Hawkesburytrain
Well-Known Member
Do you mean that Digitrax was better for TGF?
What about my other question: "can it be done at a much later date until all my tracks are done, tortoises and toggle switches installed?"
Thanks for your help
NCE layout needs lots of help
- Thread starter Hawkesburytrain
- Start date
Do you mean that Digitrax was better for TGF?
What about my other question: "can it be done at a much later date until all my tracks are done, tortoises and toggle switches installed?"
Thanks for your help
Hi Lloyd,
I realize that there is a lot of information being thrown at you and it can be confusing.
That is not my intention.
- One of the reasons I mentioned the RR-CirKits MotorMan device is because it allows manual control of turnouts regardless of having a computer as part of your system or not. Even if you have added the computer/software to your system the manual control is available and the computer does not need to be on. As mentioned, you can use toggles alone now but you would have to remove them and rewire at some point. I find that I really don't like doing that sort of thing so I most always look for a way to do things so I can use work I do now in a later setup.
- You can install things so every turnout on a layout can be operated manually or by the computer.
- Some DCC systems work better with computer control then others. When connected to a computer the NCE system (and others) do not send certain information that Train Controller needs for the "smoothest" interaction. Other systems, such as Digitrax and, my favorite, the Roco Z21, DO send the needed information. What does "smoothest" mean in this context. Well if I pick up my handheld controller, select a train and begin to operate it, the Z21 sends information to Train Controller informing Train Controller that I am now in control of the train. Train Controller still tracks the position of my train as it moves around the layout. With NCE (and certain others) if I wish to use the handheld controller AND still have Train Controller stay aware of where my train is I have to issue a command on the computer to Train Controller informing Train Controller that I am about to take manual control of a train. This may or may not be a issue to any given person. For me I wanted the "automatic handoff" that I could get by using Digitrax/Z21. I really preferred the NCE handheld but I settled, initially, on Digitrax but then I became aware of the Z21. After testing the Z21 I pulled all my Digitrax gear and replaced it with the Z21 and compatible boosters.
- IMO the one thing that is the hardest to do later is divide the layout into electrically isolated blocks. The gapping of the rails and the running of the feeders is not something I would want to do after I had already laid the track and perhaps even begun scenery. Which is why I mentioned doing it as you build and including ONLY the occupancy detection coils. Even if you never move on to adding computer control the presence of the blocks, feeders and coils will have no negative impact. In fact multiple feeders is a "good" thing.
Frederick
P.S. The RR-CirKits coils are only $1.75 each so adding them and never using them would not be a huge waste of funds.
I realize that there is a lot of information being thrown at you and it can be confusing.
That is not my intention.
- One of the reasons I mentioned the RR-CirKits MotorMan device is because it allows manual control of turnouts regardless of having a computer as part of your system or not. Even if you have added the computer/software to your system the manual control is available and the computer does not need to be on. As mentioned, you can use toggles alone now but you would have to remove them and rewire at some point. I find that I really don't like doing that sort of thing so I most always look for a way to do things so I can use work I do now in a later setup.
- You can install things so every turnout on a layout can be operated manually or by the computer.
- Some DCC systems work better with computer control then others. When connected to a computer the NCE system (and others) do not send certain information that Train Controller needs for the "smoothest" interaction. Other systems, such as Digitrax and, my favorite, the Roco Z21, DO send the needed information. What does "smoothest" mean in this context. Well if I pick up my handheld controller, select a train and begin to operate it, the Z21 sends information to Train Controller informing Train Controller that I am now in control of the train. Train Controller still tracks the position of my train as it moves around the layout. With NCE (and certain others) if I wish to use the handheld controller AND still have Train Controller stay aware of where my train is I have to issue a command on the computer to Train Controller informing Train Controller that I am about to take manual control of a train. This may or may not be a issue to any given person. For me I wanted the "automatic handoff" that I could get by using Digitrax/Z21. I really preferred the NCE handheld but I settled, initially, on Digitrax but then I became aware of the Z21. After testing the Z21 I pulled all my Digitrax gear and replaced it with the Z21 and compatible boosters.
- IMO the one thing that is the hardest to do later is divide the layout into electrically isolated blocks. The gapping of the rails and the running of the feeders is not something I would want to do after I had already laid the track and perhaps even begun scenery. Which is why I mentioned doing it as you build and including ONLY the occupancy detection coils. Even if you never move on to adding computer control the presence of the blocks, feeders and coils will have no negative impact. In fact multiple feeders is a "good" thing.
Frederick
P.S. The RR-CirKits coils are only $1.75 each so adding them and never using them would not be a huge waste of funds.
Last edited by a moderator:
Iron Horseman
Well-Known Member
Well, no and yes. The RB02 is definitely required. The Deluxe Master Cab is not. You can still use the wired cab the system came with for the "master" for programming and the like and use any of the wireless throttles - ProCabr, Cab04r, Cab05r, or Cab06r, for wireless train control. I'm partial to the Cab06.
No, you only need 3 boosters. The main system will provide power for 1 of the blocks. For certain you don't need the SB5, that is for Power Cab systems, so one can unplug the Power Cab Master without impacting the rest of the system. Be careful. There is the Power Cab and the Pro Cab. Don't confuse them. The choice between DB5 and PB5 seems to be whether or not they require external circuit protection or not. The DB5 instructions indicate to use a circuit breaker as below.
There is no "right" just depends on how you want to do it - see above. I think you would only need these if you are using the DB5 or PB5, or some other brand. You could also use automobile brake lamps.
Not unless you want to power accessories from the DCC system. I always recommend against that. Accessories can be controlled in so many other ways DCC seems over kill for such simple stuff.
With signalling, computer control, and centralized dispatching, is where one really falls off the cliff of things really getting truly complicated. Did you want to learn about electricity and electronics? Need?, no. Most layouts never have such things.
Do you want to connect it to your computer? Why?
Last edited by a moderator:
Many folks question the need or purpose of setting up your layout to allow computer control.
I did it for many reasons but here is just one.
I can setup Train Controller to run several trains on different "Schedules".
Schedules determine the route the train takes, speeds, stops, point of departure, destination and more.
While Train Controller is handling these "automatic" trains I can be running a way freight using the handheld throttle, doing switching, etc.
Just as in the real world I have to allow for the comings and goings of the scheduled trains.
The computer prevents any major problems such as collisions.
And sometimes it's great fun just to sit back and watch a 5 or 6 trains running at once all safely under computer control.
Train Controller has an optional add-on which allows using the computer sound capabilities (with suitable speakers) to generate synchronized sound effects.
For example my passenger train schedules, prior to departure from the station, make suitable announcements about the train about to depart, it's destination, etc.
When one of the passenger trains is finishing the schedule as it returns to the station the schedule makes suitable announcements about the train that is arriving, on what track, etc.
Train Controller makes use of multi-channel audio (and speakers suitably placed around the layout) to adjust the volume of each channel so that the sound appears to come for the correct area (more or less), such as the passenger station.
I like it.
I did it for many reasons but here is just one.
I can setup Train Controller to run several trains on different "Schedules".
Schedules determine the route the train takes, speeds, stops, point of departure, destination and more.
While Train Controller is handling these "automatic" trains I can be running a way freight using the handheld throttle, doing switching, etc.
Just as in the real world I have to allow for the comings and goings of the scheduled trains.
The computer prevents any major problems such as collisions.
And sometimes it's great fun just to sit back and watch a 5 or 6 trains running at once all safely under computer control.
Train Controller has an optional add-on which allows using the computer sound capabilities (with suitable speakers) to generate synchronized sound effects.
For example my passenger train schedules, prior to departure from the station, make suitable announcements about the train about to depart, it's destination, etc.
When one of the passenger trains is finishing the schedule as it returns to the station the schedule makes suitable announcements about the train that is arriving, on what track, etc.
Train Controller makes use of multi-channel audio (and speakers suitably placed around the layout) to adjust the volume of each channel so that the sound appears to come for the correct area (more or less), such as the passenger station.
I like it.
Hawkesburytrain
Well-Known Member
Hey everyone, THANKS for all the inputs.
I spend the whole day and night reading on the subject and woke up this morning with a headache....lol....ouch
Why would someone use a computer? Seems that it's mainly use for automating the layout, is this right?
Frederick, I came to the conclusion that it's not my intention to see trains running without an operator, except maybe if I'm by myself doing some operations, I might have the passenger train set up to run continuous. I do want a signalization system later 2-3 years when my layout is more advanced, but for now I do want to operate some trains. I guess with my small knowledge of this hobby and finding answers hard to come by I'll do like Mike said and eat the elephant one bite at a time.
I value your help, but if I was to jump with the computer option, you would need to come and spend a month at my layout. I'll keep reading on the subject and try to understand all the lingo attached to this option.
So for now, computer will have to wait and I'll adjust with time.
I will be going with 1x RB02 Wireless Base, 1x ProCab 524011, 1x CP6 Circuit Protector and 3x PB5 Booster since the Pro5 is also a Booster.
Is this correct and do I need anything else to run operation on the whole layout?
Thank You very much for all your help
I spend the whole day and night reading on the subject and woke up this morning with a headache....lol....ouch
Why would someone use a computer? Seems that it's mainly use for automating the layout, is this right?
Frederick, I came to the conclusion that it's not my intention to see trains running without an operator, except maybe if I'm by myself doing some operations, I might have the passenger train set up to run continuous. I do want a signalization system later 2-3 years when my layout is more advanced, but for now I do want to operate some trains. I guess with my small knowledge of this hobby and finding answers hard to come by I'll do like Mike said and eat the elephant one bite at a time.
I value your help, but if I was to jump with the computer option, you would need to come and spend a month at my layout. I'll keep reading on the subject and try to understand all the lingo attached to this option.
So for now, computer will have to wait and I'll adjust with time.
I will be going with 1x RB02 Wireless Base, 1x ProCab 524011, 1x CP6 Circuit Protector and 3x PB5 Booster since the Pro5 is also a Booster.
Is this correct and do I need anything else to run operation on the whole layout?
Thank You very much for all your help
roofintrash
Well-Known Member
The CP6 is only for 1 booster. You need 4 EB1s instead. Now you could go with 4 CP6s and divide up your power districts into smaller sections or isolate your sidings and such.
Hawkesburytrain
Well-Known Member
Thanks Rick
I thought the CP6 was good for 6 boosters (6 sections)
I thought the CP6 was good for 6 boosters (6 sections)
roofintrash
Well-Known Member
It's got 1 input and 6 outputs.
Hi Lloyd,
I realize that it seems like a big step but you don't have to do it now or even all at once.
The devices I mentioned would serve you well for a manually operated layout, either on your own or with friends.
They simply allow for an very easy transition to computer control in the future, should that day come.
As far as signalling goes the simplest and most flexible approach is with a computer.
I think you may have seen videos of Ken's layout and the signals he has installed. All operated by Train Controller.
And you may have seen his control panel he once had but now (I think) he has removed.
I operate my layout manually as often as I use total computer controlled - and the mixed operation (me manual, other trains computer), for me, is a real treat.
Given the relatively small effort and cost to build your layout now for manual control BUT include those items which would allow for computer control I think it's a good investment.
And you would never have to look back and say "I should have done that".
Frederick
I realize that it seems like a big step but you don't have to do it now or even all at once.
The devices I mentioned would serve you well for a manually operated layout, either on your own or with friends.
They simply allow for an very easy transition to computer control in the future, should that day come.
As far as signalling goes the simplest and most flexible approach is with a computer.
I think you may have seen videos of Ken's layout and the signals he has installed. All operated by Train Controller.
And you may have seen his control panel he once had but now (I think) he has removed.
I operate my layout manually as often as I use total computer controlled - and the mixed operation (me manual, other trains computer), for me, is a real treat.
Given the relatively small effort and cost to build your layout now for manual control BUT include those items which would allow for computer control I think it's a good investment.
And you would never have to look back and say "I should have done that".
Frederick
Hawkesburytrain
Well-Known Member
Thanks Frederick,
Yes I did watch Ken's video and he's mainly my inspiration, up to electronics because then I'm totally lost
There's 2 pieces that I'm looking at to make my switches work with and without a computer. they are the Switch8-Mk2 which is good for 8 toggle switches and the Switch-8 which is good for 8 tortoises. I'll need to ask more questions on those 2 pieces and read more. For now I'm preparing all my jumpers for my tortoises and my switches.
From yesterday's reading, I'm more reassured now that I know that TrainController works with NCE and toggle switches.
Your help is very much appreciated
Yes I did watch Ken's video and he's mainly my inspiration, up to electronics because then I'm totally lost
There's 2 pieces that I'm looking at to make my switches work with and without a computer. they are the Switch8-Mk2 which is good for 8 toggle switches and the Switch-8 which is good for 8 tortoises. I'll need to ask more questions on those 2 pieces and read more. For now I'm preparing all my jumpers for my tortoises and my switches.
From yesterday's reading, I'm more reassured now that I know that TrainController works with NCE and toggle switches.
Your help is very much appreciated
Hi Lloyd,
The RR-CirKits products are less expensive and, IMO, are better designed. Moreover they are part of a system of devices to handle all aspects of layout operation - turnout control, signal control, relay control, occupancy sensing, etc. All the boards are exactly the same size, mount the same way, use the same connecting cable (3 conductors) and configure similarly.
And just to be clear while the NCE does work with Train Controller it does have that issue I mentioned about using the handheld throttle.
Toggle switches could be a problem with a computer as the position of the toggle would no longer correspond to the position of the turnout - push buttons are a better choice when a computer is present.
Frederick
The RR-CirKits products are less expensive and, IMO, are better designed. Moreover they are part of a system of devices to handle all aspects of layout operation - turnout control, signal control, relay control, occupancy sensing, etc. All the boards are exactly the same size, mount the same way, use the same connecting cable (3 conductors) and configure similarly.
And just to be clear while the NCE does work with Train Controller it does have that issue I mentioned about using the handheld throttle.
Toggle switches could be a problem with a computer as the position of the toggle would no longer correspond to the position of the turnout - push buttons are a better choice when a computer is present.
Frederick
Hawkesburytrain
Well-Known Member
One more question Frederick (for now),
Since my knowledge of electronics is very limited (as you know), I've spend many hours on figuring how to connect the wires to a toggle switch, LED's and the tortoise. I've build 2 so far to test my ability and the functionality and to my surprise everything works GREAT.
Now that you mentioned push buttons, that makes a lot of sense if I'm going to switch to computer system in time. So back to the drawing board for the switches. My question is, where could I find a simple diagram that shows where to connect what to what and how and where? and if I need anything other than what I already have (tortoise, LED's, wire)? Oh and the most important item, what kind of push button.
I just got used to wiring 6 pin toggle switches, so I have no clue for 2 pins. Where do all the other wires go?
Thanks
Since my knowledge of electronics is very limited (as you know), I've spend many hours on figuring how to connect the wires to a toggle switch, LED's and the tortoise. I've build 2 so far to test my ability and the functionality and to my surprise everything works GREAT.
Now that you mentioned push buttons, that makes a lot of sense if I'm going to switch to computer system in time. So back to the drawing board for the switches. My question is, where could I find a simple diagram that shows where to connect what to what and how and where? and if I need anything other than what I already have (tortoise, LED's, wire)? Oh and the most important item, what kind of push button.
I just got used to wiring 6 pin toggle switches, so I have no clue for 2 pins. Where do all the other wires go?
Thanks
Hi Lloyd,
With toggle switches you are simply applying power of the correct polarity to move the Tortoise to the desired position. Since the toggle switch keeps the power applied the Tortoise remains in the selected position.
Since the toggle switch is applying power directly to the Tortoise it is not possible to add computer control to such a setup.
However push buttons can only initiate an operation. You need some sort of electronic device that acts upon the input from the push button(s) and applies power to the Tortoise in the correct polarity.
You can think of this electronic device as "electronic toggle switch" that you move not by flipping the toggle but by pushing a button which tells the "electronic toggle switch" which way you want it to move.
Any such device is going to add a bit of extra wiring and some cost.
The advantage being the work you do now allows manual control but you are all setup for computer control without having to undo any existing wiring.
I've mentioned one such device, the RR-CirKits MotorMan, which would add about $6.25 per turnout over the cost of simple toggle switches.
There are others that I would be glad to research if you are interested. Things may have changed in the last few years but when I did my research for my new layout RR-CirKits was the least expensive.
Frederick
Hawkesburytrain
Well-Known Member
Thanks for the quick reply Frederick,
I'm a bit confused, didn't you say that RR-CirKits were for Digitrax?
If not and I can use it for NCE than I'm open to your suggestions
Why NCE? because I already spend lots of money and don't want to throw it away
Thanks
PS. I saw this video, what's your input on this?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1v5H84xmlpM
I'm a bit confused, didn't you say that RR-CirKits were for Digitrax?
If not and I can use it for NCE than I'm open to your suggestions
Why NCE? because I already spend lots of money and don't want to throw it away
Thanks
PS. I saw this video, what's your input on this?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1v5H84xmlpM
Logger Mike
Member
For what it's worth.....all my turnouts are manual ground throws (Logging), but I would think that using push buttons to throw switch machines could be confusing as to knowing which direction the turnout is thrown, unless it was lighted or something. That's why 30 years ago on my old layout I used toggles to at least give me quick visual as to points position. Just my 2c.
M
Logger Mike,
Charlotte, NC Area
M
Logger Mike,
Charlotte, NC Area
Hawkesburytrain
Well-Known Member
Hey Mike, thanks
I will be installing LED's on the fascia by the switch with a diagram
I will be installing LED's on the fascia by the switch with a diagram
Hi Lloyd,
Let's take the video first...
What he has essentially done is create an "electronic toggle switch" as I discussed but he did it with a latching relay.
As you can see it works but it has no built-in way to accept commands from a computer.
As to RR-CirKits devices...
Yes they are LocoNet compatible and to use them WITH a computer they require a LocoNet connection but that doesn't really matter as I will explain below.
For the initial manual operation of your turnouts they can be configured to work by themselves (no computer connection) with push buttons, much like what you saw in the video.
Now as to needing a LocoNet connection in the future...
Train Controller supports up to 12 digital control systems. When automating a layout it is not at all unusual to mix and match more then one system to obtain the best performance and value.
On my layout I currently have 3 systems.
First I have a Roco Z21 which is used to control the running of the DCC trains and nothing else.
The RR-CirKits gear is used for occupancy sensing, turnout control, signal control, relay control - essentially everything NOT having to do with running trains.
I also have an RCI system which is also used to run trains but only DC powered trains, not the DCC powered trains which are handled by the Z21.
So does needing a LocoNet connection for RR-CirKits gear mean you would need a Digitrax Command Station?
NO - it does not.
All you need is a RR-CirKits LocoBuffer USB device which connects to your computer and thus to Train Controller and provides the LocoNet connection.
Then you need a RR-CirKits SSB GateWay device which takes the LocoNet connection and provides the Simple Serial Bus (SSB) connection as required by the RR-CirKits devices.
These two devices together run about $85.00.
But remember - these are ONLY required for computer control.
For manual control of turnouts via push buttons you only need the RR-CirKits MotorMan device, which I think mentioned works out costing $6.25 per turnout.
There are other devices out there and I would be glad to research them.
But RR-CirKits is one of the companies that provides a complete line of very well designed devices (MotorMan, WatchMan, SignalMan, TowerMan) for all aspects of layout control.
If you visited the RR-CirKits web site (which isn't much to look at) you may have observed that all of those devices look somewhat similar.
That is because they are all based on the same basic integrated circuit which provides the "brain" of the devices. Then each specific board has other electronics to support the intended function of the board, such as controlling turnout motors.
Frederick
Hawkesburytrain
Well-Known Member
Thanks for taking the time and explaining things, I understood everything.... I hope...wow
BUT, just to make sure.
By getting the LocoBuffer USB device and the SSB GateWay, the computer can talk to my NCE system.
I need to install a MotorMan device for every tortoises (turnouts) I have and need to install now (better than later) and my push buttons can manually work (until computer system is ready)
If It's all ok, now I need to know how to connect everything. I check their site and some components, but there's no wiring diagram.
Thanks again
BUT, just to make sure.
By getting the LocoBuffer USB device and the SSB GateWay, the computer can talk to my NCE system.
I need to install a MotorMan device for every tortoises (turnouts) I have and need to install now (better than later) and my push buttons can manually work (until computer system is ready)
If It's all ok, now I need to know how to connect everything. I check their site and some components, but there's no wiring diagram.
Thanks again
Hi Lloyd,
The LocoBuffer USB and SSB Gateway are needed so the computer (and thus Train Controller) can communicate with the RR-CirKits devices.
Your NCE Power Pro 5 system already has a serial port built-in. To connect this NCE system to the computer you will need a USB-to-Serial converter. There are many out there and some work better than others.
I have always used these and have never had a problem:
http://www.tripplite.com/keyspan-high-speed-usb-to-serial-adapter-microsoft-surface~USA19HS/
As to the MotorMan...
Each MotorMan will control eight Tortoise units.
I'm getting ready to run errands so I will be off-line for awhile.
When I get back I will make up a set of instructions and diagrams.
RR-CirKits can provide the wiring you needed or you can make up your own.
For now see the attached.
In the drawing of the MotorMan board (which is about 1.5" by 3.5" in size) you can see the three rectangular connectors with the 10 round pins each.
They are labeled "I/O-1", "Out 1-4" and "Out 5-8".
The "I/O-1" connector is for your push buttons.
The "Out 1-4" connector is for the first four Tortoise devices to be controlled by this one board.
The "Out 5-8" connector is for the next four Tortoise devices to be controlled by this one board.
The two small connectors on the left, drawn as two sets of three black ovals with circles in the center, are for the Simple Serial Bus SSB connections (3 screw terminals each).
The SSB is only three conductors but the board provides two places to connect a SSB "cable", so you can easily connect one board to another.
You can, if it makes things easier to understand, think of one of the 3 terminal connectors as being the SSB "IN" connector and the other as being the SSB "OUT" connector.
You can buy 3 conductor cable OR you can make up your own cable by using individual wires and twist them together using an electric drill - something I've done a lot of.
The last connector at the middle, top is a two position screw terminal connector (labeled X3) which is for the DC power connection to power the Tortoise devices.
This power is supplied using it's own connector as folks have there own preference as to how fast they want their Tortoise units to move.
You can supply DC power from 5 to 25 volts, the greater the voltage the faster the Tortoise move. I found that 14 volts suited me.
There are numerous sources of low cost DC power supplies in this range and one power supply can provide Tortoise power for the whole layout.
Got to go now but will be back.
Frederick
Attachments
Hawkesburytrain
Well-Known Member
Hey Frederic,
I was out yesterday ans only came back around 2am
At first glance you've explained it extremely well and I think I undertood
About the x3 connection screws, my intention was to power all tortoises, lights, signalization and other devices apart from the main buss line and also per section, in other words, my layout will be divided into 4 section (4 boosters), therefore the use of the x3 connection right?
I saw this picture, which kind of makes sense, but I'm clueless to the exact way to connect the wires.
View attachment 57032
Here's what I mean.
The push button as 2 pins
The tortoise as 8 pins
The panel LED's as 2 pins each (2 LED's)
MotorMan
SSB Gateway
USB-to-Serial converter
I also did a bit of research and found this diagram, what do you think?
View attachment 57033
Thanks for your help Frederick, you have no idea how your knowledge is helping me
I was out yesterday ans only came back around 2am
At first glance you've explained it extremely well and I think I undertood
About the x3 connection screws, my intention was to power all tortoises, lights, signalization and other devices apart from the main buss line and also per section, in other words, my layout will be divided into 4 section (4 boosters), therefore the use of the x3 connection right?
I saw this picture, which kind of makes sense, but I'm clueless to the exact way to connect the wires.
View attachment 57032
Here's what I mean.
The push button as 2 pins
The tortoise as 8 pins
The panel LED's as 2 pins each (2 LED's)
MotorMan
SSB Gateway
USB-to-Serial converter
I also did a bit of research and found this diagram, what do you think?
View attachment 57033
Thanks for your help Frederick, you have no idea how your knowledge is helping me
