Improving Our Steam Engines Performance
- Thread starter beiland
- Start date
One other idea that crossed my mind was to swap only one 'friction tire axle' out for a regular axle, then add electrical pic-up for that axle. That would give me 3 pick-up axles, and a single traction axle.
I am still concerned about the very little overall track contact this loco has?? I think I will ask some questions about this on a few of those 'European forums',...as well as Roco themselves. I'm rather surprised that this very reputable firm would design such an arrangement....only 2 axle pick-up for this big engine !!
I am still concerned about the very little overall track contact this loco has?? I think I will ask some questions about this on a few of those 'European forums',...as well as Roco themselves. I'm rather surprised that this very reputable firm would design such an arrangement....only 2 axle pick-up for this big engine !!
Smudge617
Well-Known Member
There are plenty of those kind of forums, these are two I belong to, someone will have an answer I'm sure.
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PARDON ME Roco!!
Here I have been wondering why Roco could have provided for so little electrical pick-up on this recent BR43 model I purchased?? Well I was TOTALLY wrong.
I had been looking for any push-pins, or sprung lever connections to those driver wheels that might indicate some sort of electrical pick-up effort. Naturally I was looking down between the wheels and the sides of frame that supported those axles...nothing there.
I decided to do a bit more exploring this morning. I removed the brake parts and the bottom bracket and discovered some 'contact pads' of metal that the driver wheel flanges ride against ! And these 'pads contact the 2 rear driver sets and the 2 front driver sets. WOW good electrical contact!!.
Notice that a couple of those driver sets are sprung down against the tracks. The electrical connection to the tender is thru those metal tabs on the drawbar.
SIMPLE, GOOD DESIGN
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Sprung Drivers
I'm further impressed with Roco's design of this steamer. While I was putting it back in its box, (waiting for traction tires), I became more aware of the spring action on the main drivers. The first and last axles are sprung in a relatively simply manner that I'm sure helps with maintaining continuous electrical contact,...that a rigid frame structure might have problems with.
I'm further impressed with Roco's design of this steamer. While I was putting it back in its box, (waiting for traction tires), I became more aware of the spring action on the main drivers. The first and last axles are sprung in a relatively simply manner that I'm sure helps with maintaining continuous electrical contact,...that a rigid frame structure might have problems with.
Smudge617
Well-Known Member
Especially if your track isn't 99% flat
I got the new traction tires for that latest Roco steamer I bought. I had measured the wheels as 10.7 mm diameter, and the best estimate of the size I should use was their 9mm ones. It turns they were correct for a tight fit. I surely don't think I would have liked to try and fit the 6mm ones that another seller suggested.
The engine runs like a champ,..pulls 15 cars up my rather steep grades, ...both of them. Turns out my steeper grade is not the most difficult of the two, ….due to its shorter length not involving all 15 cars at one time. The longer, less-steep grade is more difficult as then the engine is then trying to pull the entire length of 15 cars up a grade. Here are a few photos of the train on both grades.
first 2 photos of train going down the steeper grade
Then this one with train coming up the longer less steep grade (still steep at approx 3.5)
This is the loco,
...and this is Bachmann Northern that appears to have enough power, BUT not enough weight to do the job (look at all the weight taped to the top). I seriously doubt if I could find room in that boiler for all that weight (and that still was NOT enough weight to give it the traction to pull that 15 car train....wow).
Another good reason for a pusher/helper car,...and/or a re-evaluation of model steam loco 'driver' design.
The engine runs like a champ,..pulls 15 cars up my rather steep grades, ...both of them. Turns out my steeper grade is not the most difficult of the two, ….due to its shorter length not involving all 15 cars at one time. The longer, less-steep grade is more difficult as then the engine is then trying to pull the entire length of 15 cars up a grade. Here are a few photos of the train on both grades.
first 2 photos of train going down the steeper grade
Then this one with train coming up the longer less steep grade (still steep at approx 3.5)
This is the loco,
...and this is Bachmann Northern that appears to have enough power, BUT not enough weight to do the job (look at all the weight taped to the top). I seriously doubt if I could find room in that boiler for all that weight (and that still was NOT enough weight to give it the traction to pull that 15 car train....wow).
Another good reason for a pusher/helper car,...and/or a re-evaluation of model steam loco 'driver' design.
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trailrider
Well-Known Member
The prototype railroads certainly used helpers on steep grades, or just double-headed their locomotives, whether steam or diesel. I recall seeing a video where a diesel got stuck on a hill and they had to send for another unit to get them going again. For modeling you either have to have two locomotives that run at the same speed if using DC power, or if you have DCC, you can usually consist them.
Happy, Healthy and Safe Holidays!
Happy, Healthy and Safe Holidays!
Smudge617
Well-Known Member
I can't remember the formula, to convert the model weight of what your pulling to "real" weight, love to know if it's the same or more than the actual loco could pull. But that's something impressive to see.
Another positive observation about the Roco's design.
In a pusher situation a good firm drawbar is needed. The drawbar on that second engine (most recently purchased) is just such a design that can be plugged in or disengaged very easy. And there are two electrical contacts incorporated into the drawbar to send power to the motor in the tender.
The decoder and the speaker(s) could be all up in the boiler. I wonder if that drawbar connection could be made to have 4 connections rather than just the 2 ? Then the wheel pickups on the tender could delivery their signal to decoder, which in turn would send a signal back to the motor??
In a pusher situation a good firm drawbar is needed. The drawbar on that second engine (most recently purchased) is just such a design that can be plugged in or disengaged very easy. And there are two electrical contacts incorporated into the drawbar to send power to the motor in the tender.
The decoder and the speaker(s) could be all up in the boiler. I wonder if that drawbar connection could be made to have 4 connections rather than just the 2 ? Then the wheel pickups on the tender could delivery their signal to decoder, which in turn would send a signal back to the motor??
Smudge617
Well-Known Member
You would obviously have to do some re-wiring, if there is somewhere where you could slip the wiring thro without drilling a hole, This would be
idea for that.
Pusher/Helper
Back to the pusher/helper idea.
I had been using that DL109 behind the steamers, and very successfully. What smaller engine could I be using?
I happen to have a pretty heavy little switcher engine in my inventory,...an Alco S2 by Atlas,...but could this really substitute for the DL109.
WOW, it did a great job. First I put it behind that Bachmann Northern,..
Then behind one of my Mehano mountains,..just plain DC
I was really pleasantly surprised. This little Alco diesel model did a great job. I was pulling 20 car trains up the more difficult ramp side of my viaduct,....4.5% grade. It turns out to have a diecast frame that gives it superb weight.
I went onward to try this little diesel by itself. It couldn't quite make it, but it came close.
I then decided to get one of my Bachmann mountains out for a try. A slight problem arose here due to the Bachmann having a DCC decoder installed, so matching the speeds with the pure DC S2 needed a bit more attention. But it also worked extremely well. (BTW I tried the Bachmann mountain by itself, and was pleasantly surprised at its performance. Double heading these Bachmann mountains will definitely be on my list).
I'm convinced that a likely solution for pushing a lot of my steam engines is disguise one of these Atlas switchers into a aux water tender. Sure would save LOTS of custom efforts at adding extra weights to that variety of steamers.
Okay I'll put that subject of the Euro trains making use of powered tenders aside for awhile, and concentrate on what combos of diesel engines and freight cars could be utilized to make a few 'Disguised Pusher/Helpers'
1) S2 switcher & aux water tender. Talked about that pairing and added photos in posting number #17
2)
3)
4)
I will be double heading some of my steamers, certainly those C&O mountains that I have a number of.
I will also want to experiment with a tail-end pusher (steam on steam) after I get DCC fully operational.
But I also want to be able to run some of those large articulated steamers as lone power pulling somewhat longer trains as they did in real life. Thats why I want to create a couple of 'disguised pusher/helper freight cars'
I was skimming back thru some forum discussions having to do with the subject I started, and I ran across this one,...
I co-appreciate his desire to run single-headed steam engines at times.
I would be interested to know more about his problems with running those 2 BLI steamers together??
Posted by selector on Thursday, November 18, 2021 7:10 PM
I appreciate all the wisdom and experience expressed so far. It seems, as a general preference, or maybe as a matter of avoidance (due to inherent complication), that most of us prefer to run a single loco on the head end. Due to prototypical practices, a person modeling the modern era is almost certain to want 'lashups', and that is the common practice. We steam lovers seem to hope that our lone behemoth 2-8-2, 2-10-2, or 4-8-4 is going to do the trick, but we soon learn otherwise.
I do know that many of us doublehead steamers, and I am proud to claim that a couple of years ago I finally shoved my long coal drag, headed by a 2-6-6-4 Class A, with my trusty Y6b. It took some fancy fingerwork, thankfully on my twin encoder Digitrax paddles, but I somehow managed to avoid a single derailment in about 10 minutes of running before the stress became too much.
Doc Wayne has posted in the past how he has shoehorned the odd half-ounce or more into some of his fleet, but I would appreciate seeing and hearing from others, what they did, how they did, and what the difference was. I would like more heft to a few of my steamers, but also to some of their tenders, which I think could stand a firmer contact point on the rails.
I co-appreciate his desire to run single-headed steam engines at times.
I would be interested to know more about his problems with running those 2 BLI steamers together??
I have been doing a little more research on this subject of a 'disguised pusher/helper freight car', and collecting suggestions and observations by other folks. At this time i have dropped the idea of adding diesel power chassis to the tenders of that 4-8-4 northern,...just a few extra complications that are more easily accomplished by putting an express car/reefer behind the engine.
I've also become less interested in doing a number of 'powered aux water tenders' as they would be much more rare than the express reefers.
So my concentration will be on further development of the 'powered reefer pusher',...and the best existing powered chassis to use here. And I will NOT be concerned with rivet counter details as concerns the trucks,...adds to many extra problems and BIG expenses I wish to avoid in just giving my steam engines a great extra boost without spending a fortune.
And finally I will likely have to put this project aside for awhile as I want to get the track laid on the upper level of my new layout.
I've also become less interested in doing a number of 'powered aux water tenders' as they would be much more rare than the express reefers.
So my concentration will be on further development of the 'powered reefer pusher',...and the best existing powered chassis to use here. And I will NOT be concerned with rivet counter details as concerns the trucks,...adds to many extra problems and BIG expenses I wish to avoid in just giving my steam engines a great extra boost without spending a fortune.
And finally I will likely have to put this project aside for awhile as I want to get the track laid on the upper level of my new layout.
