ops and fun.
 
new guy said:
The thing that saddens me the most is nowhere did he mention any FUN! Sure they are smiling in the picture, or it could be grimaces of pain, hard to tell.
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You didn't read the article.

Here's the last sentence:

"So we're like the orchestra conductor or show producer who doesn't blow a horn or walk out on stage, but thoroughly enjoys doing his job."

Yes, he never used the exact word "fun", but you could you interpret "thoroughly enjoys" to mean anything other than positive? You are projecting your preferences on him. The only person who is saddened is you. Everybody else seems to be having a blast. If they weren't, why would people line up to play in his basement time after time for over 30 years?
 
dave1905 said:
You didn't read the article.

Here's the last sentence:

"So we're like the orchestra conductor or show producer who doesn't blow a horn or walk out on stage, but thoroughly enjoys doing his job."

Yes, he never used the exact word "fun", but you could you interpret "thoroughly enjoys" to mean anything other than positive? You are projecting your preferences on him. The only person who is saddened is you. Everybody else seems to be having a blast. If they weren't, why would people line up to play in his basement time after time for over 30 years?
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BINGO! OK I dug out this month's issue (which I hadn't had a chance to read yet) and read what Tony wrote. New Guy, you seem to have completely missed his point. First, this is an editorial. His opinion, nothing more. Second, nowhere does he say his way is the right way, or the only way. Third, after reading it, I can't see how anyone can come away without understanding that he likes what he does (i.e. he has fun). An important sentence you missed: "They build them to see a specific time and place come back to life." This is the key. He recreated what he saw in his youth. Think of a clock maker. He built it and he likes to watch it tick. He was successful in his efforts. Having operated on a number of large layouts, both club and privately owned, I can tell you that generally the host does exactly what Tony does. Makes sure the crew understands what is expected, handles minor glitches, and generally makes sure everything goes well. He wants everyone to have a good time. For him, that's a blast. I once hosted an all SP themed session at our club. I didn't run a train. I spent the evening making sure everything operated properly, was glitch free. I gotta tell you it sure was a rush seeing all of my stuff going through its paces on the railroad. Best session I ever attended. Lots of work too! Readying two passenger trains, a mail train, some two dozen locomotives,and about a dozen cabeese that had to be glitch free was no small project! I'd suggest you keep an open mind. Maybe attend an NMRA regional near you or the national when it's close by, and go on a few layout tours, or attend some op sessions as an observer. Learn things. This isn't really very different than seeing your first craftsman kit diorama when all you've ever built was Walthers Cornerstone kits. It's a progression, and expansion of your abilities. You don't have to do it, but if you don't try, you'll never know what you're missing. Just my $.02
 
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