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MarkVIIIMarc

Member
Not sure where else to post this to do some good but here it goes:

I received a DVD in the mail from Model Railroad Magazine with some ambiguously worded non bill and request to mail it back if I did not want it. Apparently they obtained my address when I signed up for their forums.

After asking questions on their site I found out I am also due to receive a fake bill for the DVD and more every year. Great, more stuff to worry my wife when she reads it.

This practice is akin to me showing up at your door asking for $10 for that one time I helped your family with that one thing. MAYBE not criminal but pretty darned underhanded and creepy.

Now I've complained to the state and will file a BBB complaint against them. Perhaps after watching citizens hide behind their closed curtains and not turn in the crooks on their streets I am more sensitive than most.

But please if you are in the U.S. and are going to bother to vote this November to make America better please do the same and mention it on your other RR related boards and even Model Railroad's boards. After I get done running my mouth I'll probably have to unplug my router and get a new IP or use one of the Proxies at work to post over there.
 
Are they doing this again? Or still doing it? It's been going on for years.
And it isn't just MR that does this... Federal law says if they send you something unsolicited in the mail, you don't have to pay for it.
 
Just as BNSF971 indicates this situation, run through a company contracted by Model Railroader/Kalmbach to market their product, has been doing so for years under series titles like "Dream-Plan-Build" and "Great Model Railroads" (or Layouts, maybe?). In each instance, the first of these DVDs to arrive is offered at a bargain price. If you pay for it others will follow automatically, priced much higher. Undoubtedly there are a great number of gullible hobby dabblers out there that fall for this ploy and get sucked into wasting their money on these endless series of DVDs, otherwise the practice wouldn't be continued. Serious model railroaders know better than to buy into this scheme (and typically know a lot more than any of the DVDs have to show, or teach).

By federal law you are under absolutely no obligation to either pay for, or return, these DVDs. Keep the DVD, or chuck it along with the billing letter and any that might follow-up, as you choose. If you disregard the offer the company won't send any further DVDs...at least for a few years!

NYW&B
 
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This follow up fake bill thing has annoyed me before and really done it for me this time. If it doesn't show :)

Has anyone ever done anything about it or something similar? I figure I'll wait for the fake bill and.try emailing photo copies of everything they sent to a couple dozen tv stations. Maybe it will be a slow news day or there will be an anti elderly scam campaign going on and I can get the scammers name in the news. And posting the pics on FLICKR and Photobucket will get some more google listings for when folks search for their name.
 
If it comes unsolicited (you didn't place an order for it), then it is third class mailing advertisement. You can chuck it in File 13 or keep it to view it...your choice. You are under no other obligation.

Even if you 'get sucked in', and it has nothing to do with being a 'serious modeler' (John), whatever a serious modeler is, you are under no further obligation. If you for some strange reason decide to pay for the first one, and if they send you another, you do not have to pay. You can even keep the second one because you have not subscribed....entered a contract. If you complete an agreement, say by filling out a subscription and sending it in with the first payment, then you are bound by contract. You must pay.

If you send in an initial payment, but don't complete and submit a form for a subscription, anything else they send you is also unsolicited, and you can keep that, too. If they harass you, saying you paid for the first one, plead insanity, and ask for your money back. That'll shut 'em up.
 
Selector said:
If it comes unsolicited (you didn't place an order for it), then it is third class mailing advertisement. You can chuck it in File 13 or keep it to view it...your choice. You are under no other obligation.

Even if you 'get sucked in', and it has nothing to do with being a 'serious modeler' (John), whatever a serious modeler is, you are under no further obligation.
Click to expand...


Crandell, there can be little question that these DVDs are directly aimed at the armchair folks and the hobby dabblers, just like MR itself. Beyond going ooh and aah over pictures of someone else's layout, what supposedly instructional material, or modeling guidelines, are offered in the series such as D-P-B is so basic/simplistic that only rank newbies might find them of any real use, or interest. Remember, these DVDs are originating with the folks who still claim that the long out-moded use of puffball trees remains a modeling standard! Those believing that have long since been left behind by a decade and more of advances in modeling techniques. Folks that take this hobby in any way seriously as modelers are far beyond what these DVDs have to offer beyond pretty pictures. On the other hand, if as you claim you are still unaware of what a serious modeler is, then perhaps these DVDs could be considered as appropriate for you? :rolleyes:

NYW&B
 
In short, if you didn't order it you don't have to pay for it. By law it's a gift. Nothing more. Nor can they force you to pay for it by using scare tactics like putting it on your credit report or sending letters to your creditors. I've received that DVD not once, but twice and I haven't paid for either of them. That was some time ago.
 
jeffrey-wimberly said:
In short, if you didn't order it you don't have to pay for it. By law it's a gift. Nothing more. Nor can they force you to pay for it by using scare tactics like putting it on your credit report or sending letters to your creditors. I've received that DVD not once, but twice and I haven't paid for either of them. That was some time ago.
Click to expand...

I understand the law and appreciate your patience with my excitrable self.

Don't you think its underhanded though? Especially the fake bill part? What kind of man would you or I be if we sent out fake bills for a living hoping ppl would mess up and pay us?

I also appreciate the assurance there will be no credit report action taken. In the back of my mind I wondered if there was something in their membership agreement where I promised to buy a dozen movies over two years or similar.

These fake bill scammers must be stopped though or it will just get worse and worse for our kids. I wish more folks were up in arms instead of being soo passive. If my wife is doing bills the month their scam shows up and we pay for it because she knows I am always buying toy train stuff.... This is a real scam. Fight back just a bit guys!
 
MarkVIIIMarc said:
But please if you are in the U.S. and are going to bother to vote this November to make America better please do the same and mention it on your other RR related boards and even Model Railroad's boards. After I get done running my mouth I'll probably have to unplug my router and get a new IP or use one of the Proxies at work to post over there.
Click to expand...
Don't mention it on the Model Railroader forum. Their moderators have already been instructed to delete any thread that has 'Model Railroader' and 'Scam' in the subject line. If any mention of it is found in a thread (even if it doesn't have the aforementioned words in the subject) that part may be subject to removal.
 
I don't consider it a scam but it operates on the same level as high pressure salesman. They try to guilt trip you in to spending money. They gave up asking me to pay for it. I don't feel its my responsibility to repackage the DVD and send it back.
I like MRR and have for twenty years. I like MRP and the other special issue.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2
 
If you think this is a bad way to do business... In February, I bought my wife a new car. It has a Sirius radio in it, and we opted to not pay for the service. Sirius has been sending "bills" for the last 6 months, trying to get my wife to subscribe to their service. I look at every "bill", to make sure they haven't gotten her personal info, or are threatening to report her to the credit bureaus, and toss the "bills" in the circular file. They have also supposedly turned the service back on in her car, though neither of us has bothered checking.
 
Has anyone ever done anything about it or something similar? I figure I'll wait for the fake bill and.try emailing photo copies of everything they sent to a couple dozen tv stations. Maybe it will be a slow news day or there will be an anti elderly scam campaign going on and I can get the scammers name in the news. And posting the pics on FLICKR and Photobucket will get some more google listings for when folks search for their name
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Don't waste your time reporting it to anyone. It's not illegal. I send them back so they have to pay the return postage.
Willie
 
I received the DVD in the mail yesterday. I assumed it was a free gift and didn't even read the enclosed letter until I read your post. Thanks for the warning. I assumed it was merely advertizing and that they got my address from Walthers. I recently placed a couple orders with Walthers for the first time in many many years. The only other place they could have gotten my address from is the Greenberg Train Show, since I have been on their mailing list for years. I do not subscribe to any train related publications.
It says if I don't want to pay for it to take the dvd out of the case and return it in the postage paid envelope. I am considering using their postage paid envelope as a mailing label to send everything back, including the case it came in. That way they'll be paying full postage both ways.
 
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As already stated, there's nothing illegal about what they are doing, so reporting it to anyone is likely a waste of time.......or it will generate some new useless piece of legislation that can't be enforced or does nothing to fix the problem.
I agree the "modeling" DVDs tend to be towards the "beginner" end of the spectrum, but I'm not sure what some people are referring to as "serious" modelers. Serious has nothing to do with experience, so ALL the techniques are useful......there's no such thing as a useless technique. We all start at the bottom and work our way up adding more and more techniques and honing our skills. Noone starts as an Expert modeler. So for the market the DVD's are aimed at, they are useful tools. I actually pass on the "how to" DVD's , but about 2/3 of the ones I get (Yes I get the DVD's) are on prototypical RR's and I enjoy them. I think the last one I kept was "Amazing Alcos".
But back to the point, if you don't want it, send it back.......the return envelope is included, and if you don't have the extra minute it takes to take the DVD out of the case and stick it in the envelope, where do you find the time to work on your model RR. I figure the free DVD case is worth my time to empty it. And there IS a phone number to call if you want them to stop sending the DVD's.
 
Incidentally, guys, if you want to invest your hard-earned money in some truly worthwhile DVDs addressing modeling and modeling techniques that are regarded as common practice among serious model railroaders have a look on-line at the selections from FOS and Scotty Mason. There are others, to be sure, but these two sources I've found to be outstanding in both their illustration and instruction over the years. If you really want to learn to model like the big boys in the hobby, this is a definite way to go. To say the least, they are vaste improvement over what MR is offering in their DVDs.

NYW&B
 
MarkVIIIMarc said:
Now I've complained to the state and will file a BBB complaint against them. Perhaps after watching citizens hide behind their closed curtains and not turn in the crooks on their streets I am more sensitive than most.
Click to expand...

The BBB is probably laughing as hard as I did. Nothing illegal about this, the practice has been around for many years. Keep the DVD or throw it away, ignore any bills, move on with your life. If you find yourself overreacting to stuff like this often, you might need a hobby. Maybe model trains ...
 
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