New To Site-First Layout Design

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DoubleDAZ

Member
Okay, I'm new here and ready for my first go at getting some feedback. I have some experience with HO and N, but being military at the time, never got past the track building stage (2-level layout suspended from ceiling in garage over car hood) and haven't touched things since 1978 (forgot most of what I once knew :)).

After seeing the Bass Pro Lionel Christmas Train, I wanted to see if I could build something that would interest my 4-yr old granddaughter. I quickly decided that Lionel and even HO were too large for my needs. So, I dug out my 30+ yr old N-scale diesel locos (surprisingly they both still ran, but the tires came off a wheel on one and it quit) along with some rolling stock I had stored in the garage. These items were bought at old Kay Bee toy stores back in the mid-'70's, so they're pretty cheap and have Rapido couplers. I added a Bachmann Empire Builder E-Z Track Set along with some extra turnouts/track. These have dummy knuckle couplers without shanks, so I configured a "transition" car with different couplers on each end and can couple both sets of cars.

Anyway, my plan is to build an 8x4 open-top bench to hold a partial 2-level N scale layout. The layout will be in two 4x4 sections using 1x4's with a 16" grid. Holes will be pre-drilled every 8" in the grid and Styrofoam will be used for track beds, grade support, etc. The workbench will be placed on an old dining room table and needs to be portable to allow the table to be used during Easter, Thanksgiving and Christmas. Even though the layout will be open-top, I plan to cut the foam cookie-cutter style and lay the excess foam to fill in the main level. The larger pieces will be removable, as will anything I put on them.

I expect a lot of negative feedback on the attached layout design because I tend to like just running trains as opposed to configuring them in yards/sidings and most of you will probably think it looks like a plate of spaghetti. The layout itself will be 8x4 with 11.25" curves throughout. I may have to reconsider that part though because Bachmann's catalog says their DCC-equipped diesels need 18" curves. I suspect the minimums might also be different for loco's from other companies. My main goal with this layout is 3-fold; to practice, to see if I really want to get back into N-scale model railroading, and to see how I like the E-Z Track. If I upgrade to DCC, I may go with something like a simpler 2-level double-oval with crossings/overpasses and wider curves.

I don't have a theme, era, industry or anything. My initial thought was to model the open road between El Paso and Tucson with service to Phoenix, but that seems difficult to do in only an 8x4 space and still satisfy my current desire to be able to run trains in both directions over the entire layout, etc. I do want a steam and diesel, ala Bachmann's USRA 4-8-2 Light Mountain, Baldwin 2-8-0 Consolidation, EMD SD-45 and F-7 A&B Units. All will be decorated as Union Pacific or Santa Fe.

So, I just folded 2 reverse-loops, wound them around each other, added an oval with a hidden turnout (for occasional continuous running), added a yard/turntable for storage, all mostly for the exercise of learning XTrakCAD. The next step will be to test-assemble various parts of the layout with the track I have on-hand to see if everything will go together. Once that's done and everything checks out, I'll start on the bench work, etc. (Note: I also tried the AnyRail software and it seems I got different results as far as number of tracks needed, etc., on a test layout, but I didn't really check and settled on XTrakCAD anyway).

I currently think of the yard as Tucson, the main-level loop as a horse ranch near Phoenix, and the upper-loop as Flagstaff. Initial goal for scenery is a roundhouse in the yard, some desert landscape on the main level, a horse ranch in the main-loop (shortened/relocated/deleted siding) and removable mountain scenery on the left and right upper-level with a cabin in the loop. I intend to run trains with 4-10 cars plus loco/caboose. I don't currently intend to run more than one train, but would like to eventually if I upgrade to DCC control.

One of the things I need to figure out and add is insulated rail joiners (IRJ) and which ones to buy for the E-Z Track (I have read here that Atlas code 55 joiners will work). I believe I need IRJ's at the legs of the 2 loop turnouts, the yard entry turnout, the legs of the turntable entry turnout, and the legs of the hidden turnout. I'm not sure how to wire the turntable and stalls, but I haven't done any research yet. (Note: I don't know what I'm doing wrong in XTrakCAD, but I can't get it to add IRJ's. I place the cursor over the joint and select Split Tracks, it asks which track to split and then nothing happens when I select a track. I've even tried adding just 2 tracks not connected to anything else and still can't split them).

Here's the layout. For those who don't know XTrakCAD's coloring, the Red tracks denote an incline from 0" at the start of the bottom curve to 4" before the top loop. The Dotted tracks denote those hidden within tunnels. The Dark Blue denotes locos/rolling stock. Please note that I don't follow rules very well, hidden turnouts and such. I have no idea if the 4" incline will work (looks like about 7' in length) and don't know what other buildings, if any, I might add at some point.

Thanks for any and all comments. Also, recommendations for something other than Bachmann E-Z Track, locos, and rolling stock (and reasons why) would be welcome.

Stage2b.jpg
 
Nice write up Dave.(I got your PM BTW). Interesting track plan. To do something like this in HO would take a minimum 8x16'.

I wouldn't worry about the negative feedback, as no ones layout can please everyone else. Its important that it pleases only you. That being said, it is always a good idea to listen to it. There are always a few good ideas strung out in it. You just need to take those gems and decide if you want to use them or not.
 


Carey, I'm not worried about negative feedback, just that I expect some. :)

I'm always open to any feedback and can only learn from it. I saw the reworked plan in your PM (I'll respond further when I read the rest of it) and absolutely love the added siding and redesigned yard/turntable layout. I wanted a passing track and just couldn't "see" it. I'll work on changing the design tonight after we run out to get some take-out. :)

Thanks a lot for the idea and kind comments.
 
No other opinions? That surprises me.

Oh well, guess I'll go with it and see where it takes me. I have decided to go with DCC right off, so I'm now looking at the different systems. I'm leaning toward Digitrax, but will check with LHS to see what others here are buying.
 
Only just found this thread.

I like it, it looks like a lot of fun to operate. I think I'd add a few more spurs here and there, just so it isn't all mainline. The long space by the yard would be great for an industrial complex or something. But, whatever works for you. :)
 
Only just found this thread.

+1

Dunno how I missed it - Particularly given your input on my "situation" :)

Anyway - Yep, a few comments to follow tomorrow. For now;

- Do you have John Armstrongs tome? [Check out "reverting loops"....]
- Turnouts deep inside tunnels makes me really nervous.....
- Totally agree on going DCC from day one - Good move IMHO ;)
- I'm really surprised Bachmann say they need 18" for n-scale - Are you sure about that? [Damn, you may as well go HO!]

Cheers,
Ian
 
Hello

DCC...its only way to go ;) and with reverse loops.. it will cause less headaches!


the track plan gives you alot of mainline so thats nice. On thing that I see that may be a issue is.... you have a nice size yard but only one track to an industry. If your plan is just to run trains in a loop it will work just fine. However if you want to switch and move cars around you may get board quickly. Personaly I like to have sidings and a few industries. that way I can run 2 trains or switch cars around.

Look at some proven track plans that offer more operations. I say this because just about every new Model Railroader draws up his first layout and it seams that its just a looped track plan lacking a plan to operate it. I was just as guilty on my first layout. but back then we had no internet to get advice on it LOL!

Look at some of these plans to see what the pros have made with the use of small space
http://jean-louis.simonet.perso.neuf.fr/Poss_us.htm
http://www.thetrain.org/pages/page1.htm
 
Only just found this thread.

I like it, it looks like a lot of fun to operate. I think I'd add a few more spurs here and there, just so it isn't all mainline. The long space by the yard would be great for an industrial complex or something. But, whatever works for you. :)

Thanks, I've been thinking about that, but I wanted to wait until I actually start laying it out with real track to see how it all fits. I have no idea how accurate XTrakCAD is when it comes to Bachmann's E-Z Track and it's a little hard to envision space on a small computer screen.
 
Re your problem with splitting track on XTrkCad - I think that if you are using sectional track it will only split it where the track sections join each other - try drawing a free hand straight track using the button, and then splitting that - and it should split where you click on the track
Jack
 


+1

Dunno how I missed it - Particularly given your input on my "situation" :)

Anyway - Yep, a few comments to follow tomorrow. For now;

- Do you have John Armstrongs tome? [Check out "reverting loops"....]
- Turnouts deep inside tunnels makes me really nervous.....
- Totally agree on going DCC from day one - Good move IMHO ;)
- I'm really surprised Bachmann say they need 18" for n-scale - Are you sure about that? [Damn, you may as well go HO!]

Well, I originally posted on New Year's Eve and figured maybe folks just didn't see it because of the holiday weekend. That's why I bumped it last noght hoping for some comments.

I do have a book by John Armstrong, 1963's Track Planning For Realistic Operation. If that's the oen you are talking about, I will see what I can find on reverting loops. I also have 3 books by Lynn Westcott and a couple by Russ Larson that I will check too.

I don't like the turnout in the tunnel either, part of why that section for sure will be removable. I should have pointed out though that the switch will only be set once in awhille for continuous running, otherwise it will remain a straight-through section. I just threw it in there in case one of the kids wants to just watch a train go round and round when they visit.

I planned on upgrading to DCC eventually, but PM conservsations with Carey convinced me I might as well start with it to minimize wiring and not waste time/money of toggle switches, etc. The problems I'm having with my set loco really convinced me to go DCC right off more than anything, though I'm still going to add insulated rail joiners where they'd be needed without DCC and start with a couple of diesel locos.

I should have corrected that part about 18" curves. They stuck a page of DCC sets (controller, power supply, and diesel locos) at the end of the DCC section in their catalog. For some reason, I got the idea the locos were N-scale, but they are actuall HO, HO being the next section in the catalog. So that was an error on my part, but Bachmann could have mentioned what scale the locos were on that page, especially since they mentioned minimum radius. Carey noted that was the minimum for HO and that made me realize my error.

Thanks for the comments, I do appreciate them and will definitely read up on the reverting loops.
 
Hello

DCC...its only way to go ;) and with reverse loops.. it will cause less headaches!


the track plan gives you alot of mainline so thats nice. On thing that I see that may be a issue is.... you have a nice size yard but only one track to an industry. If your plan is just to run trains in a loop it will work just fine. However if you want to switch and move cars around you may get board quickly. Personaly I like to have sidings and a few industries. that way I can run 2 trains or switch cars around.

Look at some proven track plans that offer more operations. I say this because just about every new Model Railroader draws up his first layout and it seams that its just a looped track plan lacking a plan to operate it. I was just as guilty on my first layout. but back then we had no internet to get advice on it LOL!

Look at some of these plans to see what the pros have made with the use of small space
http://jean-louis.simonet.perso.neuf.fr/Poss_us.htm
http://www.thetrain.org/pages/page1.htm

I'm a little concerned about boredom too and I'll take a look at those plans. I do have a couple of plan books that I poured through, but none of them offered the mainlines I'm looking for in an 8x4 space. I guess I shouldn't have said "First Layout" in my title, I just meant the first in 30+ years and the first with XTrakCAD. :)

Like I said earlier, I would like to add more siding for interest, but I want to see how accurate the plan is for E-Z Track is to see how much space I really have.

I like the idea of an industry in the space near the yard. My original didn't have that much space there, but Carey suggested the passing siding. That moved the yard/turntable enough to create more space near it and I can probably move it a little more by altering the track running to the turntable.

Thanks for the comments.
 
Depends on what you want to do with the layout. If you want to watch them roll, what you have will work. If you want to switch and have things to do, not enough sidings. One thing to remember: less is more. Beware of the "spaghetti bowl"! You can get so much track that you don't have room for enough of anything else.

On reverse loops: will you be running passenger trains? Some of the newer lighted passenger cars will act like locos and trip reversers. Do you really need two? Just a thought.
 
Re your problem with splitting track on XTrkCad - I think that if you are using sectional track it will only split it where the track sections join each other - try drawing a free hand straight track using the button, and then splitting that - and it should split where you click on the track
Jack

Believe me, I've tried. I am using sectional track and can't get them to split at the joint. When I click on one side of the joint, I get the note to select the 2nd track. However, I can't get it to recognize the 2nd track when I click the track on the other side of the joint. I'll try creating a straight section and splitting that just to see if I can get it to work, but it's not a big deal. I can Photoshop insulated joints or just mark them on paper when I print the layout. I'll keep playing with it, I'm sure I'm just not doing something right.

Thanks for the siuggestion.
 
I was able to split sectional track just now by using the "Split a track" tool and clicking on where the two sections were joined.

However, I rarely use sectional track. Almost everything I design in XTrack I do with the "Modify or extend a track" and "Join two tracks". This allows me to use any radius, use the "Adjacent track" tool, insert turnouts at any point, split the track at any point, and generally have more control over everything I'm doing in the program.
________
Toyota corolla e90
 
Last edited by a moderator:
.....When I click on one side of the joint, I get the note to select the 2nd track.

Are you sure about that? FWIW, in my version "split a track" is a "single click" exercise, but it only works (adds a join) "in the middle" of an existing section (of flextrack) - It seems it "knows" if you've used sectional and that it therefore can't be split.......

As with all things in XTrack - "YMMV"! ;)

Having said that, I can't find anywhere that allows me to add an insulated joiner - How'd you do that?.......

Cheers,
Ian
 
I was able to split sectional track just now by using the "Split a track" tool and clicking on where the two sections were joined.

In an attempt to see what happens in my case (drawn as you describe below) I simply dropped a few 9" straight tracks into the layout - Joined 'em up as expected. However, when I try and split them (be it at the joint or elsewhere) it now tells me "Cannot split turnout track" :eek: There's not a TO anywhere!

This is 4.02 in Linux btw.

However, I rarely use sectional track. Almost everything I design in XTrack I do with the "Modify or extend a track" and "Join two tracks". This allows me to use any radius, use the "Adjacent track" tool, insert turnouts at any point, split the track at any point, and generally have more control over everything I'm doing in the program.

+1

While I'm a newbie, this approach seems to be working.....

Cheers,
Ian
 
Depends on what you want to do with the layout. If you want to watch them roll, what you have will work. If you want to switch and have things to do, not enough sidings. One thing to remember: less is more. Beware of the "spaghetti bowl"! You can get so much track that you don't have room for enough of anything else.

On reverse loops: will you be running passenger trains? Some of the newer lighted passenger cars will act like locos and trip reversers. Do you really need two? Just a thought.

Yes, I know less is more in terms of interest, but I just don't have that much interest in switching right now. Maybe such an interest will develop at some point and then I can always change the main-level, take out the loop, move the yard around, etc. I do have some ideas for a reworked main level and that is part of why I'm going with E-Z Track and foam, easier to change things as I move along. I will run things for some time too before I start adding scenery, so changes won't be that diffucult.

Regarding the need for 2 loops, I just don't like having to back up to turn locos and I like to go every which way throughout the layout, probably to make it look like I'm running more than one train, have a larger layout, etc. One of the things I've thought about is deleting the main-level loop in favor of relocating/redesigning the yard and using the turntable to turn locos.

And, no, I don't intend to run passenger trains, though I do need to give that some more thought. My interest does seem to be more like the scenic railroads out there, like the Durango & Silverton and the Combres & Toltec lines in Colorado. In fact, if I have any theme in mind at all, that would be it.

One of the nice things about XTrakCAD is the ability to simulate running trains. That's why I added the yard in the first place. The first iteration didn't have a place to store extra locos or rolling stock. Even so, the yard is pretty small.

I've even thought about adding a 3rd level with a yard operation below the main level with access on only one side of the layout or even a separate module altogether that could be connected when I want the interest. The 8x4 is not a space limitation per se. I'm using a dining room (which opens to an entry way and living room). The main support is a very sturdy old dining room table and I have to be able to remove the layout 3 times per year to use the table for dining (a novel idea around here :)).

I have to thank you though for making me consider alternatives and just brainstorm a bit. Now that I think about, maybe I should see how I could change the plan to model one of the scenics, maybe the Durango & Silverton (since I've been on that one). While the base of the benchwork needs to be able to sit on top of the dining table, there is no reason I can't extend the upper level out over that space to model Silverton.

In fact, I could easily fit larger benchwork in the space as long as it can sit on the table and be removed. Since I'll be using a simplt 16" grid of 1x4's, there's no reason I couldn't make the grid 6x10 instead of 8x4 and have it extend a foot beyond the table all around.

Instead of using their wye, I could use my reversing loop to turn the train for the return to Durango. BTW, if you've never seen how they do it, you can use Google Maps to see how the track and wye fits right in with the city.

Anyway, maybe I could redesign the yard/turntable into a series of sidings with the turntable using the last siding for in/out travel through the turntable, ala Fig 11-4, pg 97, of Armstrong's book. Rather than storing locos in a roundhouse, it looks like he just uses the turntable to access some kind of service siding. It could be kind of interesting to model Durango on the main level and Silverton on the upper, but I just don't know if I can envision the actual space for scenery. Also, I really didn't want to get into trees, etc., preferring the ease of desert scenery, lots of sand. :)
 


I was able to split sectional track just now by using the "Split a track" tool and clicking on where the two sections were joined.

However, I rarely use sectional track. Almost everything I design in XTrack I do with the "Modify or extend a track" and "Join two tracks". This allows me to use any radius, use the "Adjacent track" tool, insert turnouts at any point, split the track at any point, and generally have more control over everything I'm doing in the program.

Thank you so much, I just got it to work too and added all the gaps, except those for the turntable/roundhouse, need to look up what I need there. Not sure why it didn't work before unless I just wasn't hitting the joint right, a high probability. Anyway, I did have to go through the process twice in some cases to get the gaps to show. Even so, the gaps don't show on hidden tracks unless I change the display from Dash to Normal. That's not a problem and I'm liking XTrakCAD more and more.

I use sectional track because that is what I plan to use for this layout. I used flextrak, etc., in the past and just didn't like all the work. Maybe that's because I was in the Air Force then and didn't have enough time or was concerned about having to move. In this case, the layout will have to be moved 3 times a year, so weight, etc., are a concern. If my benchwork works the way I think it will, I should be able to remove major scenery and then move the benchwork to the bedroom and lay it across the bed.

My original goal was to design the layout in two 4 x 4 sections that would be bolted together. If I do redesign the layout, my goal will be see if I can still do that. As it is now, I think there is too much track going in multiple directions near the halfway point. But, maybe if I mount the yard/turntable on a removable sheet, I could still divide the layout in two. There is a straight section leading into the yard that migth allow for that. If I move the yard to the lower right, ala Armstrong's design, I think I could definitely split it, all in the interest of making it easier to move.
 




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