Where is "the line"?

[Genetk44]

Lets be clear guys....the layout Bruce/New Guy is referring to and making assumptions about is the basement railroad empire of Tony Koester, that Tony spent 15 years building. And the article is just an editorial about his preferred method of running an operating session and how its done. And no,the whole layout being huge, cannot be run by one person ...that doesn't mean that Tony can't spend an hour switching cars at one freight yard or another should he so choose as a way to have some fun should he so choose.

Personally I would have absolutely no interest in building a layout that big, nor would I want to be activly involved in an operating session on a railroad like that...but thats me. I also wouldn't want to go about buying and building the way Bruce-New Guy did last winter...but thats me. My interests are different than Bruces or Tony Koesters....if they enjoy what they are doing and how they are doing it then that is all that counts and all that is important.

I enjoy my way of model railroading, it works for me and I presume everybody else enjoys their way of model railroading and the way they do it works them...that is all that matters,that is all that counts. Period. End of story.

 

[Hawkesburytrain]

The line is different for every individual. For me, just watching a train go in circles wasn't for me as I would get tired of it after a short while. This 40' x 20' layout I'm building right now is for me, even though 5 people and a dispatcher is what is needed for operations. For now it's me, myself and I and if I do find others that are interested in operations, I'll gladly open my doors.

It's always nice to see such layouts as Tony Koester, I personally like to see big layouts with lots of details.

 

[tootnkumin]

Because he wants to. I understand his position completely.

How many times have you ever played a game of baseball by yourself? Not batting practice, but tried to play a game of baseball? Never? think that would be silly? Well that's what he is thinking. He is playing a "baseball game". For him, not having the team there, just hitting the ball and running around the bases by himself seems silly. I have several friends who have built large layouts and don't run very many trains by themselves. Their vision is they have built a RAILROAD, not a train set. For them the joy, the fun, the play is running the RAILROAD, not just running a train to be running a train. You seem to think they are being forced by some oppressive conformity to operate that way. But they aren't, the people who do that CHOOSE to do that.

You have made a lot of assumptions with your comments. You have said that its to hard and expensive to model a prototype. Its actually exactly the opposite. Wanna save money? Pick a specific prototype, a specific location and a specific era and stick to it. You will save hundreds or thousands of dollars over the years by avoiding impulse buying. You are much less likely to end up with a smaller, focused roster that get used than a room with a hundred boxes of equipment that was run for 15" and put back in the box for another year while you run the next really cool thing you found on E-Bay. If you like collecting great, there are lots of really cool things out there, but I guarantee you will spend more money than the people who buys just what they need.

That is a lesson I have had to learn, I am now thinning out "gear" I had bought and have hardly run, or moved on from. I found my prototype interest in an issue of Trains Magazine after floundering around somewhat aimlessly for quite a few years, just buying what took my fancy. There are a couple of trains I will keep because, running at a club exclusively (not an exclusive club though), I can and too much money has gone into them, not to get some value back. Fortunately also, MRL being a Class2, gets other power etc, on it's rails, even some passenger. Just wish I'd found that direction very early, would've chosen a bit more wisely and used money in a better way. But like I said (slightly differently), WE get to draw the "Line" wherever WE WANT TO. This is NOT a democracy.

 

[Genetk44]

The line is different for every individual. For me, just watching a train go in circles wasn't for me as I would get tired of it after a short while. This 40' x 20' layout I'm building right now is for me, even though 5 people and a dispatcher is what is needed for operations. For now it's me, myself and I and if I do find others that are interested in operations, I'll gladly open my doors.

It's always nice to see such layouts as Tony Koester, I personally like to see big layouts with lots of details.

Yup...just don't want to build one that big.

 

[RBMNfan]

I think the major thing missed by many of you is that he has a large group of friends who are into model railroad operations. That is what makes him happy. He is replicating the human interactions behind the corporation. We forget that a small shortline would probably have 10+ employees. I would love to be an operator on a large prototypical model railroad. Whether I do it a second time I wouldn't know until afterwards. I still enjoy my small bedroom sized layout. But I am a lone operator. I have a hard enough time running the 5 or 6 trains it takes to move freight and passengers across the layout. I enjoy operating a train that replicates the movement of freight forwarding from point A to point B.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

 

[modelbob]

Please, PLEASE NO, Bob, then we'll know the hobby really is doomed.

Really? Why do you say that? Granted, some part of the hobby will change, no more building benchwork or wiring or putting together cars.

However, when you can create scenes like this one, it's hard to say it's all bad.



It also allows people who don't have the time, money and space to build a layout to enjoy model railroading. Some of you mentioned operations, these kind of simulators are perfect for that. I have, for example, run a train over the Marias Pass line in Montana a few days after visiting the area. It was fascinating and enjoyable to run a few trains over the line and see places that I'd visited. I had the ability to (virtually) sit in the cab and run the engine. The route was the actual length, and the run took about an hour if I recall, all while never retracing your route.

I certainly don't have the time and space to build a model of the pass. But I was able to run trains with just a few moments of preparation, and do it in a realistic manner. Personally, I think it's a good option.

I'm not suggesting you trade in your layout for a Sony Playstation, but I think the younger generation may find it their preferred method of simulating trains, which is what much of model railroading is all about. BTW, model railroaders had roughly the same conversation about 40 years ago when "shake the box" kits became common and scratch building declined.

 

[modelbob]

If you haven't truly "operated" a model railroad with a crew of people, it's likely that you don't understand why he rarely runs trains on his own. The analogy to playing baseball is excellent. There's a completely different feel when working with a crew of people. I'm lucky enough to have a large club layout I can attend a monthly ops session at. We have a group of anywhere from 5 to 15 guys, and run trains on a timetable with a dispatcher and fast clocks.

It feels a lot like the real thing. Of course on a big layout, you have enough room where you can run multiple trains without having problems with one running into the next constantly or not having enough space. The layout has plenty of options, locals, drag freights, passenger runs, hostlers, dispatcher. It's interesting, fun and you also learn a lot about railroading in the process. It's not for everyone, but it's a nice option.

 

[Iron Horseman]

Wanting to replicate prototypical operations is one thing and admirable it is, it drives the hobby to a large extent.

I have not read the article - I assume the magazine is at my other house 440 miles away, but I have a saying when people start getting too prototypical - "There is a reason they have to pay people do to prototypical operations". It is time consuming and boring. I don't really care that I forgot to do another reverse move and stop and pick up my pretend switchman. I don't want to waste real time waiting to get air into the lines nor for that brakeman to walk the train. etc, etc, etc.

However people who had only run trains for themselves without at least one of a time table, schedule, or dispatcher are missing a pretty great part of the hobby. Just two operators on something as simple as the Christmas Tree layout is gangs of fun compared to just one operator.

 

[tootnkumin]

Really? Why do you say that? Granted, some part of the hobby will change, no more building benchwork or wiring or putting together cars.

However, when you can create scenes like this one, it's hard to say it's all bad.

View attachment 59396

It also allows people who don't have the time, money and space to build a layout to enjoy model railroading. Some of you mentioned operations, these kind of simulators are perfect for that. I have, for example, run a train over the Marias Pass line in Montana a few days after visiting the area. It was fascinating and enjoyable to run a few trains over the line and see places that I'd visited. I had the ability to (virtually) sit in the cab and run the engine. The route was the actual length, and the run took about an hour if I recall, all while never retracing your route.

I certainly don't have the time and space to build a model of the pass. But I was able to run trains with just a few moments of preparation, and do it in a realistic manner. Personally, I think it's a good option.

I'm not suggesting you trade in your layout for a Sony Playstation, but I think the younger generation may find it their preferred method of simulating trains, which is what much of model railroading is all about. BTW, model railroaders had roughly the same conversation about 40 years ago when "shake the box" kits became common and scratch building declined.

If you haven't truly "operated" a model railroad with a crew of people, it's likely that you don't understand why he rarely runs trains on his own. The analogy to playing baseball is excellent. There's a completely different feel when working with a crew of people. I'm lucky enough to have a large club layout I can attend a monthly ops session at. We have a group of anywhere from 5 to 15 guys, and run trains on a timetable with a dispatcher and fast clocks.

It feels a lot like the real thing. Of course on a big layout, you have enough room where you can run multiple trains without having problems with one running into the next constantly or not having enough space. The layout has plenty of options, locals, drag freights, passenger runs, hostlers, dispatcher. It's interesting, fun and you also learn a lot about railroading in the process. It's not for everyone, but it's a nice option.

 

[new guy]

I made no assumptions, I was going from what the man said in his own words. And WHY does it have to be a vs situation? It's not a battle for supremacy it's a small train. Why can there not be a synthesis of styles, a "God created Evolution" kind of attitude?

Contrary to what some have said there IS an attitude of "the MRR police" among some who have layouts. Snobbery is alive and well in the MRR community!

As for money, it's a given that it costs an outrageous amount of money to do this on a more than 4x8 size table and you could spend as much as a house can cost on a 4x8 alone depending on what you run and how you scene it. Insisting on a proto roster could cost you YOOGE if it is a rare road name or industry, and if it is steam era you are looking a 400 dollar loco's for "the good stuff".

That guy has an awesome layout and of course he can run it any way he wants BUTT publishing that sentence about not being able to run trains on his own layout was over the top and I just think it is ridiculous and a disservice to the hobby by perpetuating the stereotype that keeps people away from even trying when they think that is "what you must do" with a layout.

 

[bnsf971]

If I had a million to spend on trains, I would have something that I could run or operate by myself, though with provision for others to come over and either play with trains, or operate as intended. I would not want to hold myself captive to not being able to run or operate because there's nobody there to help me.

 

[new guy]

If I had a million to spend on trains, I would have something that I could run or operate by myself, though with provision for others to come over and either play with trains, or operate as intended. I would not want to hold myself captive to not being able to run or operate because there's nobody there to help me.

THANK you, Gomez! It's the OPTION that he did not even have according to "his rules" that just had me scratching my brain-pan. He presents the image of a man standing in his own house frustrated and unhappy with "thousands of dollars and hundreds of hours" of awesome layout IN HIS HAND but beyond his reach, not a pretty picture and certainly no incentive to emulate it unless sad and frustrated is your goal.

 

[riogrande]

When you read articles like that, just let your brain go dead. That's what my wife tells me when we watch those superhero movies and TV series on Netflix when most of the stuff you see is like NO WAY.

 

[Y3a]

If money were no object, I'd be doing outdoor G scale in my yard. It would still be primarily a one person operation though. I'm dumping all my current HO stuff because I hate DCC and wiring. A good friend volunteered to do all the stuff except installing DCC in a bunch of older steam locos, but I hated THAT too. I wanna do structures and scenery. I'd rather build 5 Jordan Miniature vehicles than do one DCC install. Hope to sell lots of the stuff at the Greenberg show Dec 10-11 in Chantilly.

 

[bnsf971]

When you read articles like that, just let your brain go dead. That's what my wife tells me when we watch those superhero movies and TV series on Netflix when most of the stuff you see is like NO WAY.

When I watch those movies, I suspend my belief in reality for a couple of hours, and enjoy the entertainment.

 

[Sirfoldalot]

When I watch those movies, I suspend my belief in reality for a couple of hours, and enjoy the entertainment.

I knew that there was a reason that I liked you! Me Too!

 

[Selector]

I made no assumptions,...

Umm...well, you did. "This guy actually expects us to believe he has this in his house and he CANNOT just pick up a throttle and have fun?"

In the quote, you assumed Koester doesn't know, or has forgotten, how to have fun. Fun as you define it. Not how he defines it. So, there-in lies your assumption.

Contrary to what some have said there IS an attitude of "the MRR police" among some who have layouts. Snobbery is alive and well in the MRR community!

Agreed, and this is nothing new. There is often the unfortunate phrase, "Real modelers do....(X, Y, and Z)." Whenever it appears in a forum, discord is sure to follow, and for good reason, as you seem to understand. However, you seem to be intolerant of other kinds of fun, or you're merely expressing your disbelief, in your own form of hobby centrism, that others can have fun in ways you don't understand.

As for money, it's a given that it costs an outrageous amount of money to do this ...".

Is it? Is it a 'given?' Who is to say the cost is outrageous? Isn't that the same centrist view you are expressing? It's not outrageous for me. I have about $30K into the hobby now, and expecting to go considerably deeper in the next ten years.

That guy has an awesome layout and of course he can run it any way he wants BUTT publishing that sentence about not being able to run trains on his own layout was over the top and I just think it is ridiculous and a disservice to the hobby by perpetuating the stereotype that keeps people away from even trying when they think that is "what you must do" with a layout.

By now, I hope you understand that it's only your opinion, and based on your perspective and experience in the hobby. Look, I can understand that you find it hard to relate to, but to use terms like outrageous, over the top, and such, is surely just your take on what he says is his reality in the hobby. Remember, Koester has been doing this for elephant's years. He's like that well-travelled Hindu, Binder Dundat; he's evolved in that "god created Evolution", no more or no less than your own. It's just that he's known God for a bit longer.

 

[montanan]

Guess it all comes down to one thing. It's your railroad and you can run it any way you want. I would love to have a layout large enough to fill an aircraft hangar, but that ain't gonna happen. I am lucky enough to have the room I do have, larger than a lot of people and have built a layout that I enjoy.

Different people have different interests. Some like to watch trains run, some like to detail locomotives and cars. Some like to work on scenery. Some enjoy operations and some don't. That's what is so nice about this hobby. All of us enjoy trains and we can enjoy them is many different ways.

Like was mentioned, some people can get bored watching trains go in circles. With the use of hidden staging tracks, I can run a train continuously, but I do enjoy switching. Some people are totally turned off by switching.

Again, it's your railroad.

 

[Espeefan]

THANK you, Gomez! It's the OPTION that he did not even have according to "his rules" that just had me scratching my brain-pan. He presents the image of a man standing in his own house frustrated and unhappy with "thousands of dollars and hundreds of hours" of awesome layout IN HIS HAND but beyond his reach, not a pretty picture and certainly no incentive to emulate it unless sad and frustrated is your goal.

If you have ever spoken with Tony Koester or heard him speak at conventions, you'd know he's doing exactly what he wants to do exactly the way he wants to do it. He enjoys the ballet, the working of the machine, the replication of prototypical practice. Remember that Sinatra song? I did it MY way! I've operated in small and large groups, and belong to a club with a 4000 square foot layout that takes upwards of 20 people to staff (though we can do it with fewer). Once you've operated with a group and get up the learning curve a whole new dimension opens up, and you begin to see what else you can do with all of this train stuff. While there is some "Model RR Police" and "Prototype Police" activity, most folks who are good at this will generally offer advice to those with similar interests budding, or explain what they are doing to those who are interested. Guys who tell you you're doing it wrong because you aren't doing it their way are usually jerks, and all hobbies have them.

 

[santafewillie]

OK, time for me to chime in. Firstly, I do not believe in TK's (the MR author) premise that dispatchers, fast clocks and multiple operators are the only way to go. While people can certainly have fun doing it that way, similar to the analogy of the baseball game; many more people and layouts are dedicated to just running trains, whether switching or roundy-rounds. I have only been to one ops session, and it seemed that I spent more time waiting around than actually running trains. I myself cannot even find a second operator much less a crew to operate trains...there aren't enough folks close enough to me to do that, not that I would want to anyway. I do however believe that there needs to be a purpose for a railroad (most of the time anyway), therefore I do run things by a "loose" schedule. When I run a local switcher for example, I know where and how many cars I am going to switch. If I just want to run trains, I run through freights from one end to the other end of the layout.
As for MR, as Alan (Espeefan) posted, Road and Track has plenty of articles about cars most of us can't afford, likewise MR has some articles about layouts that most of us can't afford or maintain. But there are things of note in most articles that I have used on my layout, that's one of the beauties of the publication. MRH, as mentioned by someone else is the same, ideas that can be used by anyone who pleases. Bob also made another good analogy. MR also has a lot of "beginner" projects in it. There seems to be at least one 4 x 8 project every year with step by step details of how to build it.
Lloyd, Toot and others have pointed out that the line is different for everyone. I am no big fan of Tony Koester, I think that over the years he has become a bit snobbish, but he is still an excellent modeler. His philosophy of model railroading is just not in line with mine. Is he showing off? I think yes, but we all do. But let's remember that his page in MR is an "opinion" page and does not represent MR's overall philosophy. You have a very different opinion of MR than I do, but that's OK here.
On the opposite end of the spectrum from Tony K, is George Selios and the F&SM railroad. George just likes to run trains on his beautiful layout, although I did read recently that he is thinking about operations.
This is one of the great things about this hobby. Everyone can be different and have different goals as we have seen by the postings on this thread, and I think that we all respect the others opinions. I don't think that anyone who has posted is wrong, I don't eat pumpkin pie but I don't think anything less of those that do! Right Louis!!!
As I stated, I get a little something out of almost every article and will continue to read it for that reason. I don't feel that they claim that Tony speaks for all of them or for all of their readers.

Willie

Willie