A while ago I read where someone had written in about having seen kaolin clay hauled in Southern boxcars that had roof hatches. Is anyone making kits of them now, OR has anyone in the past made them? I have a paper mill and I'd like to have a half dozen or so. Thanks in advance. Perley
Southern Boxcars
- Thread starter oldho
- Start date
Cjcrescent
Master Mechanic
Don't know if anyone is making them, but yes there were Boxcars with hatches in the roof used to haul kaolin.
In my home town, there is one parked on an isolated piece of track. The next time I'm down there, I'll see if I can get a photo of the top. From a distance, they simply look like reefer hatches, but The more I look at them, they could simply be round.
Below is a pic from a small distance away. I can get to and on the car if needed.
Click on the attachment to enlarge.
In my home town, there is one parked on an isolated piece of track. The next time I'm down there, I'll see if I can get a photo of the top. From a distance, they simply look like reefer hatches, but The more I look at them, they could simply be round.
Below is a pic from a small distance away. I can get to and on the car if needed.
Click on the attachment to enlarge.
Cjcrescent:
If you don't mind could you please post a pic or two of the hatches and also showing their approximate locations from the ends and sides of the boxcar? I'd appreciate it.
I'm thinking that my 1970s layout should have about 3 boxcars with kaolin hatches* because they would be fairly unique and conversational pieces.
* I imagine I could find or cobble together the hatch covers if I can see what they look like.
Oldho - you gave me the idea.
Hatches on the tops of boxcars brought to mind this true story. Many years ago when I was a sales rep/national account manager on the BNRR in Portland OR someone in the operating department told me they once spotted some boxcars at a local spur for sand loading (think sacks of sand here.) Well, a few days later he came back by and noticed a chute going into the boxcar through the roof. The customer was loading bulk dry sand by gravity and to do so had cut "hatches" holes in the boxcar roofs with a cutting torch. That got stopped quick and I think they made the customer weld the holes back up (or if union rules prohibited this the cars were shopped.) I don't remember if the sand was transported this way or not.
DougC
If you don't mind could you please post a pic or two of the hatches and also showing their approximate locations from the ends and sides of the boxcar? I'd appreciate it.
I'm thinking that my 1970s layout should have about 3 boxcars with kaolin hatches* because they would be fairly unique and conversational pieces.
* I imagine I could find or cobble together the hatch covers if I can see what they look like.
Oldho - you gave me the idea.
Hatches on the tops of boxcars brought to mind this true story. Many years ago when I was a sales rep/national account manager on the BNRR in Portland OR someone in the operating department told me they once spotted some boxcars at a local spur for sand loading (think sacks of sand here.) Well, a few days later he came back by and noticed a chute going into the boxcar through the roof. The customer was loading bulk dry sand by gravity and to do so had cut "hatches" holes in the boxcar roofs with a cutting torch. That got stopped quick and I think they made the customer weld the holes back up (or if union rules prohibited this the cars were shopped.) I don't remember if the sand was transported this way or not.
DougC
Cjcrescent
Master Mechanic
No problem. I may be going home this weekend. If I do, I'll have the pictures.
hatches
Hey Carey, it would be great if you could get pics and details of those hatches on the Southern boxcar. I assume they were 50'? Exact Rail makes a model of a southern boxcar, BUT, it is a waffle side. AND, they are 35 bucks or thereabouts. I certainly wouldn't have a fleet of them, even if they were the correct ones, which they are not, judging from you picture. I guess I'll have to get Athearn cars and find some decals. Paint them myself, and add hatches if I can find something suitable. Thanks again and glad others are interested too. Perley
Hey Carey, it would be great if you could get pics and details of those hatches on the Southern boxcar. I assume they were 50'? Exact Rail makes a model of a southern boxcar, BUT, it is a waffle side. AND, they are 35 bucks or thereabouts. I certainly wouldn't have a fleet of them, even if they were the correct ones, which they are not, judging from you picture. I guess I'll have to get Athearn cars and find some decals. Paint them myself, and add hatches if I can find something suitable. Thanks again and glad others are interested too. Perley
Cjcrescent
Master Mechanic
Update fellas.
Couldn't go to Selma this weekend. However, I do have to go there later this week to do some work on my sister's computer. While there I'll get the pix if it isn't raining.
Couldn't go to Selma this weekend. However, I do have to go there later this week to do some work on my sister's computer. While there I'll get the pix if it isn't raining.
boatwrench
Well-Known Member
I modeled two of the kaolin boxcars years ago from a 1970's 0r 80's article in MR and ran them on my layout set during the per deim boxcar era.
Took an undecorated Athearn 40' box car, painted and lettered for SOU. There were two roof top hatches on each end and they were round. I used four round roof top hatches from an Athearn covered hopper. The doors of the box cars were painted reefer yellow. Weather as appropriate.
The two boxcars are still in storage but will attempt to get their car numbers posted up.
Took an undecorated Athearn 40' box car, painted and lettered for SOU. There were two roof top hatches on each end and they were round. I used four round roof top hatches from an Athearn covered hopper. The doors of the box cars were painted reefer yellow. Weather as appropriate.
The two boxcars are still in storage but will attempt to get their car numbers posted up.
Cjcrescent
Master Mechanic
Excellent! Although I model the SRR, these cars are out of my era. But any new knowledge about the RR is a bonus for me. From the original pix I have the hatches appear to be round as you say. This car is sitting down by where the old ETV&GARR, (East Tennesee, Virginia, and Georgia, a SRR predecessor) yard was in Selma. Except for the track these two cars are on, all the track in the area is gone. Interestingly, there is the old ETV&GA engine house is still in use today as a warehouse just out of the picture.
boatwrench
Well-Known Member
Photos
The car reporting marks are SOU 324XX - SOU 324XX. The cars were built from an article circa 1984, about the same time as Jim Six's articles on High Hood SD40-2s. I placed the 'B' end hatches on 32406 in the incorrect position. The correct position for the hatches are refelcted on the "A" end and on 32411. I did not take photos in my modeling days, but what a great tool it would have been. These cars would look better with end numbering & reporting marks, different roof walks, stir-ups and weathering on the frame & trucks. When weathering go a little lighter than I did. Do include kaolin by the door edges and kaolin dust wiped away from the car body by the opening of the door. I also forgot rust.
Enjoy. Fun easy model of a unique car that fits in a consist without being out of place.
This last photo of 32411 shows the correct placement of the hatches. The hatches were from an Athearn covered hopper, the kits where you were provided two types, the round hatches seen here and the trough hatches I must have used on the model.
The car reporting marks are SOU 324XX - SOU 324XX. The cars were built from an article circa 1984, about the same time as Jim Six's articles on High Hood SD40-2s. I placed the 'B' end hatches on 32406 in the incorrect position. The correct position for the hatches are refelcted on the "A" end and on 32411. I did not take photos in my modeling days, but what a great tool it would have been. These cars would look better with end numbering & reporting marks, different roof walks, stir-ups and weathering on the frame & trucks. When weathering go a little lighter than I did. Do include kaolin by the door edges and kaolin dust wiped away from the car body by the opening of the door. I also forgot rust.
Enjoy. Fun easy model of a unique car that fits in a consist without being out of place.
This last photo of 32411 shows the correct placement of the hatches. The hatches were from an Athearn covered hopper, the kits where you were provided two types, the round hatches seen here and the trough hatches I must have used on the model.
Last edited by a moderator:
Cjcrescent
Master Mechanic
When I get back down there, I don't mind taking the pictures at all. I do a lot of railfanning there.
cars
Hey Boatwrench, great article and pics of/on your Southern models. Looking at them gives me the feeling that they were 40' cars, is that true? And whether or not, did they use 40 and 50 cars for this product? So --- you had to buy the base car and then buy an athearn covered hopper to get hatches? Is that the only source? Did any other rail line use this method of transport? Thanks very much for the helpful info. Perley
Hey Boatwrench, great article and pics of/on your Southern models. Looking at them gives me the feeling that they were 40' cars, is that true? And whether or not, did they use 40 and 50 cars for this product? So --- you had to buy the base car and then buy an athearn covered hopper to get hatches? Is that the only source? Did any other rail line use this method of transport? Thanks very much for the helpful info. Perley
boatwrench
Well-Known Member
Hey Boatwrench, great article and pics of/on your Southern models. Thank you.
Looking at them gives me the feeling that they were 40' cars, is that true? Yes they are 40' cars. They have run and survived on a large club layout and on my former garage 4' x 18' empire
And whether or not, did they use 40 and 50 cars for this product? I do not know if 50' cars were ever used on SOU. I modeled these from an article and did not research their history or use myself. With the exception of two tours of duty in Virginia I have always lived in California so my modeling of Southern was through books and articles.
So --- you had to buy the base car and then buy an athearn covered hopper to get hatches? Yes. During this period of my involvement in the hobby everything I modeled began life as an undecorated Athearn kit.
Is that the only source? I do not know, the models were built 20+ years ago. At the time Athearn would sell just parts to their models, but everything they produced was shake the box, not RTR.
Did any other rail line use this method of transport? I do not know but I did model these at the same time TOFC/COFC cars were in short supply and boxcars were being scrapped, phased out or cut down for TOFC use so it is possible that other railroads made use of their boxcars for similiar service.
Thanks very much for the helpful info. Perley
I wish I could provide more information but I am just re-entering the hobby after an 18 year hiatus.
Tom
Last edited by a moderator:
Cjcrescent
Master Mechanic
Welcome back Tom! Are still going to model Southern?
boatwrench
Well-Known Member
I'll always bleed SOU green...but I live less than a mile from former Northwestern Pacific and Petaluma & Santa Rosa right of ways...Hmmm...Cadillacs in that black widow scheme...so not determined yet.
Last edited by a moderator:
ICG/SOU
HO & O (3-rail) trainman
Hi. I looked through my Kinkaid book on SOU rolling stock, and found these cars:
Roof Hatch Equipped 40' Box car:
SOU 26950-26999, 55tonLC; 40'6"; 4037 cu ft.
The picture looks like a modified PS1 boxcar with yellow 8' or 9' Youngstown sliding door. 8 round hatches total on the roof, with similar placement as model above. You could use an old Athearn 40' box as a starting point, but the sill is wrong (prototype one is straight), as well as the car ends (PS ends, not dreadnaughts), and roof (not PS). I'd think a 40' PS1 by Kadee would work nicely, but you'd have to modify the sill. Even though the running board is still in place, the side ladders have been cut down (picture is from 1977).
SOU 32434-32499 70 ton LC; 40'7"; 4037 cuft
A PS1 boxcar with a "fishbelly sill" (think the sill on a Accurail modern 50' exterior post box car). This car as 8 30" round hatches mounted the same as the previous car, with the running board in place as well as chopped ladder (picture is from 1981). Door is similar as above example, in color, type and size. The Kadee PS1 boxcar's sill is wrong for this one.
There were a couple of 50' cars with roof hatches as well.
Roof Hatch Equipped 50' boxcar
SOU 34200-34299 70 ton LC; 50'6"; 4954 cuft
Closest match: Kadee 4105 with 9' Youngstown doors
This car is a 50' PS1 with yellow doors. I'm not sure if it is 9' or 10' door, as it looks to be a 10' door. Running boards are in place (photo from 1979) as well as chopped ladders on the side. 4 total (like the 40' Athearn model above) hatches.
SOU 34300-34424 70 ton LC; 50'6"; 5219 cu ft.
This car is a Pullman Standard boxcar with exterior posts (unlike the previous ones) and a yellow 10' Camel door. It has running boards, but this boxcar was built in 1968, it was likely built without running boards and then added later (1980 at Haynes Shops) along with 4 30" round hatches. I'm not sure if I can find a close model, as most of the exterior post modern 50' boxcars in HO scale are of ACF, FMC, or P&CF design. I hold to the 3' rule, so I'd start with a Accurail boxcar, you have the right sills, right number of posts, and door. The ends of the Accurail boxcar are wrong, and you'd need to add a running board and end ladders along with the hatches.
SOU 551360-551418 70 ton LC; 50'6"; 5000 cuft
This car is different from all the others because it is an Evans double-door car. However, it uses 7' Superior plug doors and 8' door Superior sliding doors. The sill is a lower like a fishbelly sill, and has 4 hatches and a running board with end ladders. The herald (SOUTHERN/GIVES A GREEN LIGHT TO INNOVATIONS) is on the right side of the car as they did with many of the double door boxcars they had. The picture is from 1988, and does not have yellow doors. It has 4 hatches only.
Source: Southern Railway Color Guide to Freight and Passenger Equipment. James Kinkaid. Morning Sun Publishing. 1996. ISBN 1-878887-60-2. Library of Congress Catalog Card Number 95-082160. Pages 40 and 54.
Check here for pictures:
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/sout/sou26942ach.jpg 40' boxcar from first series
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/sout/sou26961ald.jpg in number series, but different door and stenciling
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/sout/sou34255ach.jpg first of the 50' series, but one hatch isn't visible
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/sout/sou34263akg.jpg a newer shot
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/sout/sou34291akg.jpg a 1988 shot, with fewer hatches (looks like some have been removed) and painted in the post-merger (NS) paint
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/sout/sou34301asb.jpg the exterior post prototype
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/sout/sou34304ach.jpg this one and the following are good for stenciling
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/sout/sou34304bch.jpg
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/sout/sou34304cch.jpg
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/sout/sou34311ach.jpg a new shot
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/sout/sou34347agd.jpg one with a replacement Superior door
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/sout/sou551380akg.jpg the double door Evans boxcar
Hope these help. You've inspired me to do one of these as a project.
Roof Hatch Equipped 40' Box car:
SOU 26950-26999, 55tonLC; 40'6"; 4037 cu ft.
The picture looks like a modified PS1 boxcar with yellow 8' or 9' Youngstown sliding door. 8 round hatches total on the roof, with similar placement as model above. You could use an old Athearn 40' box as a starting point, but the sill is wrong (prototype one is straight), as well as the car ends (PS ends, not dreadnaughts), and roof (not PS). I'd think a 40' PS1 by Kadee would work nicely, but you'd have to modify the sill. Even though the running board is still in place, the side ladders have been cut down (picture is from 1977).
SOU 32434-32499 70 ton LC; 40'7"; 4037 cuft
A PS1 boxcar with a "fishbelly sill" (think the sill on a Accurail modern 50' exterior post box car). This car as 8 30" round hatches mounted the same as the previous car, with the running board in place as well as chopped ladder (picture is from 1981). Door is similar as above example, in color, type and size. The Kadee PS1 boxcar's sill is wrong for this one.
There were a couple of 50' cars with roof hatches as well.
Roof Hatch Equipped 50' boxcar
SOU 34200-34299 70 ton LC; 50'6"; 4954 cuft
Closest match: Kadee 4105 with 9' Youngstown doors
This car is a 50' PS1 with yellow doors. I'm not sure if it is 9' or 10' door, as it looks to be a 10' door. Running boards are in place (photo from 1979) as well as chopped ladders on the side. 4 total (like the 40' Athearn model above) hatches.
SOU 34300-34424 70 ton LC; 50'6"; 5219 cu ft.
This car is a Pullman Standard boxcar with exterior posts (unlike the previous ones) and a yellow 10' Camel door. It has running boards, but this boxcar was built in 1968, it was likely built without running boards and then added later (1980 at Haynes Shops) along with 4 30" round hatches. I'm not sure if I can find a close model, as most of the exterior post modern 50' boxcars in HO scale are of ACF, FMC, or P&CF design. I hold to the 3' rule, so I'd start with a Accurail boxcar, you have the right sills, right number of posts, and door. The ends of the Accurail boxcar are wrong, and you'd need to add a running board and end ladders along with the hatches.
SOU 551360-551418 70 ton LC; 50'6"; 5000 cuft
This car is different from all the others because it is an Evans double-door car. However, it uses 7' Superior plug doors and 8' door Superior sliding doors. The sill is a lower like a fishbelly sill, and has 4 hatches and a running board with end ladders. The herald (SOUTHERN/GIVES A GREEN LIGHT TO INNOVATIONS) is on the right side of the car as they did with many of the double door boxcars they had. The picture is from 1988, and does not have yellow doors. It has 4 hatches only.
Source: Southern Railway Color Guide to Freight and Passenger Equipment. James Kinkaid. Morning Sun Publishing. 1996. ISBN 1-878887-60-2. Library of Congress Catalog Card Number 95-082160. Pages 40 and 54.
Check here for pictures:
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/sout/sou26942ach.jpg 40' boxcar from first series
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/sout/sou26961ald.jpg in number series, but different door and stenciling
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/sout/sou34255ach.jpg first of the 50' series, but one hatch isn't visible
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/sout/sou34263akg.jpg a newer shot
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/sout/sou34291akg.jpg a 1988 shot, with fewer hatches (looks like some have been removed) and painted in the post-merger (NS) paint
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/sout/sou34301asb.jpg the exterior post prototype
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/sout/sou34304ach.jpg this one and the following are good for stenciling
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/sout/sou34304bch.jpg
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/sout/sou34304cch.jpg
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/sout/sou34311ach.jpg a new shot
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/sout/sou34347agd.jpg one with a replacement Superior door
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/sout/sou551380akg.jpg the double door Evans boxcar
Hope these help. You've inspired me to do one of these as a project.
Last edited by a moderator:
Thank you all for the info.
Some of you may not want to hear this but here's how I'm working on making my kaolin boxcars (and nothing against you detailed prototype guys.)
First I'm going to use 3 MoPac 40' boxcars I have for the kaolin cars. Why these?
A. I already have them on hand
B. Out of about 280 cars I found that I don't have a single SOU RWY box car and don't want to spend the money to buy some
C. I'm going to pretend that the SOU Rwy ran a pool of railcars for their kaolin business. What's a pool? It's when there are many railroads in the route for a particular product, and the origin railroad wants or needs more cars. So they request the other connecting railroads who move significant volumes of this product to dedicate some of their railcars in a pool specifically for these moves. Therefore on my model railroad the MoPac has a number kaolin customers so they are providing some pool cars.
(By the way, I know this kind of information because of my 3-decade work career with the railroads, and this and much other info is in my book, How To Ship By Rail, published by Simmonds Boardman Books, Omaha NE. SHAMELESS PLUG!)
Regarding the hatches, I'm going to use some square ones (not round.) Why?
I found 2 pkgs (8 hatches each) on ebay for $5 plus $2.25 shipping.
Lastly I'm planning on asking my LHS if anyone they know someone who is good at decals, and then pay that person to make and apply a decal for each side of the 3 bocars. In white letters the decals will say, "For kaolin clay loading only. Return to Southern Railway via nearest interchange."
Why this plan? It will save me some $$; it's realistically innovative; I'm not skilled at detailed model railcars' modifications (and I'll admit don't care that much); and I get some rather unique railcars that can also be used as conversation pieces. And because these railcars are boxcars, as long as I keep the doors closed I don't have to make any loads for them. What's not to like?
DougC
Some of you may not want to hear this but here's how I'm working on making my kaolin boxcars (and nothing against you detailed prototype guys.)
First I'm going to use 3 MoPac 40' boxcars I have for the kaolin cars. Why these?
A. I already have them on hand
B. Out of about 280 cars I found that I don't have a single SOU RWY box car and don't want to spend the money to buy some
C. I'm going to pretend that the SOU Rwy ran a pool of railcars for their kaolin business. What's a pool? It's when there are many railroads in the route for a particular product, and the origin railroad wants or needs more cars. So they request the other connecting railroads who move significant volumes of this product to dedicate some of their railcars in a pool specifically for these moves. Therefore on my model railroad the MoPac has a number kaolin customers so they are providing some pool cars.
(By the way, I know this kind of information because of my 3-decade work career with the railroads, and this and much other info is in my book, How To Ship By Rail, published by Simmonds Boardman Books, Omaha NE. SHAMELESS PLUG!)
Regarding the hatches, I'm going to use some square ones (not round.) Why?
I found 2 pkgs (8 hatches each) on ebay for $5 plus $2.25 shipping.
Lastly I'm planning on asking my LHS if anyone they know someone who is good at decals, and then pay that person to make and apply a decal for each side of the 3 bocars. In white letters the decals will say, "For kaolin clay loading only. Return to Southern Railway via nearest interchange."
Why this plan? It will save me some $$; it's realistically innovative; I'm not skilled at detailed model railcars' modifications (and I'll admit don't care that much); and I get some rather unique railcars that can also be used as conversation pieces. And because these railcars are boxcars, as long as I keep the doors closed I don't have to make any loads for them. What's not to like?
DougC
ICG/SOU
HO & O (3-rail) trainman
I think you just admitted to breaking a federal law. Every freight train needs to have the following:
1 ratty old Railbox or
1 old SOU waffle boxcar or
1 NS boxcar or
1 CSX boxcar
A representative from the FRA will be there shortly. (just kidding, but really, a train isn't a train without one or more of the above)
