Misleading E-Bay Ad


U

UP2CSX

Fleeing from Al
I was browsing though e-bay yesterday and came across this ad:
http://cgi.ebay.com/CUSTOM-Union-Pa...ryZ19130QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem.
Those of you who are UP modelers know that this is the standard Athearn rear cupola caboose based on a AT&SF prototype. This seller has been selling this kind of thing on e-bay for a while and always makes it seem like he's making one of a kind models that no one else has. This ad really galled me since not only the caboose itself is a fantasy for the UP but the paint scheme isn't even right and he's advertising it as lighted when the lighting actually doesn't work. I sent him an e-mail saying that the caboose is not "custom", both the caboose itself and the paint scheme are fantasy jobs, and his claim that you'd have to scratchbuild or buy brass at "four times the price" to get a better caboose is patently false since both Intermountain and Marklin have produced accurate copies of CA-3 and CA-5 cabooses in plastic for about $30. I told him I would not report him to e-bay this time but I would do so if he keeps posting these kind of misleading ads

This is his reply:
"Sir; If you do not like my models please do not bid on them. Thats OK & it's your privledge. Your opinion is your freedom of expression. Like I said before I take Athearn stuff & try to improve on it. The word 'Custom' refers to anything that the caboose has added toit other thanfactory items.Just like an automobile. If you buy a new auto & have tinted window put into it that is considered 'custom windows'. Model Railroading is a fantasy world; it is to enjoy & experiment. If u r dead serious about it -fine! Build your layout the way you want to. If u will read my feedback I have many, many satisfied customers. I do not take kindly to your threats of turning me in to Ebay. I am retired,on disability, a fixed income and make these models to help ends meet. I would not care to fight with you r ebay as it would b to detrimental to my already failing health. Take care & may God bless, Robert"

Notice the appeal that I'll kill him if he has to defend his misleading claims. :eek: Am I being too tough on this guy or what? He stated in another e-mail he worked for the Katy for 37 years so it's not like he doesn't know anything about railroads. I don't really care that he sells fantasy cars and paint schemes but his ad wording makis it look like this is some one of kind thing that you should buy right away before Athearn stops making the zillionth copy of that caboose. :)
 
I dunno if its just me, or what, but I seen no claims he built the caboose. I do see the claim about the brass, but.

In any cast, even if you swap the couplers, technically it IS a custom. He just prays upon the inexperienced. I see it often on eBay myself and I really hate it too.

What bothers me the most is "super detailed" locomotives, where they add a plow (wrong one at that), some cut bars, wipers and grabs. Thats not super detailed, there's allot more to hit super level. However, I never contact the seller, because I just don't feel like spending all the time doing so.
 
I've noticed that guy, too! He comes up a lot on my Rock Island searches, as he offers Route Rock cabooses that are "custom." But they look pathetic and are unprototypical. I noticed they sell, but not at that high of a price. Anyway, I don't think you're being too tough - sure, it is custom, but he tries to make it sound like it's the best deal in the world.
 
I think you're over-reacting Jim. There is nothing in that ebay add that is a blatent lie. (He covers his butt about the lighting not working right) He never claims it to be an acurate reproduction of a prototype UP caboose. It is custom (how ever little work was done) and it is one of a kind. The inaccuracies may bother a UP fan, but not all modelers are worried about prototype fidelity. If someone buys that caboose and is happy with it, congrats to the buyer and seller. Ultimately, the only way to stop ads like that is to not buy the stuff. Ebay is run by the buyers, if people want to pay top dollar for models like this, then more models like this will be sold.
A similar discussion was had about custom weathering. Should a car airbrushed for 30 seconds get the same price as a car weathered for 10 hours using multiple techniques? Probably not, but it happens. Thats how ebay works.
My personal favourite is how it seems every model train item listed on ebay ends in the word RARE! That annoys the heck out of me, but as a buyer, I can do my own research into how hard an item is to get and make my own choices.
 
Fred,
His claim that you'd have to scatchbuild or buy brass at "four time" his price to get a better model is a blatant falsification. The headline says the caboose is lighted. Only in the copy does he reveal that the lights don't work but just need some "tinkering". I could throw a light bulb on the floor of the caboose and make the same claim. Read the ad copy again and see if he doesn't imply that is an accurate reproduction of a UP caboose that any " 'U.P.' Road fan" would be happy to have in his collection.

Finally, he says he's selling this to thin out his collection. As his reply clearly states, he has no collection - he makes these models to produce income. That's fine with me - I'm a capitalist - but don't lie about why you are selling the merchandise.
 
Zephyr,
He also had an NKP Athearn bay window caboose that has no relationship to a real NKP caboose. He even proudly states he trims the roofwalks in silver, something the NKP never did. He sells a lot of these fantasy models - I see them for almost every railroad I do a search on. However, if he's claiming they are custom (which I hardly agree that putting in some plastic windows and Kadee "style" (notice he never says "Kadee") couplers qualifies as custom) then he should at least let the buyer know the model is not accurate in paint or style for the railroad he's claiming it represents. If you're selling an an Athearn caboose out of the box then we all know what to expect. Custom means to me that it's unique and that it has some relationship to the real thing. Just as an example, if was going to paint the cast on grabs and end rails of the UP caboose, at least he could have done them in red, not white, and gotten a little closer to what the prototype might have looked like.
 
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jbaakko said:
What bothers me the most is "super detailed" locomotives, where they add a plow (wrong one at that), some cut bars, wipers and grabs. Thats not super detailed, there's allot more to hit super level. However, I never contact the seller, because I just don't feel like spending all the time doing so.
Click to expand...
That bothers me too. Super detailed is putting every detail part on imaginable. Such as:
lift rings
wire grabs
mu hoses
mu cable
crew (is applicable)
snow plow
windshiled wipers
see through fans
correct horn
sergeant couplers/kadee couplers
plus whatever else I missed.
 
Smoke said:
That bothers me too. Super detailed is putting every detail part on imaginable. Such as:
lift rings
wire grabs
mu hoses
mu cable
crew (is applicable)
snow plow
windshiled wipers
see through fans
correct horn
sergeant couplers/kadee couplers
plus whatever else I missed.
Click to expand...
Traction motor cables
Bell
Steps
step lights
fuel tank fillers
fuel overflow
piping
air compressor details
ect...

Jim, I understand what you mean by misleading, but I've gotta say, its by far no where near the worst I've seen on eBay. Though, the seller in my eye, is as bad as a recent offer I got. Person had one Custom Rail auto rack, "rare, custom detailed", it had metal wheels (incorrect size might I add), and was built, which all custom rail cars needed to be. Was NOT even decaled... Seller asked me if I'd like it for $25. I told him no, as I get them UNDER $10 often (they're not rare in my mind).
 
Guess it goes back to that saying..one man's trash is another man's treasure...or maybe beauty is in the eye of the beholder. He's definitely stretching things a bit, but I wouldn't exactly say he's lying either. My personal opinion is if someone wants the caboose (or any other item) and is willing to pay the price, everyone wins. On a totally different note, you see out of production Walther's Cornerstone kits all the time selling for 3 or 4 times what they sold for new.....I feel like I should invest my retirement funds in Walther's kits...by the time I retire I'll be sitting pretty!!!! And they aren't even doing anything....at least this guy did a little work. I also see all those Norscot Cat vehicles (in N scale)....when they first hit, they were selling for $20 or more apiece....I bought mine at Walmart for $1.67 each. As has already been said......you gotta do your research.....by the time you include the shipping, well over half the stuff on ebay costs more than what I can buy it for at my local shop. There are still some great deals, and where else can you find some of the stuff (like the walther's kits). Bottom line is if someone wants it , it'll sell.....if 2 people want it , it'll probably sell for more than it's worth.....seen that happen too. You just wanna reach through the computer and grab them and say "STOP BIDDING....you can buy that from XXXX for $XX!!) Oh well....another saying...Ignorance is Bliss!
 
I always worry about E-Bay claims of 'one of a kind'. I remember several years ago coming upon an HO Brass Cab-Forward that the seller was advertising as "Hand Crafted" and asking a whopping $10,000 for as an OPENING bid. Well, of COURSE it was hand-crafted, most brass locomotives are. Turns out it was an Akane AC-8-12 from the 1960's, which one can usually pick up used for around $400.00 or less.

That was about the best jaw-dropper I've found on E-Bay so far,but that Athearn UP 'customized' caboose starting at $24 is coming pretty close. Heck, I've got a couple of 'customized' Athearn cabooses that I painted for 1950's Rio Grande black. I think they cost me $7.50 when I bought them,and they're about as prototype as the UP model, LOL!

Hm, should I offer them on E-Bay? Nah!

Tom
 
I think Josh really hit the nail here - the seller is praying on the inexperienced. There's a couple hours of "detailing" there, certainly not the amazing work of art that is implied here. Heck, it even still has the basic plastic wheels and trucks. I do so love that "Kadee-style" coupler. :)

Funny thing is I bought one of those exact cabooses recently on EBay for 4 bucks. It had a broken smoke stack so it was "custom" as well - what a deeeel! :D

Mark
 
I like the "custom" BN boxcar he has listed, not my cup of tea however.
I am currently selling another one of my "bigger toys", a 30 ton GE.
Since I put an airhorn on it from a semi truck, maybe I should call it custom... hmmm, any takers?
 
I guess what this comes down to, disregarding the falsehoods in this ad, is how do you define "custom"? Josh and Smoke gave a pretty detailed list of what they'd consider necessary for a locomotive to be called "super-detailed" and I agree. This caboose is actually a good example of what I would define as custom. In the antediluvian days of my youth, there were no accurate models of a UP CA-3 caboose except brass, which was far out of reach from my budget. It used that exact same standard Athearn caboose, cut out the cupola, added styrene to get it the right height, relocated it to center of the roof, redid the roof panels to match the correct panels, shaved off all the cast on grabs and replaced them with wire, added grabs that ran around the ends of the cupola, made the correct cupola mounted red and green marker lights, made the correct ends and ladders by soldering wire together, sanded and filled everything, and then painted it the right colors and decaled it with the correct style lettering. I even spent the then enormous sum of $7.50 to get the correct UP caboose trucks. When I was done, what I had was truly custom in that no one else had anything like it. To this day, I've never seen anything else that was like it. I imagine I was the only one dumb enough to go to that much work but I had more time than money. :)

Maybe doing that kind of work in my youth sets my teeth on edge when I see someone who glued in some plastic windows and brush painted the cast on grabs (in the wrong color to boot) describing his work as "custom" and saying that you'd have to scratch build or buy brass to get better at four times the price. It's a free market and people should be allowed to do what they want within the limits of honesty. He didn't like being called on it and that's tough. I think custom has a higher meaning in most people's mind than what he's selling and I do hate see him preying on newcomers when they are paying for something they think is special when it's almost completely ordinary.
 
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Sadly, all things aside, for something to be custom, it only technically has to be different then the model would have been out of the box from the manufacturer. I know many people might not consider swapping wheels & couplers a custom, but in all technicality, it is.
 
Joah, I think you're incorrect in your definition of custom. Webster's defines it as "Specializing in the making or selling of made-to-order goods: a custom tailor." I think what this seller was doing was modifying a standard kit but it's not custom. No one ordered it that way. What you and Smoke do with locomotives is really the correct definition of custom because you have customers that order exactly what they want on their engines. Listing that caboose as "Modified" kit would have been fine with me (althought the idea about not being able to get anything like that for less than four times his cost is still patently misleading) since that's what it really is - a modified standard kit. Just changing the couplers unless you are doing it for a specific customer order does not qualify as custom work in my mind.
 
Ah shucks Jim I was going to sell my Custom, Vintage , Rare , One of a Kind Caboose on Ebay . Now you got me reconsidering !!!!!!!!!
 
Its does not matter what Webster defines "custom" as. Custom, in this manor, simply means it is customized, IE, changed from factory. A customized shirt, could be as simple as writing your name on it. A customized car can be as simple as tinting the windows. It's not a factory item, something was changed.

cus·tom·ize [kuhs-tuh-mahyz]
–verb (used with object) -ized, -iz·ing.
to modify or build according to individual or personal specifications or preference: to customize an automobile.
Click to expand...

I'm not disagreeing that the seller is ripping off the uninformed people, in fact I agree with you there. However, technically, but the meaning, it IS a custom, even if it is not up to your standards of a custom.
 
Would it be safe to say that the term "custom" is relative? Everyone has their own meaning for the word?

Hey, we all know some people will try anything when selling stuff on EBay.

Mark
 
Since the auction ended with "no bids", apparently this "customization" snared no suckers. W.C. Fields has rolled over one more time!

Will
 
I've paid less at the LHS for a NEW Athearn caboose than what this clown wanted for a used and in his opinion 'customized' one. I certainly don't want something that somebody has been chopping on if it's for sale at a higher price than something I could get new.
 
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