lower module trackplan - harsh criticue and advice welcome

[tankist]

having track planning software its nice and all but it still doesn't give the exact feeling of the outcome. so after several attempts with anyrail i decided to just get down there and doodle around with actual track. spent several hours and my mind is boiling - i think i officially hit the over planning faze.
so if you feel like, take a look and leave your 0.02$ or 1M$ worth. rip this to shreds if you feel so, ideas and suggestions are welcome.


below is the main 4x7 of my layout. notice a turnout under the bridge in lower left corner. diverging path completes the curve, while the straight through leads to the module - a 11 inches by 7 feet long (can be partially seen here). additional length (~2 feet) can be added for transfer table or temp addition but main lenght dimension is limited by the storage place for this module.

current operation idea of the module is a pier for barges loading and unloading coal, sand, limestone to service a cement plant (and perhaps grain and gravel). and perhaps have industry or 2 in the backside (either cut off front or even simply drawn) loading boxcars and/or tank cars. here is what i came up , notes of operation are included as i see it.

lowest/closes line is where goods are loaded to/from the barge. long enough to clear 6 bethgons or 8 acf-2970 covered hoppers (verified). engine can leave via runaround (even without extension). stub at the end of runaround track also serves an industry. 3rd track serving other building/buildings s but can be omitted. notice the very first turnout is a curved one (peco setrack) to maximise which was verified workable by even dash8 engine (after all it is a low speed zone).
main wekness is short lead after the curved turnout. switcher will need to foul the main when disconnecting cars from the back of train and shoving into stab and spur.

pretty much same thing but with ordinary turnout. cars specified above still fit will need to be positioned precisley to clear the turnouts of runaround. lead seems to be sufficient to work one car.


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from this point, while i'm at it i'm trying out crazy ideas (and that's where i go bananas)...

additional spur as a switch back. i now realize it is unreachable unless switcher brings one car into the module head in.

2 spurs plain.

2 spurs with a switch back. i do realise it is unreachable if the non switchback portion is occupied, but if it is made long enough to hold switcher and 2 cars this can be a puzzle. a wacky one.



and apotheosis of the evening is this crazy contraption. 4 track quasy yard

welcome to discuss.
(3 oclock! the kid gets up in 3 hours )

 

[kz9]

Anyway of adding 8-10'' more depth on the ''leaf'' of your layout?

Cause you could have a nice area for bulk unloading of boats, then a nice yard with loading/unloading track, and maybe along the back you could do a plant. Ethier grain or cement/concrete like you want. This would give you a nice operation on that part, kinda like a 3-4 way switching.

 

[SpaceMouse]

Are you leaving room for buildings, access roads, and car parking at businesses?

 

[tankist]

Kellan, small yard is planned for upper module, and i would not want to increase depth as it will hamper the reach into that upper module.

Chip, probably as either cut off buildings blending into background of this module, or drawn altogether.unless i'm going for the last option which this morning i don't like anymore there will be some room for these, somewhat...

 

[tankist]

thats it, no more opinions?

 

[SpaceMouse]

Putting a runaround track like you do, limits the amount of things you can do in that area. The second track always has to be empty or the runaround is useless. I know a lot of people use runarounds like that, but I personally like to see the engine being able to escape or complete its moves outside the storage area. You can do this on the larger module with no problem. You need a runaround to service the stubs you already have anyway.

You can back in from that same area and will you will be able to use all the new area instead of small fragments of it. In my town there was a wye about 3 miles outside of town. The freight would come in, reverse itself and back into town to switch out the industries. At the end of the line were tracks where outgoing cars could be sorted, not unlike what you are proposing in your last variation.

But there was no runaround in the storage areas.

 

[Rico]

I like the one with the switchback, #3. If you bring your crossover back a little it will leave you with some storage and still have room for a runaround. If you shorten the long spur at the top you'll have room for a pretty big building for the middle track.
Keep moving the switches and track and you'll eventually get your very own "Eureka!" moment.
And keep in mind the old "less is more" thing, sometimes the simple plan is the better plan.
If you have Xtrkcad or a similar program you can try running some cars over your design before anything is finalized, but I'm sure you already knew that.

 

[tankist]

Chip. i was thinking about this module being purley a branch into small industrial park, meaning shorter cuts of cars picked up by switcher from main module and pushed in, never blocking a switcher and as such doing away with runaround altogether. but its not a favorite solution

i'm leaning towards attached , perhaps with a switchback on the upper track(ty Rico). yellow track will have to stay clear mostly (only temp storage), used as runaround and as delivery route for the purple siding.
my consern is the very first switch however.

more later...

 

[SpaceMouse]

If that is what you are thinking, then I suggest you might be looking at it backwards. Start with the industries, determine how big they need to be and the type of materials/shipping they need in order to function. Then work out how to supply them with cars. Make every track have a purpose (and efficiency).

 

[tankist]

that's what i did start with -

current operation idea of the module is a pier for barges loading and unloading coal, sand, limestone to service a cement plant (and perhaps grain and gravel). and perhaps have industry or 2 in the backside (either cut off front or even simply drawn) loading boxcars and/or tank cars.

so the lowest track is for barge loading unloading. spurs for 2 industries, probably food handling (grain in with covered 3 bay hoppers, oil and corn syrup in 23k tanks, product out in boxcars). i will be cutting building foot-prins and trying to arrange.


--------------- add -----------------

played some more with rails and as advised elsewhere tried to put on some structure "mock-ups" (crude but still).
looked through some pictures of barge loading piers and i see that the track is not smack near the edge of the pier. so i tried to move it away as possible. track length suffered and i will need to do extension to the left to accomodate engine getting to second track. but there is a room for front loader working a conveyor for overhead loading of hoppers, and somewhat of access road.

it seems there even a bit of room for 3rd track serving industries drawn on backdrop of this module.

tried a curved turnout to squeeze some length. no S curves there are some straight sections in between. dash8 does clear the tight inside radius of the curved turnout but looks awful while doing that. what do you think

 

[tankist]

some prototype photos and crude mockups


cement unloading (a kind of vacuum unloader as i understand). although i will probably be loading it onto the barge, how will it look?

"cement handling" pop can and some sprue piping.

sand unloading. i guess coal and gravel can be unloaded the save way

front loader filling a conveyor to the overhead loading structure

i would guess the track will need to be embedded in concrete ..

 

[Rico]

I like the bottom pic in post #10, very visually appealing with the curve.
It would be too easy to dig out an undertrack pit into the foam, seen a lot of that in my day.

 

[Beachbum]

I like the bottom pic in post #10, very visually appealing with the curve.
It would be too easy to dig out an undertrack pit into the foam, seen a lot of that in my day.

Agree. Don't they usually unload cement hoppers from the bottom? OTOH, I've never seen a cement "vacuum" so I guess there's potentially a proto for everything...

I also agree: figure out the industries first, then plan your track.

 

[tankist]

industries are already figured out. i am planning a nuclear power plant, a coal one, a big automobile plant, couple farms and... but for some strange reason all that does not fit a 7x1 shelf... so i think i'll just stay with ones i mentioned before.



per research, unless prepackaged in paper bags, cement is unloaded from barges by either vacuum or screw un-loader (some times as integrated unloading systems if it is a dedicated cement hauler ship.) loading at a times is done by just dropping it in as pictured.
covered hoppers are unloaded from the bottom but they don' drop the cement into the pit underneath , but rather use piping to suck the cement out.

 

[Motley]

Wow that's interesting, didn't know that about the cement industry. That should look really good on your layout Anton.

 

[SpaceMouse]

Looks to me like the cement industry takes up the whole area. I'd say use the two tracks, forget the runaround, and do the cement well. You won't fill a ship or a barge with one or two hoppers at time. You fill a ship with 20 hoppers at at time.

 

[tankist]

you mean set of silos? (i didn't see cement stored in wells). after playing some more i realised the runaround will not fit. i will probably have to do a transfer cassette at he end..

 

[Cjcrescent]

At the concrete plants around my home town, and the ones here that receive their cement by the RR, all of these unload the hoppers through the bottom via a portable conveyor/hopper arrangement, or a dump pit with a permanent conveyor. Here, at least, no vacuums.

 

[tankist]

i doubt it is the cement they unloading like this, probably sand and aggregate ( unless that one is trucked it). apart from being very dusty, cement is humidity sensitive and from what i see is always stored in closed silos. unloading is pneumatic with aid of vibration devices. do you have any pictures perhaps? my local plant is all truck operation, (actually they removed one of the 2 portable batching machines...)

here is a youtube of cement car unloading directly into semi-truck
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cKoKFd_SSi0

EDIT:
here is another hopper unloaded but i'm guessing this one is grain or plastic judging by the facility
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sn6neHkVQQg

 

[Beachbum]

There's a precast plant very close to me on the BNSF (with long cuts of cement hoppers usually sitting nearby) but I can't get close enough without trespassing to see the unloading. Bummer.

BTW, that second YouTube is of flour hoppers for Pepperidge Farm in Downers Grove, Illinois - also on the BNSF - I used to ride by daily on my commute to / from work.