History of Northeast Scale Lumber/ scale models


P

Pete V

CEO Bangor and Santa Fe
This is a question for real history buffs in the railroading business. I've been curious about the relationship between Ambroid Scale Models and Northeast Scale Lumber/ structures. I have a lot of Ambroid kits and I have a lot of NE scale lumber ones as well. When you look at the instructions, there are a variety of ways the instructions got printed. Some have NE scale lumber cut list materials on one side and Ambroid instructions on the other. Some have a NE Scale lumber sticker plastered down over the Ambroid logo but the box is Ambroid. The Ambroid boxes have at least five different addresses on them over the years.

Northeastern started out by Joe Doyle in 1947. Even that time is open to argument. He initially was doing only "S" gauge cars, branched out into trucks and somewhere along the line up the road from my current time capsule, he started in with Ambroid completely making HO kits and those kits himself but having Ambroid market them under the Ambroid name.

Doyle's capacity to cut basswood was exquisite. The models are really a joy to assemble but I keep coming back to this invisible hand that built Ambroid. I am wondering if any of you know whether NE was an invisible hand in any other model makers at the time, or into the next three decades. Doyle died in I believe 1978 and his daughter and her husband took over the business for about eight years and then sold it to a businessman in Boston who does large scale installations of fine woodworking. The shop is still at the same old address on Cross Street in Methuen. There was an article in MR in 1983 about the company but I suspect that a certain amount of that information is not really correct.

These questions need someone with a really long overview of craftsmen's kits. I am going to NE soon and have an interview opportunity with one of their oldest employees but I find that asking in odd locations yields interesting stuff. I did not know for example that Athearn made "O" gauge cars in the '40's nor did I know that in the war years that Walther's sold all zinc rail for a short time. I am absolutely loving turning over these rocks and seeing whose shoulders we are all unwittingly allowed to stand on. I thinnk my favorite thing I have uncovered yet is the guy who had bellows on his layout to run pneumatic switch machines.

Thanks in advance
 
Ambroid was a model airplane company, that wanted to get into model railroading. IIRC they made a deal for Northeastern to cut all the wood for them, and supply instructions as well. If you notice many of the Ambroid 1 of 5000 series were later re-released as NE products. Ambroid of course never finished the 5000 series as they got hit bad on the model airplane side with new technology, and stopped making RR items.

Walthers, during WWII would often have ads depicting old Bill Walthers, reaching into a barrel with the ad stating that they were "scraping the bottom of the barrel for product." Many of the products made during the war were made out of Zinc, since that was about the only metal not declared a strategic material. If you look at the products then, most of them were solid Zinc and the modeler was to come up with the missing parts, like posts and such. Many of the accessories like the signals, etc were non-operating because even 12 volt bulbs were considered strategic. While Bill even used Zinc in his loco kits at that time, but IDK if he had enough steel on hand for axles or he used something else. As soon as copper, brass, and steel were available again, Walthers brought out many new items. And yes Irv Athearn got his start making and selling O-Scale car kits. When he made the conversion to HO, I think that he sold the O-scale equipment to All-Nation. His first HO car kits were metal, and actually are still available. When he converted to plastic, the original car kits were sold to a man named Menzie and they were available under that label for many years. They are still sold, but I can't remember who has them.
 
Wow. So Carey, did you see the post I made about Gloor Craft Models? Just curious what you might know about them?

Thanks
 
Gloor Craft was originally known as Quality Craft. But how that name change occurred I really don't know. Quality Craft also used to be the distributor/manufacturer for Scalecoat and when it became Gloor Craft, the paint was sold to IIRC Weaver. Their kits were of very good quality, and where metal was needed due to a shape, or texture, they used quality Zinc/zamack castings. They even had a caboose kit or two that was brass, built around a wooden frame. I have several of their kits just waiting to get to the workbench.
 
Cjcrescent said:
Ambroid was a model airplane company, that wanted to get into model railroading. IIRC they made a deal for Northeastern to cut all the wood for them, and supply instructions as well. If you notice many of the Ambroid 1 of 5000 series were later re-released as NE products. Ambroid of course never finished the 5000 series as they got hit bad on the model airplane side with new technology, and stopped making RR items.

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The things I'm looking for from an historical perspective involve that peculiar relationship between the two companies. Even from the dead beginning of the Ambroid marketing, I look to NE and note that they made a risky business decision going into "S" even though it's clear to me that detailing in "S" is easier than doing it in "HO.

But from the first kits, the Northeastern materials list is in the kit. It says it's designed and executed by NE. I assume Doyle demanded it. That's pretty unusual, even for that time to do. What is really odd is that some kits have a straight instruction, replete with embossed documents and numbering with the NE scale stuff on the other side and some in Ambroid boxes have a label over the Ambroid printing and say N.E scale models. Ambroid seems to change its address every edition. I would imagine that Doyle at NE wasn't making a run of 5000 of each kit but took in orders for as many as Ambroid thought it could move in an alloted time period. The trick would then be that NE expected to be paid. It seems to me that under the surface, there were tensions. Doyle was not running a big company and it seems to me that the venture in "S" didn't work out well in terms of necessary market share. But what I really want to know and have yet to dig out is "Was Northeastern Supplying other model kit manufacturers at the time. Doyle really had a major edge in machining wood and I want to know how extensive his hand might have been.

It's really nice to see someone who can relate to Walthers "bottom of the barrel". Megow, another kit manufacturer anticipated those shortages and bought up major supplies prior to the war to the point where it was being stored in employees homes in Philly. I do think that what caught most of the model industry by real surprise was the shortages after the war even more than those during it.

Lastly when you say IIRC, does that mean "If I recall Correctly"?
 
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Pete V said:
...But what I really want to know and have yet to dig out is "Was Northeastern Supplying other model kit manufacturers at the time. Doyle really had a major edge in machining wood and I want to know how extensive his hand might have been.

It's really nice to see someone who can relate to Walthers "bottom of the barrel". Megow, another kit manufacturer anticipated those shortages and bought up major supplies prior to the war to the point where it was being stored in employees homes in Philly. I do think that what caught most of the model industry by real surprise was the shortages after the war even more than those during it.

Lastly when you say IIRC, does that mean "If I recall Correctly"?
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Well, since you want to know who else NorthEastern supplied or supplies wood for, currently Bar Mills & Fine Scale Miniatures. This info comes from a friend whose been in the hobby longer than I, and he said that they supplied the scale lumber for several more car and structure manufacturers, mostly from the NE section of the country. I personally believe that NE also supplied the wood for the old Main Line Models, Silver Streak, & Red Ball kit lines. These kits are currently under production by Ye Olde Huff & Puff, and I don't know if they use NE scale wood or not. The companies like Campbell's, Labelle, old Timberline etc. mostly out west, cut their own. From what he has told me Mr. Doyle had his hand in several others as well. They did make car kits and structures in HO, S, & O, but stopped doing that years ago and now their main interest is N & HO structures and dollhouses, as well as scale lumber and scribed sheets in many sizes and scales.

IIRC- "If I Remember Correctly", interchangeable with "If I Recall Correctly".

Up to a couple of years ago, I owned 2 unbuilt Megow hopper kits! The paper/cardboard sides started rotting and unfortunately the metal zinc parts started dissolving as well, so they were trashed. One had a price of .35 still on it.
 
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Cjcrescent said:
Gloor Craft was originally known as Quality Craft. But how that name change occurred I really don't know. Quality Craft also used to be the distributor/manufacturer for Scalecoat and when it became Gloor Craft, the paint was sold to IIRC Weaver. Their kits were of very good quality, and where metal was needed due to a shape, or texture, they used quality Zinc/zamack castings. They even had a caboose kit or two that was brass, built around a wooden frame. I have several of their kits just waiting to get to the workbench.
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I have 2 boxcar (Rail Box) kits needing completed and just bought two more other kits of theirs off eBay. They are very well detailed kits. I really wish they were still around. I would be curious to where the machinery and tooling went they made the scale lumber with. The tooling alone would be priceless.

By the way, do you know of any craftsman kits comparable to Gloor Craft?

Thanks for the info!
 
Cjcrescent said:
Well, since you want to know who else NorthEastern supplied or supplies wood for, currently Bar Mills & Fine Scale Miniatures. This info comes from a friend whose been in the hobby longer than I, and he said that they supplied the scale lumber for several more car and structure manufacturers, mostly from the NE section of the country. I personally believe that NE also supplied the wood for the old Main Line Models, Silver Streak, & Red Ball kit lines. These kits are currently under production by Ye Olde Huff & Puff, and I don't know if they use NE scale wood or not. The companies like Campbell's, Labelle, old Timberline etc. mostly out west, cut their own. From what he has told me Mr. Doyle had his hand in several others as well. They did make car kits and structures in HO, S, & O, but stopped doing that years ago and now their main interest is N & HO structures and dollhouses, as well as scale lumber and scribed sheets in many sizes and scales.

IIRC- "If I Remember Correctly", interchangeable with "If I Recall Correctly".

Up to a couple of years ago, I owned 2 unbuilt Megow hopper kits! The paper/cardboard sides started rotting and unfortunately the metal zinc parts started dissolving as well, so they were trashed. One had a price of .35 still on it.
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I am going to contact George Sellios and see if he will let me talk to him. It did seem to me that He was a likely candidate for having used the product. If the timeline from NE is reliable from the time before they took it down, the laser cutting aspect of the business was sold and moved to California about a decade back. I don't know what that implies. What I do know is that Doyle is an invisible hand who greatly influenced what could and couldn't be done for a long time. I recently read Linn Westcott's overview of the first fifteen years of MR which was wonderful to have. I don't yet have the perspective on the next 25 years. It's a slow slog where one primarily gleans the current status from how ads ebb and flow.

Carey, I appreciate your input enormously. The herd is being culled so rapidly now that the institutional memory is hard to find. It certainly is in my own field.. I'm driving down to Springfield this weekend to see what I can see but the prior knowledge is really helpful.

I just love the old kits. They have an energy that the new stuff doesn't bring to me. Reading a John Allen article on photography shows me a different world and it's a world I really like... but DCC is really great!

Dp you know if Rollinshouse miniatures was in any way related to Rollin Lobaugh, the force behind some profound O scale engine work in the 40's
I have all this stuff and I want to know who the people were who put it together. The shoulders we get to stand on are pretty amazing.

Thanks again. Keep it coming. Documentation would be a major benefit.

For Kevin: I think you will find that companies blink in and out of existence with the life of a mayfly. If you work ebay and get very specific- like HO Trains xxx kits and you will start to find what you're looking for. It is all out there if you get very selective but you can't count on stuff always being available which for me is part of the charm of it all. Shows can yield the kits as well. Where I live, auctions of estates are bringing out great stuff that provided entertainment in the '40's and 50's for summer people and those estates are rapidly coming to market. I see them up here regularly along with strange collections of stuffed animal heads and military memorabilia. Sitting thorugh it is hard, waiting for your item.
 
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I have done all that Pete. I am getting back into the auction scene. And I have been watching eBay for a few weeks now. So you and I think alike.

Carey's "Quality Craft" info led me to another item I didn't know existed. So thanks for that Carey.
 
Fellas, the friend that gave me the info, not only has been in the hobby for ages, but he also has industry contacts that I can only wish I had. He's OOT for the next week or so, but I'll pump him for some more info when he get's back!
 
If your friend was willing to talk to me, I'd greatly appreciate it. It's all a big puzzle as I think you know. I'm watching this company and the influence it had over almost eight decades, remarkable in itself. I am looking to put together an article for the subject since it has grabbed hold of me. I really want to see the core operations honored by the current enthusiasts. The old guys are winking out. I can supply a phone number or email off line.
 
Hey guys, something really crazy happened to me today. If you read back in this thread I mentioned I would be interested in knowing what happened with the tooling and stuff Gloor Craft used to make their kits. Well today I was on the phone with the guy that has it. Well, had I guess. He bought all of it after the original owner died. He had all of the molds for the castings but he said they were stolen. But he still has all of the shaper and custom jointer blades they used to make the siding and stuff. So I am going to buy it all in hopes that I can make use of it. I grew up a woodworker. And I miss those days of tinkering around in my dad's old wood shop. Sorry to hijack your thread for a second there Pete ;)
 
I think the real key to success there is the actual quality of the basswod used to make the pieces. When we run lumber for the mill up here, it's amazing to watch a tree virtually writhing in the saw bed sometimes. I have a friend who works big hardwood and when he gets it in, it actually goes into racks where the wood is clamped into flat and then it's left to dry for up to two years. It's not a few clamps. I was genuinely impressed. I bring it up because wood is so alive and when you start to cut into the scale that either HO or N would require, a ton of strain shows up you probably didn't know was there. I would recommend a humidor for the wood. Being methodical is key and the very best of materials certainly doesn't hurt. If it interests you, in my research on NE scale lumber, an article appears in what I think was the november 1983 Model Railroader on NE scale Lumber. I don't consider the article to be entirely correct based on other material I've been reading but it would certainly give you a notion of the level of obsessiveness that Joe Doyle had.

And I don't mind the Hijack at all, especially if I learn stuff about this part of the trade. If you can get originals of the castings, new molds can be made from them. It's not that hard. It seems to me that quality craft made much more modern car kits that I was interested in so I haven't paid much attention to them. I do have a number of the quality crft kits here on shelves but I haven't given them more than a cursory overview. The ones I really love beyond Ambroid/Northeast scale Models Which are really the same are Silverstreak before they were bought out by Ye Olde Huff n puff, Binkley, which wound up buying out Laconia, Central Valley, very early Varney ( 1948 or so ) and which are really exquisite, well before their quality was downgraded. The early lithographed steel and aluminum bodies are great. Athearn had some very nice early stuff. They all need their trucks upgraded.
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Great info. I have bought a few Gloor Craft kits recently. The guy I was speaking to actually is selling me 6 more kits. What I don't use on my layout will be used on dioramas. I haven't owned any other craftsman kits to compare to, which is why I asked earlier what else was comparable. I am going to try a couple of your suggestions. So thanks.

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To give you a notion, I don't usually like to pay more than ten bucks for kits on ebay, sometimes thirteen bucks and that needs to include the shipping. Buying the bulk offers brings the prices down. Individual kits go too high in my estimation. Ebay is a very wierd patience game. I find local auctions here to be more yielding. I live in an area where there were summer homes on the lakes and it made for a lot of boredom time in summer for kids. Now that has turned into estate sales. I only do HO .If you're doing N scale it is probably very different. It didn't exist in the 1950's per se. That really takes down the options. I'm going down to the Amherst show tomorrow and see what shows up there. That's a big dog and pony show to try to absorb.
 
What I am finding is the N scale kits are a little few and far between. Getting a craftsman kits for $10 is next to impossible. I Was looking at North Eastern Scale Models' web site today. I really like that Sam Cahoon's fish pier. I may have to order that one in a few weeks. I have tried to hit a couple shows recently. But work and snow have gotten in the way.
 
I was refering to the car kits, not the buildings. If you do cars, start with a very straightforward one, boxcars come to mind. Some kits are very complex and easy to mess up. Pictures really help. If you do mess up wood, Northeasterm Scale lumber has just about everything, right down to the bolsters.
 
Oh. I haven't seen any other N scale car kits besides my Gloor Craft ones. I would love to have some others. Here are my Gloor Craft ones I started to build when I was a kid and just found the other day...

20131213_194111_zpsfa600f32.jpg


Are there other N scale car kits out there?
 
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