Questions about JMRI

[Chemdawg]

This is going to be a very winded post here. I'm on a roll to learn as much as I can about this whole DCC and JMRI thing. So here is the background.

I'm working on a layout here that is roughly 10 X 13 HO scale. I will be using all Bachmann EZ-track and turnouts. I have the layout made with Xtrakcad, and am fully prepared to start the track portion of the layout. I will be using a combination of #4 and #6 turnouts, and right/left remote turnouts. I did NOT purchase the DCC turnouts, because at the time, price... But also I had heard alot of horror stories about them. However, this is where all of my quesitons start......

I started playing with JMRI, and I downloaded all of the classes that teach you how to use it. With this being said, I learned alot of neat things that I really would LOVE to take advantage of.

I am using ALL Digitrax products for my DCC and controls. All of my questions are pertaining to my layout and JMRI and Digitrax. This isn't a question of the products I'm using...

SO... Now for the questions:

1: All of my turnouts are remote Bachmann turnouts. I want to convert them over to DCC. Which DCC decoders should I get? I was looking at DS44 and DS64. They both are supposed to control 4 turnouts each. What is the biggest difference, and will they work with the bachmann turnouts?

2: After going through all the classes and reading for the last week on JMRI, I started to learn about Occupancy Detection.. Looking at my Digitrax catalog, they have sensors to detect if your turnouts are occupied or not, so you cannot accdently throw the turnout while there is a train there, causing a derailment.... BDL168 appears to be the Digitrax product that I will need to accomplish this. Am I correct? Or is there other items besides just this that I will need? I assume that 16 detection stations means 16 turnouts?

3: Is there any other items I need to purchase in order to be able to take full advantage of what JMRI has to offer? Right now I have the Digitrax PR3, Digitrax Zephyr 3 amp system. I want to add DCC decoders to my turnouts, and occupancy detection to all my turnouts. That's where I need help figuring out all I need.



Like I said, I'm not debating on the products I'm using. I know there are strong feelings about bachmann track, and maybe even the digitrax products. I have had good luck with all of this, and it's what I'm choosing to use.

Thanks for the help in advance.

 

[fast_ian]

1: All of my turnouts are remote Bachmann turnouts. I want to convert them over to DCC. Which DCC decoders should I get? I was looking at DS44 and DS64. They both are supposed to control 4 turnouts each. What is the biggest difference, and will they work with the bachmann turnouts?

I'm not familiar with these turnouts, but a quick search suggests they're twin-coil machines similar to Atlas - If so, the DS64 will work but not the DS44 [The DS44 is for slow-motion motors only]. If they've got 3 wires the DS64 (set for snap switches) should be good.

2: After going through all the classes and reading for the last week on JMRI, I started to learn about Occupancy Detection.. Looking at my Digitrax catalog, they have sensors to detect if your turnouts are occupied or not, so you cannot accdently throw the turnout while there is a train there, causing a derailment.... BDL168 appears to be the Digitrax product that I will need to accomplish this. Am I correct? Or is there other items besides just this that I will need? I assume that 16 detection stations means 16 turnouts?

The BDL168 does indeed support up to 16 detection sections. However, I *think* you need at least 2, and often 3 detection sections "around" the turnout. [Anyone else done this - Please speak up!] - I'm not familiar with the concept of "protecting the T/O while occupied" - All the BDL168 is gonna do is tell the system there's something in the section, it won't stop the T/O being thrown unless JMRI has that logic - Which it may very well do...... (?) I just don't know how many sections it needs to "work it's magic"......

3: Is there any other items I need to purchase in order to be able to take full advantage of what JMRI has to offer? Right now I have the Digitrax PR3, Digitrax Zephyr 3 amp system. I want to add DCC decoders to my turnouts, and occupancy detection to all my turnouts. That's where I need help figuring out all I need.

Add an RRCirkits "Locobuffer USB" to interface the Loconet to the 'puter and you should be good to start. Then you need 1 DS64 for each 4 T/O's as you said.

I'll be very interested in your progress and hearing what others have to say about using the BDL168 to protect the T/O's.

HTH a little, good luck, cheers,
Ian

 

[Chemdawg]

Thanks for that Ian. The Digitrax PR3 is the interface for the computer. That's why I didn't do the locobuffer USB. I think the locobuffer would have been a better deal price wise, but I'm working with Digitrax... I have been getting good deals on digitrax products. I alloted so much money into this project for electronics. And so far, I have come out ahead in that area. So hence the reason I'm thinking about purchasing the rest of the stuff to use JMRI.

JMRI does have the "Logix" section so that if you have detection sensors, you can keep your turnouts from being thrown while there is a train there. However, I wasn't sure if the 16 section controller is ALL i needed, or if that was just the controller, and there were actual sensors that worked with it that I needed also. If this project is going to cost me an extra 250.00 in electronics to use this, I can deal with that. But if I have a bunch of "hidden" costs that I am not seeing, then I'm not going to get started on this part.

Thanks for the response!

 

[tankist]

. i went with Team digital BlocD8 for detection. digitrax BDL 168 might be more economical per channel in case you need more then 8.

and don't forget the DS64 decoder also has 8 input channels from buttons or turnout position detector switches (needs to be configured for 8 though, from factory 4 are configured as local turnout control over-rides).

I
The BDL168 does indeed support up to 16 detection sections. However, I *think* you need at least 2, and often 3 detection sections "around" the turnout.

that is the case if momentary detectors like in-between the rail IR are used. if the turnout isolated and is sitting on block detection section in itself that would be enough. with that it will of cource require every single piece of rolling stock to have resistance wheels for proper detection . other wise it still can be thrown while ordinary cars are above it. which really is not as much of concern as it might seem.

Add an RRCirkits "Locobuffer USB" to interface the Loconet to the 'puter and you should be good to start. Then you need 1 DS64 for each 4 T/O's as you said.

or just stick to digitrax brand and get their interface (PR3). difference is 20$ if that, negligible in light of all the expenses on station , decoders and other supplies , etc. although for purposes of space conservation loco-buffer indeed looks better.


OP, good luck with the project, it is certainly fun. post progress.

my retractable shelf for all electronics
http://public.fotki.com/tankist/ho-1/progress/dsc-5392.html
http://public.fotki.com/tankist/ho-1/progress/dsc-8964.html
http://public.fotki.com/tankist/ho-1/progress/dsc-5376.html

 

[Chemdawg]

. i went with Team digital BlocD8 for detection. digitrax BDL 168 might be more economical per channel in case you need more then 8.

and don't forget the DS64 decoder also has 8 input channels from buttons or turnout position detector switches (needs to be configured for 8 though, from factory 4 are configured as local turnout control over-rides).


that is the case if momentary detectors like in-between the rail IR are used. if the turnout isolated and is sitting on block detection section in itself that would be enough. with that it will of cource require every single piece of rolling stock to have resistance wheels for proper detection . other wise it still can be thrown while ordinary cars are above it. which really is not as much of concern as it might seem.

Could you expand on this a bit? I'm really dumb when it comes to this, and I'm really trying to educate myself before I purchase any more electronics. What my goal is, is to make something similar to what they had in the seminars I read on JMRI. I would like to make it so that if I have a train in the turnout, I do not want the turnout to be able to be switched. So between that and my turnout DCC controls, I was looking for exactly what I need to purchase.

By the way Tankist, I believe it was your JMRI writeup that got me started on this!!! Very good stuff.

 

[tankist]

block detection tells you if length of track is occupied by sensing any current drawn from it. it can be either locomotive (even just sitting there doing nothing ) or a ordinary car sporting wheelset with soldered resistor to pull some current.

momentary detector is something that tells you whether a particular spot (like exactly above point rails) is occupied. those can be in form of:
1. photoresistor between rails that car shades from light when it is over it.
2. across the rail IR diode + phototransistor coulpe
3. same couple between the ties arranged in IR proximity sensor manner.
4. other solution (i'm not consireing anything else at the moment)

i personnaly don't have momentary detection yet and still researching.
i am looking to build to build something based on this excellent resource http://home.cogeco.ca/~rpaisley4/CircuitIndex.html#Light
if you looking to buy, he advertises his 8 photo-circuit detectors, although i never ordered anything from him (good idea to check if he still makes those).
remember that you still will need some sort of device to take input from all the channels and feed them into loconet bus. for this purpose at the moment (things may change) i plan to get pair of sic24AD devices. this way i also get signal drivers.
again, it is all plans for now.

i'd say divide your project into milestones and attack each one at a time. good luck!

 

[fast_ian]

Thanks for that Ian. The Digitrax PR3 is the interface for the computer. That's why I didn't do the locobuffer USB. I think the locobuffer would have been a better deal price wise, but I'm working with Digitrax... I have been getting good deals on digitrax products.

Fair enough. It wasn't available when I was setting this mess up a few years back. Just to clarify, used with JMRI it can act as an interface to the Loconet or a standalone decoder programmer but not both. Assuming you're going to program decoders & control your layout from/feedback to JMRI, the LB would provide the same interface. "You pays your money & takes your choice". At least it seems to do the job pretty well.

I alloted so much money into this project for electronics. And so far, I have come out ahead in that area. So hence the reason I'm thinking about purchasing the rest of the stuff to use JMRI.

Oh, I'm sure "we" can overspend any budget!

Seriously, it sounds like you're ready to get JMRI up and going - Nothing else needed. At the least you can start reading decoder definitions into it's roster - Even that becomes "fun!"

JMRI does have the "Logix" section so that if you have detection sensors, you can keep your turnouts from being thrown while there is a train there. However, I wasn't sure if the 16 section controller is ALL i needed, or if that was just the controller, and there were actual sensors that worked with it that I needed also. If this project is going to cost me an extra 250.00 in electronics to use this, I can deal with that. But if I have a bunch of "hidden" costs that I am not seeing, then I'm not going to get started on this part.

Yep, Logix is new since I "immersed" myself in it - I know it gets heavily discussed in the JMRI group on Yahoo, but it's currently out of my pay grade..... As tankist noted, the only additional expense after the BDL (or a few others that seem more "respected" if you're prepared to look at others) would be for resistive wheelsets - These are what triggers the unit.

Beyond that, it's "just" a question of blocking your track as appropriate and wiring the sucker up..... Good luck, keep us posted!

Cheers,
Ian

 

[Cjcrescent]

You need to talk with Rexhea here on the forums. He has completely signaled his layout using the Digitrax products.

You can generally find him in the coffee shop or just look up his profile and send him a PM if he doesn't see this.

 

[Chemdawg]

For now I'm going to stick with the JMRI controlled switches and whatnot. I'm going to continue researching. I think this is going to cost me more than my budget allows to add the detection.

Thanks for that info CJCrescent. I'm going to look him up and drop him a message.

 

[RexHea]

Hi Chemdawg!
As already said, the BDL's and equivalents are designed to be used as block occupancy detectors by sensing current flow through the loco motor or resistor wheels of the rolling stock. This information is fed back to your software via Loconet and can be used for traffic control (routes/speed/etc.) or inputs for signal programming. It can be used for many other uses, depending on your software.

Yes, you could use the BDL's 16 detectors on these turnouts, isolating the in/out tracks, but again you would need resistor wheels on every car. As already stated, putting resistor wheels on every car would be very expensive (I only have them on my cabooses).

One question: are you going to program routes or are you going to throw turnouts manually as you go. If manual, you can see all your turnouts or at least know you have a train located in that area. However and for hidden TO's, Anton described the best method for detecting a car over a turnout by using an IR proximity switch/detector.

I don't use JMRI and can't help with programming, but use Railroad&Company software. However, I believe that JMRI does has provision for setting up automated routes and probably can be made to work similar to RRC.
Example: The rule of thumb in RR&Co is not to include turnouts within a occupancy block to prevent any conflict of programmed routes, particularly where crossovers are involved. When a route is selected, blocks are reserved as they become available (usually 2or3 in advance) and any turnouts between two blocks are automatically selected as part of that route. This protects them from being thrown by other auto routes/trains.

A couple of examples:
Route Ashland to Hawkinsville: Block216----Block217----TO37----Block218-->
(A train must clear block217 before another route can select TO37. A time delay of xx seconds before 217 becomes clear)

or split the block (turnout not wired to detector but same detector for both side blocks):
Route Ashland to Hawkinsville: Block216----Block217----TO37----Block217----218---->
(Here, a train's caboose must leave 217 on both sides of TO before TO37 can be reserved by another train.)
NOTE: a turnout can still be manually thrown. But why would anyone do this on a mainline without permission from the dispatcher. Yeah, I know: it does happen......right Carey.

This may all be useless, not knowing exactly what you want to do in the big picture: manual (train order) or automated routes (CTC), ABS, or (??). This is a very big hobby within our hobby and can go in many directions. Take your time with it and always leave room for expansion for more control, better software, signals, automated trains, and (the list is endless). I spent over a year getting setup with mine and continue to go farther with it. I will be glad to help where I can, but need to know more about your plans. Feel free to contact me via PM or right here .

 

[RexHea]

Thinking more on this and not knowing exactly how much programming you will do with JMRI, would a Tortoise Hare help http://tonystrains.com/technews/hare-ng.htm
They are very expensive and way beyond my budget, but can be setup for many different conditions. Also, I don't think they will work with coil equipped TO's, but you may want to consider removing the coils (if possible) and going with Tortoise stall motors. Another piece of good info on this and also ideas on "TO" control: http://www.dccspecialties.com/products/pdf/man-hareng.pdf

I looked again at Digitrax site and didn't see what you were talking about for a specifically designed unit for "TO" occupancy detection only.

 

[tankist]

we are getting a bit of the topic here but it seems that hare is very expensive for what it provides. while it is indeed very convenient decoder with feedback and host of features (auto throw , etc) it is quite expensive per channel. extra features, while useful on ordinary DCC layout,are not justifying the cost since JMRI will take care of all decision making and reacting. imho DS64 is optimal when it comes to per output/input channel cost. and OP seems to be on strict budget

also, REX
i remember you using traincontroller. but now that i know what i know about the subj, i will dare to say that JMRI can be much more powerful yet flexible with that i must add that looking at your solution back then was a big inspiration. i'm in it today because of you

 

[RexHea]

Hi Anton.
Yes, "Hare" is a very expensive option and I only threw is out there as an option for TO control, if JMRI or other software might be intimidating to some. JMRI is a wonderful program with endless capabilities only depending on one's imagination and willingness to learn/do.

My examples using Traincontroller were meant only to show how software can reserve the Turnout in a route, locking it from being used by another route. No external equipment/detectors are needed at the TO. I'm sure JMRI can do this along with most all of these types of software.

Odd that you would say JMRI has more flexibility than Traincontroller, since I was just in that discussion not long ago. It would be interesting to learn what limits you ran across with Traincontroller, as I am far from using every feature and option.

It is difficult to make comparisons since JMRI's more advanced capabilities are dependent on one's skill to program at a lower level than what Traincontroller has already setup in a near endless list of menus (you just have to decipher the manual and try to understand what they are talking about). Both can achieve the same results to do most anything, but to do in JMRI what TC has already installed in menus would take a very very long time. There is absolutely nothing wrong with JMRI and it gets better and better with time. It still seems strange that something so complex with so many capabilities can be offered free. A big thanks to those talented contributors.

BTW:A good example of TCs capability was the testing of Traincontroller Gold on that huge layout in Germany (forgot exact location).

Anton, I am very happy to learn you have chosen this wonderful part of our hobby. It really opens up new doors of operation and FUN. The downside for me is trying to decide each day rather to work on layout scenery, etc. or work on the software. Both are great fun and I hope more can see the benefits and join us.