Peculliar Model Railroad Thought I've Never Seen Addressed


D

DougC

Member
I had a peculiar model railroad thought that I’ve never seen addressed, and wanted to get your opinions.

I live 60 miles from the nearest railroad, so I get my train “fix” with my HO model railroad. Since my three mainline trains have over 60 cars each, when running they individually and collectively create an HO rotating-wheels-on-rail “roar.” And of course the faster the speed the louder the “roar.” I enjoy hearing the roar and obviously the sound volume is proportionate to and considerably less than the 1:1 trains.

Well, the other day I was watching some 1:1 mainline trains on youtube that various railfans have recorded and posted (and I appreciate their work). One thing about these stood out: each train, when going by at track speed, had numerous bang-bang-bang-Bang-Bang-Bang-Bang-BANG-BANG-Bang-Bang-Bang-bang-bang-bang noises when going by – i.e., flat spots on a number of the railcars' wheels.

Now this led me to think: (1) To be prototypical, maybe I should take some railcar wheels and file flat spots on them. [Then I thought, “No, that’s stupid. Besides, you don’t like that noise and do like the roar of round wheels rolling.] (2) I’ve never heard it done, but I wonder if any model railroaders have done this - as you know, the flat-wheel-bang noise IS historically and currently prototypical.

So, have any of you thought about this or done it, or know someone who did? If so how I did it work out? Have you heard of any club doing this? Or does this idea fall into the category of “waste of time” and/or “stupid”?

What say ye? Thanks.

DougC
 
Yeah, that's something I have considered. I would do it with a metal wheel for the better sound effect. Heck, I might do that this afternoon and record it then post it here.
 
Ken - That would indeed be interesting - if you "flattened" one or more metal wheels and tried it. And I'll admit I'd like to hear that if you record and post it. Anyway, thanks for your response. Oh, if you don't mind and if you do your test I (we?) would like to know how you like/dislike the sound.

DougC
 
Does the prototype TRACK have joints or is it continuously welded? The bang-Bang, bang-Bang you hear may be the wheels rolling across the track joints, NOT flat wheels! If there are turnouts near where the sound pickup is located, it could also include the wheels rolling over the flangeways of the turnout. Scale models do NOT have a 1:1 relationship in the weight/dimension that prototypes have. I would NOT flatten any of my wheels! You might try filing or cutting very narrow gaps PART-WAY through the top of the rail every 33 scale feet in a section of track and see if that produces the type of sound for which you are looking.
 
trailrider and Stoker:

Just for clarification, I'm not looking to make either the flat-wheel or rail joint (cutting part-way through the rail tops every 33' or so) noise. On the youtube videos I saw that the trains were running on continuous welded rail, so the noise was indeed flat spots on the wheels. And, as a brakeman on the Missouri Pacific RR for 1.5 years I've heard a lot of both types of noises (part of the track I rode over was ribbon rail and part 33' joints.)

At least for me, the two sounds (regular wheels over track joints, and flat spots on wheels on continuously welded rail) sound entirely different. The track joint sounds are more of a very loud, large click ("clickety clack"), and the flat wheel sounds are very, very loud thud/bangs - almost like a super-fast-paced pile driver. That said, other peoples' hearing may describe these sounds a lot differently than I do.

From your comments it sounds like some model railroad folks do indeed at least like the "clickety clack" sounds of wheels rolling over track joints, and make their own by making a cut in the rail tops every 33 scale feet. I'll admit that the thought of doing that never even occurred to me.

Given all of your responses so far it seems that rail track joint sounds are indeed sometimes imitated, but not flat spots on wheels (unless Ken above does his experiment or someone else chimes and says he does so.)

Thank you for your input.

DougC
 
Interesting discussion. Sounds (pun intended) like a new feature for a decoder to me. I personnally think the squeal of the wheels on a tight curve is the sound that I miss most on a model railroad. The tight curves on the El are particularly loud and sharp but some of the tracks connecting yards in my area can be heard for miles at night.
 
Interesting thought. My guess would be that there just isn't enough weight to recreate the same sound. I think, at most, you'd get the "clickety-click" sound, but that's about it. I think if your rails are on foam it would deaden it enough to make it barely noticeable. You'd probably need a harder, denser surface to get a significant noise.
 
We tried this at our club, and the results were less than satisfactory. The thud-thud-thud of flat wheels does not scale down well. It ends up more like a clackclackclack, tinny sound.
An option would possibly be a sound only decoder with user-loaded sound files in a couple of cars, and they could be configured to make the sound faster as speed increases. Obviously, at $50-100 per flat-wheel car, this could get expensive, fast.
 
You tell your wife what you spend your money on? :D :D :D :D :D

Just kidding Stoker ;)

I think the best way to achieve this effect would be a surround setup under the layout. Something like the Soundtrax or similar. That way a small sub could be incorporated. I know the sound you are referring to. I think it would take at least that to mimic it well.
 
I am planning to mount a decoder into a container and speed sync it to a loco's address / speed one of these days.
Or something like that...
I remember one thing in particular about sleeping on the railway and that is when a container train would go by just as you fell asleep and sure as heck one car would have a flat spot. Seemed the cars with empty containers were the loudest!
 
Hey Stoker, I (and I think a lot of us) would view your wife's response of, "But, I could have had another pair of shoes...", as, well, extremely mild. :)

DougC
 
Rico said:
I am planning to mount a decoder into a container and speed sync it to a loco's address / speed one of these days.
Or something like that...
I remember one thing in particular about sleeping on the railway and that is when a container train would go by just as you fell asleep and sure as heck one car would have a flat spot. Seemed the cars with empty containers were the loudest!
Click to expand...
I think MT coal gons were the second loudest. A friend that's a roadmaster told me after they would install new rail, it seemed to him every train that went by had half of its wheels flat-spotted, and he would cringe with every thud he heard.
 
Best of luck with your quest! In my case, I don't think it worth my time and effort to do something electronic, cut notches every 33 scale feet or put flat spots on some wheels. (My wife is getting tired of me saying, "What?" all the time, and my next major purchase had better be a good hearing aide! :rolleyes: ) I can still "hear that lonesome whistle blow", however!
 
This is actually the first time I've heard this seriously discussed. I spent my first 14 years living next to the Sante Fe mainline in Highland Park, 9 miles from the Los Angeles E. Freight Yards you see in the old Dragnets and the Giant Ant Move "Them", its a little farther to the Passenger facilities. I lived literally next to the tracks in the former Station conductors home, beauitful place too, giant window seats and every 1905 luxury, including asbestos tile roof and sides, water closet I needed a stool to flush, and a later installed modern (1940) indoor toilet. Played army in the workshed/rail car shed behind the big house, concrete everywhere.

With a train every 15 minutes, most 24 hour days, from late steam to all diesel. I heard flat wheels on every freight train, don't remember hearing any flats on passenger trains. Imagine, 4-20 car sections of the Super Chief! A half mile East was the sharpest curve on the line, lining up for the bridge (huge) over the Los Angeles River. I say literally thousands of Sante Fe trains, and a few other "specials" (including UP Business trains) the Big Boys and Challengers couldn't make the curve at the bridge! It was downhill into the yards and uphill out. Locomotives had to really work leaving town. Then it was all "F-units" and GP-7,9's.

Sometimes we'd see burning bearings, and you'd be suprised how much stuff would end up between the rails. Stop it Jim, to much nostalgia. You can see that very house at the Orange Coast Railway Museum (no kidding, I found my carvings inside the big 12 foot window seat), the L.A. light rail used the line now, they have signals, gaurds and everything. We had lights and bells on both sides of the street as far down the line as you could see.
 
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DougC said:
and the flat wheel sounds are very, very loud thud/bangs - almost like a super-fast-paced pile driver. That said, other peoples' hearing may describe these sounds a lot differently than I do.

Given all of your responses so far it seems that rail track joint sounds are indeed sometimes imitated, but not flat spots on wheels (unless Ken above does his experiment or someone else chimes and says he does so.)

Thank you for your input.

DougC
Click to expand...

If this sound was from a flat spot in the wheel, it would be heard at each revolution. If it created a loud banging the vibration would literally cause seroius shaking.

Maybe that is what you are hearing, but a lot of the banging I have heard came in conjunction with slowing or speeding and the taking up of slack in the pins or couplers. As the rate of acc/deaccelleration changed, each consecutive car would have pins mounting the coupler or actual coupler play as the momentum travelled through each train car.

A similar sound would be heard in atriculated logging or construction equipment, as the center pins would wear a banging sound would be created when the weight or center of gravity shifted due to loads or terrain.

lasm
 
Ok, I tried this a couple different ways and neither of them came anywhere near what I was hoping for.
My first try was using a 100 ton hopper with plastic wheels. I filed a flat spot on one axel of wheels then put it on the track to test by hand. It was barely audible at speed. Running slow, I couldn't hear it at all. I added some extra weight to the car, three 9 volt batteries and it increased the sound a little bit, but when adding the car to a string of other hoppers, I couldn't hear it at all.
 
Ken (D&JRailRoad): Thanks for your experiment. I guess it's like some others have said, the noise ratio doesn't scale down - or if it does, as you said, you couldn't hear it at all.

timlange3: Do I use metal wheels on all my cars? No, about 15% metal, 85% plastic. They still make the roar that I like. I'm not even planning to try any other type of wheel noise (aka wheel flat spots or rail joint noises); others have tested and tried to but I think in summary the noise ratios doesn't scale down. And if desired the two types of sounds would need to be digital.

lasm: You're right about the noise that the in and out coupler slack (and pins too) makes in a train. None of mine do that when running because the entire layout is flat. However, I do enjoy hearing that sound, so sometimes before going forward I back the engines up bunching the slack (of all 60+ cars), then move the engines forward just briskly enough to hear and follow the coupler slack running-out sound starting from the head end - each coupler joint makes an HO "click" that is easily audible and easy to follow with the ears and eyes. When I was a brakeman on the MoPac in the late 1970s I experienced that (not only sound but action) a little when riding in the engine (head end brakeman) but REALLY experienced that when riding in the caboose (rear end brakeman) - the conductor and I would always wait for it, you could hear it coming and getting louder, then BAM the caboose jerked forward from zero to about 5mph +/- in a split second. If you were not prepared you would get knocked around. (The engineers always tried to be careful but the terrain (NOT flat in the Missouri Ozarks) usually worked against us in the caboose.)

I appreciate everyone's responses and am open to more.

DougC
 
lasm:

Just a quick note of reminder about my previous post of running out the slack. My term was "...just briskly enough to hear and follow..." You and probably all of us know why my starting speed was "just briskly enough." If the start and go speed was much more than that I (we) would wind up literally string-lining the train (just like the big boys do sometimes.)

DougC
 
I can say that I've noticed the clickety-clack of wagons and coaches over joints in the rail when running trains at my club and found it quite pleasing. Something I wonder if anyone who has a steel viaduct on there layout (a long tall one would probably be most likely to produce) ever heard the rumble as a train has crossed it. I reckon it'd be quite spectacular if it could be simulated so that as the lead loco/s hit the bridge it would start quite suddenly and loud, continue as the train's compliment of cars crossed and then tapered off as the last cars left the bridge, with a few clickety- clacks thrown in.
Think it could be done?
 
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