Returning to my old Granite Gorge and Northern layout

[GandG_North]

Hi everyone. 40 some years ago I built the benchwork and put down the cork roadbed and HO Atlas Customline track, for the Granite Gorge and Northern railway. Then stopped. I've only ever run 1 loco on just a very small part of it for about 5 minutes. Other than that, all I've done with it is moved it whenever we moved.
Seems to be a common theme, but I'm now kinda retired and bored and was looking for something to do since here in Ohio it is winter and my favorite hobby, fishing, is on hold until April, when I can get my pontoon boat back on the lake.
After watching many model railroading YouTube videos (thank you, Jerry Hensler et al), I have the bug again. I've also discovered that this is not necessarily an inexpensive hobby, with DCC now an option (back when I built my layout, it was good old DC. I have never gotten around to buying or doing any wiring or controls).
So, before I spend any more money, I want to get a good idea of what I'm looking at as far as an outlay of cash is concerned. I want to pull up all the old cork roadbed and replace the sectional Atlas track and turnouts with Peco flex track Code 83 and Peco turnouts. All this stuff is 40 years old and could use a freshening. I also have cork roadbed under all the track, but some of it is "yard" and siding track, and I've since learned that track in those areas should be at ground level. So that's an area I need to do some thinking on.
I also want to see how many of my turnouts sit over top of my benchwork framing and will present a challenge to mounting a turnout machine underneath. So, I purchased a copy of AnyRail and I'm in the process of laying out my benchwork and track work. I'd like to keep my track radii as large as possible, but it looks like I'm going to be using a lot of 18" stuff, which is what the original GGN track layout used. I still have all my HO railroading books that I bought back when I started. I hoped to incorporate some easements (that was a new term to me), but I don't think this layout will allow.
I understand (now, 40 years later) that the Granite Gorge is not a "simple" layout for beginners, but this is what I have and want to keep going with. I am planning on incorporating the improvements that Larry Amstrong laid out in his book, "Track Planning for Realistic Operation", which will be more challenging with the reversing loops.
I want to get the trackwork done, keeping in mind that I'll plan on using DCC if and once I get that far, and go from there. I haven't decided which era yet (the fact I can't use larger radius might force my hand there, from the sounds of things), and I'm not decided if I will use the mountainous terrain that the original Atlas layout showed, although they state that mountains are the reason for the crowded condition of this layout. But all that is way down the road. I only have a few pieces of rolling stock, one in kit form that I must have bought 40 years ago and haven't taken it out of the box. I have one old DC diesel locomotive and haven't found my power pack yet.
Happy Rails, everyone!

 

[BigGRacing]

Welcome back and sounds like a great project to watch.

 

[beiland]

Hi everyone. 40 some years ago I built the benchwork and put down the cork roadbed and HO Atlas Customline track, for the Granite Gorge and Northern railway. Then stopped. I've only ever run 1 loco on just a very small part of it for about 5 minutes. Other than that, all I've done with it is moved it whenever we moved.
Seems to be a common theme, but I'm now kinda retired and bored and was looking for something to do since here in Ohio it is winter and my favorite hobby, fishing, is on hold until April, when I can get my pontoon boat back on the lake.
After watching many model railroading YouTube videos (thank you, Jerry Hensler et al), I have the bug again. I've also discovered that this is not necessarily an inexpensive hobby, with DCC now an option (back when I built my layout, it was good old DC. I have never gotten around to buying or doing any wiring or controls).

Unless you plan on trying to run multiple locos at the same time, I'd think twice about making it DCC at this point. Plain old DC works works quite well, particularly if you add the additional feeder and bus wires like you may eventually use with DCC. You can also divide the layout up into several power districts, and use several DC transformers to power up locos in those individual districts.

You will also buy yourself time to really look thru the big selection in DCC equipment, and you might find an estate sale with some nice used gear.

So, before I spend any more money, I want to get a good idea of what I'm looking at as far as an outlay of cash is concerned. I want to pull up all the old cork roadbed and replace the sectional Atlas track and turnouts with Peco flex track Code 83 and Peco turnouts.

If you have nickle silver rail (not brass), I would give second thoughts to pulling up all that track and switches you have laid down. There is nothing wrong with good old code 100 rail. Perhaps you could consider just replacing the section track with flex track, but not the turnouts. With a little extra effort at fine tuning what you have, you can havea nice runninf layout with what you already have. Get yourself a decent resistance solder unit and solder most all your track joints together ,...paying particular attention to elimination 'kinks' in those joints,...either horizontal or vertical ones. Then when you add the extra feeder wires you will end up with a good running layout. Perhaps you could find someone who you could borrow a unit from (club member?) who has alrady finished their layout.

Surprisingly there are a lot of good locos out their that will operate on 18" curves. Just don't buy some steamers with 4 inline big drivers.

The limited supply of new track and switches at this time will make this effort of replacing what you have both difficult and expensive at this time in the hobby.

All this stuff is 40 years old and could use a freshening. I also have cork roadbed under all the track, but some of it is "yard" and siding track, and I've since learned that track in those areas should be at ground level. So that's an area I need to do some thinking on.

I would cobsider not pulling up the old cork to get a flat surface,...just fill in between the cork to get that level surface.

NS track can be brought back to life with proper refinishing and conditioning. You might be surprised that it is primarily only the the railhead that needs to really in good shape (and actually only the inner edges of that railhead). A very nice super fine emory paper can be used on this railhead, but be careful to make sure is VERY FINE abrasive. The disregard a lot of old time thinking about all the rail cleaning technics. Clean the track with Mineral Spirits, and need add little dabs of graphite (pencil lead) to the railhead for great conductivity.

I also want to see how many of my turnouts sit over top of my benchwork framing and will present a challenge to mounting a turnout machine underneath. So, I purchased a copy of AnyRail and I'm in the process of laying out my benchwork and track work. I'd like to keep my track radii as large as possible, but it looks like I'm going to be using a lot of 18" stuff, which is what the original GGN track layout used. I still have all my HO railroading books that I bought back when I started. I hoped to incorporate some easements (that was a new term to me), but I don't think this layout will allow.

If you installed Atlas switches with their switch machines I would recommend controlling them with a capacitor discharge unit(s) like I did here:
https://forum.mrhmag.com/post/contr...4632?highlight=central+midland&pid=1331019458

https://forum.mrhmag.com/post/the-c...mstrong-atlas-plan-29-12207702?pid=1331220039

https://forum.mrhmag.com/post/the-c...mstrong-atlas-plan-29-12207702?pid=1331379889

I understand (now, 40 years later) that the Granite Gorge is not a "simple" layout for beginners, but this is what I have and want to keep going with. I am planning on incorporating the improvements that Larry Amstrong laid out in his book, "Track Planning for Realistic Operation", which will be more challenging with the reversing loops.
I want to get the trackwork done, keeping in mind that I'll plan on using DCC if and once I get that far, and go from there. I haven't decided which era yet (the fact I can't use larger radius might force my hand there, from the sounds of things), and I'm not decided if I will use the mountainous terrain that the original Atlas layout showed, although they state that mountains are the reason for the crowded condition of this layout. But all that is way down the road. I only have a few pieces of rolling stock, one in kit form that I must have bought 40 years ago and haven't taken it out of the box. I have one old DC diesel locomotive and haven't found my power pack yet.
Happy Rails, everyone!

If you have a local train show, you might consider a visit there,...OR a local club layout.

BTW, I rebuilt an even larger atlas plan years ago,...the Central Midland
https://forum.mrhmag.com/post/the-c...9-12207702?highlight=central+midland&trail=25

https://forum.mrhmag.com/post/the-c...7702?highlight=central+midland&pid=1331218382

 

[BigGRacing]

If I had of had just a couple more feet, that central midland build was one of the first model railroad build stories that I read. It was awesome watching that build story !

 

[GandG_North]

Unless you plan on trying to run multiple locos at the same time, I'd think twice about making it DCC at this point. Plain old DC works works quite well, particularly if you add the additional feeder and bus wires like you may eventually use with DCC. You can also divide the layout up into several power districts, and use several DC transformers to power up locos in those individual districts.

You will also buy yourself time to really look thru the big selection in DCC equipment, and you might find an estate sale with some nice used gear.

I don't have a lot of knowledge of train operations (you could say none), or wiring a model railroad (or wiring anything for that matter). I would like to run multiple trains at some point, though, and that, with the addition of the reversing loops, leads me to believe that DCC would come into the picture at some point. But I realize there's a not-so-minor investment involved there, and I kinda expect that the first time I run electrons through my rails, it may just end up being good 'ol DC. But when I do run drops and switch wiring, I plan on keeping DCC in mind.

If you have nickle silver rail (not brass), I would give second thoughts to pulling up all that track and switches you have laid down. There is nothing wrong with good old code 100 rail. Perhaps you could consider just replacing the section track with flex track, but not the turnouts. With a little extra effort at fine tuning what you have, you can havea nice runninf layout with what you already have. Get yourself a decent resistance solder unit and solder most all your track joints together ,...paying particular attention to elimination 'kinks' in those joints,...either horizontal or vertical ones. Then when you add the extra feeder wires you will end up with a good running layout. Perhaps you could find someone who you could borrow a unit from (club member?) who has alrady finished their layout.

I went and took a closer look at my track, and it appears to be nickle silver. There's a few obvious brass pieces, not many, and they are the short 1" or 2" long sectional pieces. The large majority of my track is still in place on the layout, but with the moves it's had to endure, there are some damaged and missing sections that need work.

Surprisingly there are a lot of good locos out their that will operate on 18" curves. Just don't buy some steamers with 4 inline big drivers.

The limited supply of new track and switches at this time will make this effort of replacing what you have both difficult and expensive at this time in the hobby.

Yes, you speak the truth on that. Have you noticed a bump up in pricing? This limited supply thing seems to have hit all the popular pastimes (fishing, photography, etc).

I would cobsider not pulling up the old cork to get a flat surface,...just fill in between the cork to get that level surface.

Yeah, I figure it will be something like removing the cork from under the sidings and sliding a piece of similar thickness foam underneath, then blending it in to the scenery.

NS track can be brought back to life with proper refinishing and conditioning. You might be surprised that it is primarily only the the railhead that needs to really in good shape (and actually only the inner edges of that railhead). A very nice super fine emory paper can be used on this railhead, but be careful to make sure is VERY FINE abrasive. The disregard a lot of old time thinking about all the rail cleaning technics. Clean the track with Mineral Spirits, and need add little dabs of graphite (pencil lead) to the railhead for great conductivity.

If you installed Atlas switches with their switch machines I would recommend controlling them with a capacitor discharge unit(s) like I did here:
https://forum.mrhmag.com/post/contr...4632?highlight=central+midland&pid=1331019458

https://forum.mrhmag.com/post/the-c...mstrong-atlas-plan-29-12207702?pid=1331220039

https://forum.mrhmag.com/post/the-c...mstrong-atlas-plan-29-12207702?pid=1331379889

I never purchased any switch machines. That's one reason I like the Peco switches with the springs to keep the switch in position. Also, some of the switch locations seem very close to the neighboring track, and I'm not sure an Atlas type switch would even fit in the space. Thanks for the links, though.

If you have a local train show, you might consider a visit there,...OR a local club layout.

When I started this layout back in the 80s', like many of us, I purchased everything from the local hobby shop that was downtown. I miss that place; naturally, it closed years ago. There was another hobby shop in a nearby town, 15 minute drive, but I believe the owner passed away a couple of years ago and the shop is empty. Now the nearest shops are 45 - 60 minutes away. Once in a while there are some local train shows, but with the pandemic, a lot of that is on hold. I haven't yet found a local club, although I believe there are one or two around.

BTW, I rebuilt an even larger atlas plan years ago,...the Central Midland
https://forum.mrhmag.com/post/the-c...9-12207702?highlight=central+midland&trail=25

https://forum.mrhmag.com/post/the-c...7702?highlight=central+midland&pid=1331218382

Very nice! That's a lot of wiring! I'll check out your links.

Thanks, Beiland, for taking the time to respond. I appreciate the help and suggestions. Economic forces may push me into some re-thinks.

 

[beiland]

A lot of that wiring was because I was trying to keep 3 systems possible, (just in case I screwed up the original wiring I could revert back,...but never had to do that). If I recall the original wiring system included a separate system for the yard verses the rest of the layout, and some reversing sections.

On my current double deck design I have 4-5 power districts and 4 reversing sections. I am wiring it for DCC operation eventually, but at present time I am able to control the bottom deck with its 2 major districts and 3 reversing sections ,..with the use of 3 DC transformers. (and please understand I am NOT an electronics wizard by any stretch of imagination!). It does require some careful thought in hooking up the wires, but not impossible if you understand a few basics and have a decent little (cheap) meter.

 

[Iron Horseman]

I've also discovered that this is not necessarily an inexpensive hobby, with DCC now an option (back when I built my layout, it was good old DC. I have never gotten around to buying or doing any wiring or controls).

The increase in cost is not necessarily DCC. Have you priced a good DC controller lately. The one I want is $300. Yipes! You will find the quality of the locomotives made an order of magnitude advancement in drive quality in 1984 when vendors started putting can motors and precision gears into their units. Then again in the increase in detail due to new formulations of plastic. For the most part now there are metal wheels on cars instead of plastic, and the horn hook couplers are gone. And of course don't forget the huge inflation factor.

I want to pull up all the old cork roadbed and replace the sectional Atlas track and turnouts with Peco flex track Code 83 and Peco turnouts. All this stuff is 40 years old and could use a freshening. I also have cork roadbed under all the track, but some of it is "yard" and siding track, and I've since learned that track in those areas should be at ground level.

I understand wanting to lower the sidings and the yard for prototypical reasons, but I don't understand the rush to pull up the cork roadbed unless it has gotten brittle and crumbly. I still use cork roadbed as my primary method.

Likewise, I understand the desire for Peco track. I discovered it in N-scale in 1983. But in HO I still use a lot of Altas due to the cost. Have you priced turnout's lately. Also Yipes.

I understand (now, 40 years later) that the Granite Gorge is not a "simple" layout for beginners, but this is what I have and want to keep going with. I am planning on incorporating the improvements that Larry Amstrong laid out in his book, "Track Planning for Realistic Operation", which will be more challenging with the reversing loops.

DCC auto reversing units will make the Granite Gorge much easier to wire.

I only have a few pieces of rolling stock, one in kit form that I must have bought 40 years ago and haven't taken it out of the box. I have one old DC diesel locomotive and haven't found my power pack yet.

Nothing wrong with 40 year old equipment. Some of mine is 60 years old. A bit more is 50 years old. And lots is 30-40 years old.

 

[GandG_North]

The increase in cost is not necessarily DCC. Have you priced a good DC controller lately. The one I want is $300. Yipes! You will find the quality of the locomotives made an order of magnitude advancement in drive quality in 1984 when vendors started putting can motors and precision gears into their units. Then again in the increase in detail due to new formulations of plastic. For the most part now there are metal wheels on cars instead of plastic, and the horn hook couplers are gone. And of course don't forget the huge inflation factor.

TBH, I haven't priced out DC components yet. I've been distracted by all the DCC videos on YouTube, like a dog that sees a squirrel. I'm thinking at first this is going to be DC, and if I can find my 40+ year old power pack, I should be able to run at least one train well enough to prove out my track work as it gets put down.

I understand wanting to lower the sidings and the yard for prototypical reasons, but I don't understand the rush to pull up the cork roadbed unless it has gotten brittle and crumbly. I still use cork roadbed as my primary method.

The cork roadbed seems like it has hardened with age. With the revised layout I'm creating as a possibility, the majority of it would at least need relocated. I don't know how it will handle being pulled up. All roadbed and track are nailed into place with 8-penny nails (just kidding), no adhesive used anywhere. I still intend on using cork roadbed

Likewise, I understand the desire for Peco track. I discovered it in N-scale in 1983. But in HO I still use a lot of Altas due to the cost. Have you priced turnout's lately. Also Yipes.

Yes, and unfortunately my new layout has 1 or 2 or 3 curved layouts, which are even more dear. I did a rough estimate a week ago for a somewhat direct replacement of all the track, keeping the current configuration, and it's approaching $500 <sigh>, before shipping. So the Peco option might not be an option. Kinda like that 4th down play that KC pulled at the end of the first half on Sunday against the Bengals.

DCC auto reversing units will make the Granite Gorge much easier to wire.

Yes. Just have to figure out where they go, how many I need, if I need frog juicers, $$$.

Nothing wrong with 40 year old equipment. Some of mine is 60 years old. A bit more is 50 years old. And lots is 30-40 years old.

I agree. I just meant that if I were to jump to N-Scale for the layout, I don't yet have a large enough investment in HO-scale stock that it would hurt to "discard".

Thanks, Iron Horseman.

 

[GandG_North]

Here's a photo of the old GGandN as it sits in my basement today.
This is shown propped up against a wall in my basement, the floor is at the bottom of the photo, and I don't have the two halves bolted together yet.
And a screenshot of my new layout from AnyRail. Still a work in progress. Everything is flat, no grades yet.

 

[BigGRacing]

Here's a photo of the old GGandN as it sits in my basement today.
This is shown propped up against a wall in my basement, the floor is at the bottom of the photo, and I don't have the two halves bolted together yet.
And a screenshot of my new layout from AnyRail. Still a work in progress. Everything is flat, no grades yet.

Are you able to attach a link for that anyrail file by chance ?

 

[GandG_North]

Are you able to attach a link for that anyrail file by chance ?

Yes, gladly.
Still a work in process, there's some things I need to fix.
I did get a chance to put in some elevations. The area on the right-hand side with all the switches needs some work. Not sure that configuration is going to work. I can see turnouts being set on a grade, but a grade with a slope to it, ehhh, I don't know.

 

[Iron Horseman]

Yes. Just have to figure out where they go, how many I need, if I need frog juicers, $$$.

There are two major ways to wire this, but if you think of it primarily as a double track figure-8, then the reversers would be as below.

Then remember "need" is a relative term. If you don't have locomotives that stall in the frogs of the turnouts then you don't need to power them. Plus there are plenty cheaper ways to power a frog then buying a special circuit to do it.

Then also, for a layout this size 90% of all the "wiring" people are talking about for DCC is irrelevant. Busses with massive gauge twisted wires with terminators etc. is stuff for large layouts. For a layout like this I would probably just put in 5 feeders (not counting the reversers) and call it good. Generally no train would ever be more than 5 feet from a feeder.

 

[GandG_North]

Hi
I'm going to post an update in the "Layout Design" forum for those interested.

 

[Chrιstιaη]

Of course, we are very interested !

 

[Smudge617]

Of course, we are very interested !

You may have a long wait Christian, this member hasn't been seen since May 2022 Pity, looked an interesting thread.

 

[GandG_North]

I'm still here! Yes, I haven't posted for a while. I'm trying to get my model railroading mojo back. I purchased and installed and wired some controls for my turnouts and had "completed" most of that work. I wasn't real happy with the end result though, but everything did work and I was able to run a train throughout the whole layout. I'm discovering that whenever I work on the layout, I wish I had an identical twin layout so I can practice on one, then do the final work on the other.
After getting the turnouts functioning, I decided to paint the trackwork. Since all my track is in place, I painted it all by hand using a brush (well, several brushes as they wear out pretty quickly). It took forever. I'd work 3-4 hours a day for probably 12-14 days (not consecutive) before it was done.
I finally finished that task. Then, when I powered everything up, after it had sat idle for probably 6 weeks, all the servos on my turnouts started to go whacky and were (are) uncontrollable. I have a small cardboard mockup I made for a control panel sitting on top of the layout, and the board that controls the turnouts sits in there, and I think what I did while painting the track is press on that board with my belly and I broke a trace on the board.
That just destroyed my motivation, because wiring and installing the servos was a big task, and now I'm looking at doing it again, which requires laying on my back on a concrete floor. I've just been a big baby about the whole thing.
I don't think the control board was faulty. It's from a small manufacturer and I don't want to blame them for something I'm pretty certain was my fault. I haven't made any effort yet to return the board for repair or replacement.
I'll try to post some photos in the near future.
Good to see there is some interest in this project.
It's been so long since I've been here, I forgot about my other thread I have on this project. I'll cut and paste this into that thread in the "Layout Design" forum. Please post any future comments to that thread.

 

[goscrewyourselves]

Welcome to the Forums and back into the hobby. I am probably going to be the "odd man out" here when I say this ...

"if you want to run multiple trains at some point - then get your DCC gear now and learn it. Probably the most user friendly DCC system is a base NCE Starter System.

My logic with this is simple - why spend money on something that you will inevitably take up and put on a shelf to gather dust? Setting up various power districts is far more complicated and confusing from a wiring perspective, DCC is much simpler, infact (and I do not advocate this) depending on the size of your layout you may only need a few feeder wires from your main power bus to the track work. Wiring up your track work IS easy, just a pain in the rear at times.

Bottom line - if you intend to run more than one train at a time, go DCC from the very beginning - it'll save yu money and frustration AND just becaiuse you have DCC, it doesn't mean you have to run two or more trains, it just gives you that option