Just started work on my layout


....As for the Zephyr, why does anyone care which system I pick? ....

Nucular, the fact that so many chimed in to offer their advice is a testament of their willingness to assist with the utmost honorable intentions. So, why does anyone care which system you pick? We care because we want to ensure a fellow rail modeller has all the information available to them to make a well informed decision about something as important as a DCC system - plain and simple, mate. My only concern is when it comes time to programming all your locos to will find the control panel of a Zephyr restrictive. It is not the most "user-friendly" device. Anyway, I'm not going to badger you anymore. As I said earlier, all the best with your layout and don't be afraid to come back for any advice you need in the future and keep us informed with your progress.

Regards,
 
Nucular, the fact that so many chimed in to offer their advice is a testament of their willingness to assist with the utmost honorable intentions. So, why does anyone care which system you pick? We care because we want to ensure a fellow rail modeller has all the information available to them to make a well informed decision about something as important as a DCC system - plain and simple, mate. My only concern is when it comes time to programming all your locos to will find the control panel of a Zephyr restrictive. It is not the most "user-friendly" device. Anyway, I'm not going to badger you anymore. As I said earlier, all the best with your layout and don't be afraid to come back for any advice you need in the future and keep us informed with your progress.

Regards,

You are not badgering me. I like hearing different ideas. It just came across to me that some people were getting upset because I did not want to use a different DCC system. I read through the Zephyr manual 2 to 3 times already, and for me it seems more "user-friendly" than other systems. Well EZ Command seems easier but is somewhat limited. The new Zephyr allows up to 20 trains so that would be more than fine for me. I am sure others will find other systems to be more "user-friendly" just depends on what you like. I looked into other systems but I disliked the fact that you needed batteries for the controllers, and I did not care for the display style or arrangement of the buttons. The NCE control panel look did not appeal to me. I like the older style panel that looks like the standard try and true train transformer. I do care for pushing buttons to increase or decrease speed, I like just turning a big knob. But that is me.
 
Well, this went sideways quickly.

It is probably a cultural thing, but in my experience on toy train forums, we tend to do a lot of sharing and expression of good will. When we see that a person appears to have misunderstood something, or is going down what we know to be the wrong path, certainly a poor choice by way of engineering and physics, we jump in and caution the person. I think this is what was being offered here: expressions of good will, some cautions, and suggestions for another way of achieving what was understood to be an aim or a goal.

Power supplies are rated for a maximum output. They may only ever need half their rated output, but they are designed for more....but a defined safe upper limit. What happens on the rails is the variable that determines how much throughput, or usable amperage, the power supply will provide at any given moment. If it is a single small sound-equipped diesel pulling six box cars and a caboose on level track, it will be somewhere between 0.3 and 0.7 amps, depending on the ease of rolling of the cars and the efficiency of the drive. We were talking of a much larger number at one point, all working concurrently, and that figure was 1000. Taking the lower number of amps above, it still comes to 300 amps needed for pulling the trains behind the 1000 locomotives. My question would be as follows: will a 120 volt power supply with a DC conversion and output of 3 amps provide 100 times that amperage for more than about 10 seconds before it made a lot of smoke? Umm....no.
Secondly, at what outlet in a standard coded home would one expect to be able to draw 300 amps? Nowhere, not even boosted at the 240 volt circuits to the hot water heater and the kitchen stove.

I am new here, so I am not up on how advice gets shared or passed around.

As for the amps thing, the maximum number of controllabe trains by any system seems to be 120. I could be mistaken but that seems to be the most that could be controlled at any one time. Provided you had this, each loco would take about 0.2 amps of power. That would mean you would need 24 amps of power (assuming no sound power locos). Now the conversion rate from AC power to DC power is something to take into account. According to the transformer on my TV, 120V AC 1.5 Amp is converted into 12V DC 3 Amps. So I would just need 12 amps of power from the electrical company. My outlet's are 20 amp circuits, so there is plenty of power. You could even double the amount of amps and still have enough. Of course you would need two circuits, but that is do able. One outlet in a room could be on one circuit and another on another. On such a small layout, to actually run all the trains at once, would most likely require three 115 volt 20 amp circuits, and the layout would have power blocks most likely every 2 feet, and the boosters would all have to be interconnected yet pluged into different AC wall circuits.

Fun to think about. Though 20 trains is enough for me. I can still program more in, just that the command center can only allow for 20 to operate at any given time.
 
You are not badgering me. I like hearing different ideas. It just came across to me that some people were getting upset because I did not want to use a different DCC system. I read through the Zephyr manual 2 to 3 times already, and for me it seems more "user-friendly" than other systems. Well EZ Command seems easier but is somewhat limited. The new Zephyr allows up to 20 trains so that would be more than fine for me. I am sure others will find other systems to be more "user-friendly" just depends on what you like. I looked into other systems but I disliked the fact that you needed batteries for the controllers, and I did not care for the display style or arrangement of the buttons. The NCE control panel look did not appeal to me. I like the older style panel that looks like the standard try and true train transformer. I do care for pushing buttons to increase or decrease speed, I like just turning a big knob. But that is me.

Nucular, No problem at all, mate. You've made your decision and you're ready to run with, and all the best! FYI I also like the big old fashion rotary knob and pushing buttons was a bit foreign to me at first. Luckily NCE has a CAB Throttle hand controller with a big ugly knob on the front and let me tell you it's a godsend. Best invention ever! And the best thing about it, when the know is centered=loco stopped, turn knob to the left=loco goes forward, turn knob to the right= loco goes in reverse. No buttons! Best thing I ever bought.

I do like your "over engineered" metal frame! And I'm not having a go at you, by the way. My "over engineerd" frame is made from local hardwood, dressed, oiled and laquered with a piano finish! I'm also a woodworker so I like going overboard with my timberwork ;)

Regards,
 
I have not completely made my decision yet. I am waiting on a response from digitrax on being able to connect more boosters to their system. I think you can, but I want to be sure. 6 amps of power (3 from each unit linked together) would most likely give me enough. But then I thought about what if I have two engines on each train, and passanger cars that light up. Plus if I move one train from one power block to another, 3 amps might not be enough. So far I am thinking that 5 amps of power should go to the switch yard and part of my main double track. Then 3 amps for each leg that goes out from there. I doubt that I would ever have a need to run a very powerful train on the most inner track/loop. As the yard is connected to the outer loop, it only makes sense that the area of the yard and what is right next to it, will draw the most power at any one time.

On another topic, as for DCC needing more feeders. I am thinking of putting track feeders at least every 10 feet. Some people claim it should be every piece or every other piece. But I figured that I would start with it being every 10 feet, and borrow a voltage meter, and check the loads as the train goes around. See how well it works before putting the track down for good. That way I can always add more in.
 
On another topic, as for DCC needing more feeders. I am thinking of putting track feeders at least every 10 feet. Some people claim it should be every piece or every other piece. But I figured that I would start with it being every 10 feet, and borrow a voltage meter, and check the loads as the train goes around. See how well it works before putting the track down for good. That way I can always add more in.

My advice would be to drop feeders from the track as you are laying it onto the trackbed. Don't let the electrical work hold up your track laying work. That would be the order in which I'd do it. If you end up dropping too many track feeders and you end up not using some feeders, then there is no loss. Some may say it's an overkill, but I'd drop track feeders at, say, 6ft. In the past my feeders were spaced every 6-9ft and in two areas they were 15ft and never had a problem. Ran perfectly! I hope that make sense?

Regards,
 
how many trains are you really going to be running at one time? not sitting on the layout, but really moving at one time. 3-5 amps is generally plenty to run a couple trains.
 
We all share your unbridled enthusiasm . We have all been there before. We have built our Dream layouts only to tear them down and start over . Why ? Because you never stop learning and there is such a learning curve in this Hobby. There are three things that never ever change . They are different for each person . They are TIME , SPACE and MONEY and they do flucutate greatly . Speaking for myself I have created infinitely more mistakes than masterpieces .
 
Thanks for the advice on feeders bn-1000. I will most likely start with feeders every 10 feet, then add more if needed before putting the track down for good. That way I can still add more if needed. I am guessing that more feeders are just needed in places with higher power demands such as places where two trains might be going compared to just one.

I am planning on running at least 6 trains all the time. If I put 2 or 3 engines together for each train, I am easily at 1 amp per train. So right away there I would need at least 6 engines, and that then gives me no room for expansion or changes. I figure that 11 amps would give me enough to have enough engines on, lighted cars, and plenty of extra power if I choose to say put an extra engine on a train or another one.
 
Nucular. No one is talking about the wall outlet's 20 amp circuits, The whole discussion as far as I read is about what comes from the DCC system to the engines and about how much current they draw.
 
The amp thing could be a misunderstanding. The conversation was not so clear in some of those regards, by myself and from those talking about it.
 
An updated track plan, that is more detailed. Enjoy.

TrackLayoutPictureUpdated.png
 
Here is a response from digitrax on my question about adding more boosters and combining more Zephyr's together:

You can combine two or more units on a layout to get more power but NOT in
the same power district. Each DCS51, DB150, etc. must power its own section
of track (power district) as you can never have more than one per power
district. So in the power district powered by the DCS51 you can never have
more than 3 amps in that district, 5 amps in the section of track powered by
the DB150, etc. You can have as many boosters as you wish on the layout as
long as each powers its section of track.
Digitrax
Tech Support
techsupport@digitrax.com
2443 Transmitter Rd
Panama City, FL 32404
850-872-9890
 
5 amps is a lot, it will do more than you think it will.
I bought the Digitrax DB150, 5 amp system and radio control throttles when I started this time in 2007. That way I got that big expense out of the way and would have all of the power ever needed for any future expansions.
The Zephyr Extra was not out then so I could not see getting something that I would maybe need to upgrade or replace. I
 
I bought the Digitrax DB150, 5 amp system and radio control throttles when I started this time in 2007. That way I got that big expense out of the way and would have all of the power ever needed for any future expansions.
The Zephyr Extra was not out then so I could not see getting something that I would maybe need to upgrade or replace. I

That is more or less my thinking. I rather have more power in case I ever want to change something or add on. One way to do it without spending a lot of money, is to create extra power blocks/sections, and just wire the blocks together. If you need more power, then you just disconnect them, and purchase another booster. Would be a lot easier to do then having to try and rip out some track in order to make a new power block.

Regardless right now I am looking at about 11 amps of power for the whole layout. I might jump up to 16. I figure that if I have 3 engines per train, and 6 trains running, assuming 0.5 amps per engine, that comes out to 1.5 amp per train. That alone comes out to 9 amps. Now of course not all trains will have 3 engines, but I like to plan for that kind of situation as that way I do not have any limiting factors in terms of having enough power.
 
Your model railroading interests? Visual? Operational? Electrical?

Nuc,

I haven't read every message in this thread, however, beyond trying to help with your concerns regarding electrical control, but I think you are going to have a hard time reaching everything in the far corners of the layout. Also, besides watching trains go round and round, what purpose do any of the main or branch lines serve? The prototype railroads were built to serve a purpose. You've got a big space. In some ways, this gives you possibilities. As others have said previously, just trying to help you avoid early frustration, regarding your trackplan.

If you were into scenery, maybe the track plan you've got is enough, however I think you'll get bored with it relatively quickly. I've learned the hard way.

Otis
 
What do you mean being able to reach the far corners of the layout? I have 3 feet of walking space around the whole table. When I built it, I tested it for being able to reach spots. There is only 1 or 2 spots where reaching is a little hard, due to a post in the basement, but that is unavoidable for the most part.

I enjoy watching trains just going around and around. The Disneyland and Disneyworld monorails just go around in circles, and if I am correct one of them is the most used form of public transportation.

Point-to-Point operations are okay, but to me those get boring. I do not like having to sit and change the direction of the train every few mintues. Besides my layout is more focused towards passanger service, which from what I can gather just takes people from one location to the next.
 
Unless you revisit your track plan and put in the easements and such, you will have derailments and other issues. THIS IS ESPECIALLY TRUE WITH LONG PASSENGER CARS. Obviously, you haven't read "Track Planning for Realistic Operations" which would save you tons of headaches. As far as clearances, I want to see you pick up a Bowser Big Boy at 3 feet in. With the space you have, your curves are too sharp. Does your railroad have a purpose or is this just a big "Trainboard" ? You seem enamored with DCC, but have no clue otherwise to the compounded mistakes in your layout design. If your trackplan has a turnout over the metal bracing, where are you going to put the switch machine?

Have you decided how much grade? How are you going to add scenery? Have you installed your lighting, and controls for it?
 
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