Scorpius wireless digital train system

[Cjcrescent]

...

My point was whoever Mike Wolf was he had the guts to try it. Ill think you'll agree this has a totally different hardware architecture, not trying to add yet another patch to DCC.
Mistake? If DCC is overlayed DCC on Scorpius how can there be any 'mistake'?

The mistake is that you keep sounding exactly like him. "My system is superior!","My system is simpler!".

My point IS that you need to see what he has tried, is trying to do in regards to his DCS control system. He ignored the NMRA standards for digital command. He believes that his system is superior to DCC in every way, but unfortunately, because its proprietary not many people has bought it. He has even tried to influence the market with various lawsuits against the DCC manufacturers. All that did was cause the development of DCC to be held up for several years. Fortunately, he lost every suit of consequence, and DCC development has sped up recently.

You have stated that more than once that your system has to be proprietary. That is a death knell for it. There are digital standards that the NMRA has, and these are the reason that I can take a Digitrax decoder and run it with a NCE command station and throttle or visa-versa. If you plan on being the sole maker of these components, you won't be successful, or not as successful as you could be. Who wants to buy something like this from a single maker, who may go out of business, have their life cut short, or something happen to curtail, or even stop manufacture of the product. Because of the digital command standards, we really don't have to worry about it.

Sorry I never said this either!

So you do use a PC, cool

With Scorpius you do NOT have to use a PC either! It was one of the key design principles.
I can use my controller to configure any component be it any stationary or mobile decoder wirelessly in 30 seconds. And no its not fluff

Back to the laptop, its a powerful cheap tool with huge screen, usb ports etc etc. If anyone chooses not to use one thats fine by me

If its not one of the key design principles why does your very first diagram show a computer? Its good you don't require one but I guess I missed that it doesn't.

Another question. Different makes of locos will generally run at different speeds. Matching speeds between locos are extremely important to many modelers, so how does your controller do with speed matching of the loco's. Adjusting momemtum, starting voltages, etc. The setting and adjustment of these is the main reason I use a computer for programming. If this question has been asked already, I didn't see the answer. I've been rather ill the past week or so.

Always researching. I promise Ill do even more if you read my posts correctly....deal?

Seriously though I do find digital trains fascinating and Im excited about slowly but surely reconfiguring Scorpius hardware to specifically suit trains.

Rick

Definitely keep researching, so you'll see what you need to do with even the most basic system. I personally think you may be biting off more than you even know yet. But good luck.

 

[injectorman]

The mistake is that you keep sounding exactly like him. "My system is superior!","My system is simpler!".

Please leave Mike out of it. It has nothing to do with Scorpius.

Is it simpler? Is the data comms superior? Is the power system superior? Over time let the enthusiasts and consumers decide

If you can show your reasons why DCC is better in any of these areas please show us.

My point IS that you need to see what he has tried, is trying to do in regards to his DCS control system. He ignored the NMRA standards for digital command. He believes that his system is superior to DCC in every way, but unfortunately, because its proprietary not many people has bought it. He has even tried to influence the market with various lawsuits against the DCC manufacturers. All that did was cause the development of DCC to be held up for several years. Fortunately, he lost every suit of consequence, and DCC development has sped up recently.

Ive heard enough to get the idea of what happened, sorry but that will never ever stop me from producing Scorpius for MRR, its about as different as chalk and cheese. Maybe you forgot also Scorpius will be DCC compatible so I just dont get it?

Lawsuits? Nah! Im too friendly, hey Im giving it away to everyone for free. What we need to do now is agree on a simple set of standards for all wireless comms and move forward. DCC can always be on it so whats stopping us?

And no one can patent it because Ive disclosed it publically, crazy hey, hehehe

So any companies listening PM me. Im not out for a proprietry wireless system, Im sharing my technology. In return perhaps I get some help with software programming.

If your a company that wants a propriety system contact me anyway, just change the code a little so everyone has to buy your product

Why not divert current eforts into DCC into wireless so we can take advantage of the cheaper cost, simplicity and functionality.
Consumers want the latest hippest bestest thing and they want it cheap, they want it totally compatible, 100% that is (not 'sort of compatible') and therefore is this not an opportunity to form a standard that is 100% compatible for all components of all companies? Dreamin? It CAN happen, just imagine that??

You have stated that more than once that your system has to be proprietary. That is a death knell for it.

Not a chance. DCC included anyways.

If its not one of the key design principles why does your very first diagram show a computer?

It just does. Most people use one and they need to know how it integrates.
I cannot post every tid bit in one post so thats why.

Another question. Different makes of locos will generally run at different speeds. Matching speeds between locos are extremely important to many modelers, so how does your controller do with speed matching of the loco's. Adjusting momemtum, starting voltages, etc. The setting and adjustment of these is the main reason I use a computer for programming. If this question has been asked already, I didn't see the answer. I've been rather ill the past week or so.

Consists are done by reconfiguring the maximum PWM on each loco.
I was thinking each loco does one circuit of the track and times are based on the slowest loco, the 2nd and 3rd locos times are then worked out out in terms of percentages. eg 104%, so there for reduce PWM by 4%, example 12V x 96% = 11.52 Volts. Repeat for 3rd loco.

A more complex method is possible using current sensing and back EMF on the mobile decoder but it takes up board space and needs complex algorithms written.

Starting voltages, I expect you mean traction control? Yes a graph will be shown where you can plot the voltages and shape of the acceleration curve in 1000's of possible configurations. Anything can be done to configure voltages.

Definitely keep researching, so you'll see what you need to do with even the most basic system. I personally think you may be biting off more than you even know yet. But good luck.

They said that to Thomas Edison, Tesla, Sony and more.

Biting off more than I can chew? I love a good chew, keeps me off the streets

Seriously though thanks for your concern, I have taken it onboard.

Rick

 

[kbkchooch]

They said that to Thomas Edison, Tesla, Sony and more.

Rick,
I think I would have left Sony out of the last statement. Remember the Betamax?
Superior picture, superior sound, not compatible with everybody else= loser.

 

[tomustang]

Rick,
I think I would have left Sony out of the last statement. Remember the Betamax?
Superior picture, superior sound, not compatible with everybody else= loser.

The Betamax jab, don't forget the minidisc and laserdisc.

For 64 years, is the Betamax the only thing you remember about Sony?

No other innovations like Walkman, 3.5 disc, cd, playstation, flat screen, bluray?

 

[injectorman]

The Betamax jab, don't forget the minidisc and laserdisc.

For 64 years, is the Betamax the only thing you remember about Sony?

No other innovations like Walkman, 3.5 disc, cd, playstation, flat screen, bluray?

Exactly, we would all be using ice boxes instead of refrigerators, using horse and carts AND using DC trains only if no one ever had the balls to have a go.

Simply you had no choice of videos when you went to hire Betamax, 90% of the shelves were VHS, thats the only reason it failed that I can see. I know its the only reason my family back in those days bought a VHS.

I go back to the game consoles, no compatibility, public cant get enough of all 3 big companies products. Each product is strong enough on its own accord. This simply throws the compatibilty argument out the window everytime. However the product does need to be the top notch, and must have more functionality and for a better price otherwise of course it will fail. (In other words people need a good reason to buy it).

However I think a lot of people missed DCC being added to Scorpius because they havent read all the thread properly

If compatibility is so important how about lobbying the train industry for a new proper standard that goes right across all products and through all manufacturers. It wont happen, no one wants it to happen.

Heres the first opportunity in 30 years and probably the last chance to get it right.

Its obvious some of the bigger players in trains DO NOT WANT COMPATIBILITY, this is their business model and thats how it is, and why most products outside the command station to loco standard are and always will be totally imcompatible on purpose. So Im guessing the new generation of wireless technology for trains will lead to a fragmented market so get ready for a series of propriety wireless systems once they do start emerging.

Rick

 

[CBCNSfan]

Simply you had no choice of videos when you went to hire Betamax, 90% of the shelves were VHS, thats the only reason it failed that I can see. I know its the only reason my family back in those days bought a VHS.

That is correct and the real reason behind the Beta failure was Sony itself trying to hog the market. Beta was the better format, however Sony owned the rights and refused to license other Mfg's to use it. The owners of the VHS format did allow license to other manufacturers therefore the market was swamped with VHS recorder/players and compatible media. Sony lost out.
This did not happen to DCC. Pressure from the National Model Railroad Association made the bus and the data it carried standard so that a digitrax decoder could be controled by a NCE throttle or equipment by any manufacturer who accepted the standard format.
Question
Is Scorpius the only RC equipment or are there other makes like it?
If it does catch on in Model Rail, will other manufacturers be allowed to use the same controlling format (frequencies and controlling format)(under license of course)?
If not, IMHO it will be as dead to model rail as Beta is to video recording.
(LOL I guess VHS isn't very popular anymore either nowadays)

Cheers
Willis

 

[injectorman]

Good question.
The architecture is there for the entire world to see free. Take it.
The software would be copyrighted by each company to give individuality and the chance to compete on ideas and additional functions. However the main protocols cannot be copyrighted.

However there would need to be a set of protocols for wireless comms for the following at least if you wanted to run any brand of anything.

1)Type of 2.4GHz used, bands, channels etc.
2)Loco config protocols
3)Block detector to PC protocols
4)Turnout to/from PC protocols
5)PC to signal decoder protocols
6)Loco to turount and PC protocols.
7)PC to accessory protocols.
8)Routing/scheduling/monitoring protocols.

Companies will simply decide to form an alliance in some sort of way or to go the part or full propriety method depending on their business model. They dont care what you want. They as a company have a duty to their shareholders to make as much money as possible, if this means propriety or non propriety systems, then thats what they will do.

Me? Im hoping for a comprehensive standard for wireless.


One has to take price into consideration too. Due simply to the fact you can almost halve your hardware ,(on a more complex system) you can pay a little extra for wireless components and still come out around 33% cheaper overall. With money tight these days and people wanting new technology, combine the two together and no one could seriously doubt theres a reasonable chance it will be in demand to some degree.

I think people also realise redundancy of certain products over history is normal. Everyone gave their black and white TV sets away or dumped them. I know I replaced all my records with CDs and gave them away. That guy eventually dumped them. Its just a natural phase for most products. Then there was CDs, analogue cameras are old hat, etc.

I know also if people are about to invest some money in something they are likely to want the latest technology, fearing their investment worthless or redundant possibly in the future if they dont. People do try to future proof themselves where possible.

Another huge selling point is each component is upgradeable software wise, free online, just download the patch, upload it into your turnout controller or whatever to enjoy the latest function. This would appeal to a lot of buyers.


On a sepate and interesting note we in fact have 2 standards in MRR right now living side by side, ones called DC, the other DCC. And theres always going to be more than one way to skin a cat. Theres no way DCC is going anywhere for a long time so relax

Rick

 

[CBCNSfan]

The architecture is there for the entire world to see free. Take it.
The software would be copyrighted by each company to give individuality and the chance to compete on ideas and additional functions. However the main protocols cannot be copyrighted.

And a good answer that's pretty well where it is now with DCC.
What would be the nominal range of the hand held Scorpius throttle? I ask this because of frequency bandwidths and allotments which can differ in each country. There are allowances of free operation with very low power over very short ranges where it does not coincide with frequencies allotted to emergency services, this can also differ between countries. The laws pertaining to Radio frequency transmission can vary widely between different countries, do you see a problem with this aspect?
There are bands of frequencies dedicated to the use of model aircraft and boats etc., that have a much greater range. If operating in these bands, does Scorpius have sufficient shielding to prevent spurious operation of a Scorpius controlled model? I guess a better question what are the chances of interference?

cheers
Willis

 

[injectorman]

Outside range is over 160 metres, inside over 25 metres minimum. More in big halls etc.
To this day no interference ever.
It has auto channel hop should it detect anything on that channel.
It also has encryption, which stops hacking.
2.4GHz is a public band and emergency services dont use public bands.


Rick

 

[injectorman]

ok ok lets call it 100% wireless DCC (with Scorpius protocols overlay)

 

[LotoQuestions]

Scorpius Slot-car status

What is the status of the Scorpius system for slot-cars?

The web site ..........
news ends in Sept 2009
testimonials 4 with the last being 1 in June 2009
Webshop implies it is ready Jan 2010

Seems to be little 2010 discussion of Scorpius found by Google.

So are all components in production or????

ken

 

[injectorman]

http://www.slotforum.com/forums/index.php?showforum=129

Scorpius has its own sub forum on Slotforum.com

Here you will find all the discussion on Scorpius.

Currently in production, in fact the factory should be producing PCBs within 4 weeks.

I put it back a year because we decided to go all the way. We fully upgraded the controllers mechanics, designed and developed our own dongle and light board, upgraded the mobile decoder, redesigned the mobile decoder, then redeveloped the controller yet again. The theory being you only get one chance at a first impression.

Rick

PS Webshop being upgraded before release.

 

[Espeefan]

I have followed this thread with interest and some input. Bridging to DCC may just do the trick for you. Now I have one other question (OK maybe a couple but they all relate to the same thing: Cost

I looked over on You tube, saw the system, saw it operated, saw you, and I went to the site and looked at prices. $40.00 (Austrailian) for a receiver (decoder in DCC-ese ) that's a little steep, when you consider that we can get non sound decoders for less than $20.00 for non sound units. Any idea what a sound capable receiver (decoder) would cost yet?

The controller is $180.00 Australian. What changes would be made for train control, and what would those changes do to the controller price? Right now you're pretty close to an upper end DCC throttle such as the Digitrax DT-402 or NCE Pro Cab throttle, both of which do everything.

I think decoder/receiver pricing might be a challenge, as this is what all of us are going to look at with our fleets of 100-200 locomotives. Some have less, of course, but we'll all look at the cost to change over starting at the locos. DCC really got popular when the $50.00 per non sound decoder barrier was broken. When it dropped to the $20-25.00 range it was less of a blow to those of us with large rosters. Looking forward to your thoughts.

 

[injectorman]

I have followed this thread with interest and some input. Bridging to DCC may just do the trick for you. Now I have one other question (OK maybe a couple but they all relate to the same thing: Cost

I looked over on You tube, saw the system, saw it operated, saw you, and I went to the site and looked at prices. $40.00 (Austrailian) for a receiver (decoder in DCC-ese ) that's a little steep, when you consider that we can get non sound decoders for less than $20.00 for non sound units. Any idea what a sound capable receiver (decoder) would cost yet?

The controller is $180.00 Australian. What changes would be made for train control, and what would those changes do to the controller price? Right now you're pretty close to an upper end DCC throttle such as the Digitrax DT-402 or NCE Pro Cab throttle, both of which do everything. [/QUOTE]

It would of course involve any necessary changes. Don't be fooled by less buttons, its a very powerful tool with clever menu system. Theres one thing Scorpius has the others don't is the ability to reflash firmware. This way the controller can have the latest and greatest functions pretty much free.
Of course you don't need a trigger but is the handle such a bad idea, are the current cabs well balanced and fit comfortably in hand while hand is pretty much in the relaxed position? Scorpius controller weighs 178 grams with batteries, what sort of weight are we comparing to?
Also possible on the controller is reconfiguring what the 3 buttons can be used for. What would be the top ten functions triggered by button pressing somewhere on the cab? Would I need more than 3. Or you could scroll using trim pot and lcd screen to function x , then press button. Or I can add more buttons, or change to a key pad, larger screen.

I think decoder/receiver pricing might be a challenge, as this is what all of us are going to look at with our fleets of 100-200 locomotives. Some have less, of course, but we'll all look at the cost to change over starting at the locos. DCC really got popular when the $50.00 per non sound decoder barrier was broken. When it dropped to the $20-25.00 range it was less of a blow to those of us with large rosters. Looking forward to your thoughts.

Of course. I often think of this. My brother bought one of first mobile phones, $6500, I just picked one up for $59, a cheapie for work. It will happen.

Still, my system came in at $1570, Im guessing 33% cheaper than an equivalent DCC system. Of course the overall picture (cost) is whats important.
If you had 200 locos of course it becomes an issue but then Im guessing 200 locos could cost anywhere from $10K to $100K, so in the picture its neglible?

In 5-10 years I suspect the wireless chip will be generally only $5 dearer in the shops (to pay for the radio chip). Right now its the old rule 'scale of quantities'. Money is a concern, but also what do you get for that money is is the opposite end of the equation.

Rick

 

[tankist]

Theres one thing Scorpius has the others don't is the ability to reflash firmware. This way the controller can have the latest and greatest functions pretty much free.

are you sure others don't have it? (or even need it)

Of course you don't need a trigger but is the handle such a bad idea, are the current cabs well balanced and fit comfortably in hand while hand is pretty much in the relaxed position? Scorpius controller weighs 178 grams with batteries, what sort of weight are we comparing to?

yes, current cabs are well balanced and fit comfortably. whether controller weight is 178g or exactly 231g is irrelevant. ground-up redesign of your controller is required to be of any use in MRR.

Also possible on the controller is reconfiguring what the 3 buttons can be used for. What would be the top ten functions triggered by button pressing somewhere on the cab? Would I need more than 3.

powercab pictured. do you still have question whether more then 3 buttons needed?

 

[injectorman]

are you sure others don't have it? (or even need it)

I believe Digitrax do offer some upgradeability. Thats were wireless comes in, any end user can reflash it in 30 seconds in 6 mouse clicks. Need it? Thats up to the end user but the benefits are obvious, as you know software in trains will continue forever, so this is a way of future proofing your investment.

yes, current cabs are well balanced and fit comfortably. whether controller weight is 178g or exactly 231g is irrelevant. ground-up redesign of your controller is required to be of any use in MRR

.

To me weight is critical if you're going to be using it a fair bit.
Agreed ground up reconfiguring of casing needed. But for me much fewer buttons. Essentially I can see the controller hardware similar in terms of simplicity to the existing controller.

Im not sure that cab is ergonomically the most comfortable until I try one, but I will think about this.

38 buttons? No way Hose, way over the top for my liking although I know its a top product.

Even my mobile phone only has 17 buttons

I can do all that and more with one trim pot to scroll left and right through menu and alpha numeric selection and button to select, enter, exit. It can do the most complex task or configuration. Soon we will be adding light configuration.
Of course Ill need to add some more buttons for commonly used functions but simplicity for me is crucial, and less hardware means a lower price.

In terms of the cost mentioned in the previous post you forgot to mention the receiver, (Scorpius doesnt need one as the signal goes direct to loco) which when added in is considerably more expensive.

However the NCE PowerCab needs power to operate, wire. So therefore it is not even wireless. Its tethered!!!
You cannot move around the track without unplugging and connecting to the next point!
So what IS the point? There is no advantage that I can see. Comparing this to Scorpius and costs is not that relevant, well maybe somewhat, but they are very different products which I dont think come into the same category.

The DT402D also runs off track power?


The secret is Scorpius' low energy consumption and auto power off function which allows 2 x AAA batteries to last for 2 months at least.



Rick

 

[tankist]

To me weight is critical if you're going to be using it a fair bit.
Agreed ground up reconfiguring of casing needed. But for me much fewer buttons. Essentially I can see the controller hardware similar in terms of simplicity to the existing controller. 38 buttons? No way Hose, way over the top for my liking although I know its a top product. I can do all that and more with one trim pot to scroll left and right through menu and alpha numeric selection and button to select, enter, exit

weight difference of 20-50 grams is not critical.

i understan you would rather pack everything into menus and save on hardware materials but I like actual buttons. and i hate when manufacturers make it sound as if they were doing it in care of customer.

However the NCE PowerCab needs power to operate, wire. So therefore it is not even wireless. Its tethered!!!

it is sad that instead of adressing actual conserns you would rather try and divert the conversataion into neatpickiness. what i showed is typical MRR controler. yes the particular device powercab is obviously thethered as the unit also houses the booster. but proCab-radio looks exactly the same with antena.
(just in case, the MRC unit also comes as wireles in its advance form)
thats how controller looks - lots of buttons

i guess i will be seeing how your solution does in not so distant future.
good luck

 

[Espeefan]

How about if we look at functions?

Racing slotcars you accelerate, decelerate, and change lanes from what I have seen. if I missed any forgive me. I have raced slotcars, but not with a digital system, and the game looks pretty much the same as it always has from what I have seen.

You would do a variotion of those three things with trains, plus direction change, momentum, consisting, control of sounds (whistle/horn; dynamic brake, coupler clash, doppler fade and others), and more. You'd need to carefully set up the menus so that users won't have to page through too many menus to access features.

 

[injectorman]

weight difference of 20-50 grams is not critical.

i understan you would rather pack everything into menus and save on hardware materials but I like actual buttons. and i hate when manufacturers make it sound as if they were doing it in care of customer.


it is sad that instead of adressing actual conserns you would rather try and divert the conversataion into neatpickiness. what i showed is typical MRR controler. yes the particular device powercab is obviously thethered as the unit also houses the booster. but proCab-radio looks exactly the same with antena.
(just in case, the MRC unit also comes as wireles in its advance form)
thats how controller looks - lots of buttons



i guess i will be seeing how your solution does in not so distant future.
good luck

Thanks, but I wont need luck, I just need to deliver what I say it can do

What Ive learnt about buttons is some people detest them, some people love them. So perhaps halfway in between. I thinking an LCD screen, 3 trim pots and say 9 buttons (3x3).



Sorry mate I didnt nitpick, I just went to the website and thats what it said. So the ProCab has batteries, very cool, so that IS wireless

Development of such a project would take 2-3 year to perfect and obviously cost. But you have to start somewhere.

I hope to compile a list soon of all the possible functions any MRR enthusiast could ever want, and to do that Ill need to break it up into modules, like loco config, light config, sound config and from there compile more detail.



Rick

 

[injectorman]

How about if we look at functions?

Racing slotcars you accelerate, decelerate, and change lanes from what I have seen. if I missed any forgive me. I have raced slotcars, but not with a digital system, and the game looks pretty much the same as it always has from what I have seen.

You would do a variotion of those three things with trains, plus direction change, momentum, consisting, control of sounds (whistle/horn; dynamic brake, coupler clash, doppler fade and others), and more. You'd need to carefully set up the menus so that users won't have to page through too many menus to access features.

Youre forgiven

The functions now available for slot or soon available are not as much as trains but its also pretty out there.

Go
Stop
Change Lanes
Throttle curve config
Brake configID controller and car config
Traction control config
Simulated tyres
Simulated fuel
Simulated tank weight
Preferred best race line (auto)
Kiddies mode, set max. speed
Ghost/pace car programs
Pit lane detection, auto guide car into selected pit bay
Safety cars, auto.
False start detection
Penalty implementation auto
Light config, headlights, hi-beam, taillights, brake light, spare.
Lane changer config, liven flipper polarity, solenoid voltage adjust, ramp up time, power on time, anti collision config, ID config
Race management programs.

and more.

Agreed the menu must be user friendly.

Rick