Help with Selecting Track for layout


hotwinger

HO Switchman
Hello all!
As some of you know I am new and decided as my frist layout attempt to use John Armstrong's "Pennsylvania and Potomac"
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How can I find the right amount of track, size and turnouts to use to start this layout?
I tried to recreate it on Xtrkcad4 and RTS 7.0 but can't figuere it out. Could I use all Flex for this?

Thanks!!
 
You could certainly use all flex. IMO it would be much easier to do so.

Recreate this as best as you can in Xtrkcad and it can list exactly what switches you need (by what you use).

Switches, you could use switches of your choice.
 
Yeah I attempted it in Xtrkcad but that program is so hard to figuere out. I was hoping maybie there is somone on here that knows the program very well could do it for me. ( That might be asking too much) but boy would it help me out a ton.

If its easier with flex then
I'll probably use atlas code 83 flex.

I just didn't want to end up buying a bunch of flex track then trying to squeeze it all togather.
 
Flex track is great for the straightaways. Perhaps purchasing a few radii of sectional will help in laying everything out. You can always lay flex, but the sectional can aid in locating things. And the misc small piece box of sectional comes in handy.
 
My whole layout is flex, except for the turnouts of course. It's the way to go.

As for the programs, the Atlas one is much easier to use. The most important thing is to get the turnouts placed right and the curves close to the edges right. The rest is just going with the flow.

On the Atlas program, the flextrack tool is kinda wierd. If you connect the flextrack ends, then go to the "shape flextrack" tool, just click on the track. That will bring up a popup box. In it, there are two sliders at the top. Slide them both almost all the way to the left. Now hit the "optimize" button (you might have to hit it a couple of times to get the best radius). This seems to help a lot when shaping the track.
 
I second Philip on the use of flex track. One very large advantage is that it can easily give you easements into the curves (gradually going from straight to the full curve) which you can't do with the sectional smoothly. You will also have less joints to give you electrical problems some time in the future.

Can't say anything about the Atlas or other Windows based programs for layouts. I have been using Empire Express for Mac, and it will calculate and print a list of what you will need to do your design.
 
i tried the atlas progam and could not figure it out at all. track would not line up at all.
 
Thanks guys for the help.

I do have one more major concern.
I have nooo idea how to wire this layout.
from reading around I learned that you have to wire turnouts and reverse loops a certain way.
Could I run everything to the digitrax zypher that I will be using?
 
If you're going to use DCC, reverse loops and switches are considerably simpler than using DC. You can buy a reverse loop controller for DCC that will handle the polarity change without any wire or switches. Turnouts can really be any kind you have on hand. If you are buying new, it's probably an advantage to buy "dead" frog turnouts rather than powered frog turnouts because you eliminate the slight, but not impossible, chance of a short circuit at a live frog. OTOH, all of my swithes are live frog Atlas #4's and #6's and I have yet to experience a problem with them running DCC.
 
If i get "dead" frog turnouts" Will I not be able to control the them via dcc?

I Might be confused on the differance between dead and powered frog turnouts.
Sorry total newb here. but i'm learning.

And DCC is definetly the way i'm going. So when I hook up the reverse loop controller will it automatically switch the polarity when it senses the train hitting the loop?

Thank you for the help :)
 
If i get "dead" frog turnouts" Will I not be able to control the them via dcc?

In order to control the direction of the turnout from the DCC command station you need to have a couple things going on. You'll need a stationary decoder for each turnout or set of turnouts if you have them wired to be thrown in sets. Then you'll need a switch motor for each turnout that will actually throw the points. You can still throw the points remotely with your command station whether you have live frogs or not if you have the proper stuff to do it. Whether the frog is live or not doesn't effect that. It' will change the wiring slightly, but it hs nothing to do with the ability to throw the points from your command station. It can be a bit expensive to do large numbers of turnouts though, as you can see.

I Might be confused on the differance between dead and powered frog turnouts.
Sorry total newb here. but i'm learning.

You're cool, don't worry! We were all new at one time too!

The thing about dead frogs vs. live frogs is this........frogs are a small section of the tracks of a turnout where electrically opposing rails cross one another and if not treated specially they create an electrical short. The way this is remedied is that gaps are cut in all of the rails around the frog to isolate them electrically from all of the surrounding rails. If thats all that is done, you have a "dead frog". It has no power going to it but all of the rails around it do. The smaller the # of the frog, the shorter the dead section usually. Sometimes the frog is made of plastic. That's a frog that is always dead. If it's made of metal and electrically isolated (gaps cut in all of the rails leading to it) and unpowered, it's a dead frog. When you add power to it, it's live. Thing is, it's kinda like a reverse loop eletrically. When you add power to it and then throw the points the polarity needs to change. If it doesn't, you have a short. There are lots of ways to control the polarity change.....everything from many forms of automation to manual throwing of the polarity. Many switch machines will do it for you if you wire them up properly.

The big advantage of a live frog is the lack of dead spots. Our trains run on eletricity, and when they don't get power, they don't move. Shorter wheelbase (electrically speaking) loco's (like small steam switchers) tend to have more problems with dead frogs. They stall on the turnout and need a nudge to get them going again. Live frogs, while a little more difficult to do initially, tend to lessen this problem to the point that it basically becomes a non-issue.

And DCC is definetly the way i'm going. So when I hook up the reverse loop controller will it automatically switch the polarity when it senses the train hitting the loop?

Bingo! Nothing could be simpler! Wire it up one time correctly and then forget about it!
 
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So I would have to get quite a bit for my layout then.
Wow controlling you turnouts with DCC is alot more work that I thought. I'm just hoping I can figuere out the wiring.
As a newb what do you recommend? As far as my layout goes. I have quite a bit of turnouts to get.
Could I use this? http://walthers.com/exec/productinfo/150-344

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(This layout on 5x8)
I think I would have to get 7 turnouts/switches for the middle and 7 off the main lines.

And yeah I'll be starting from scratch. So i'm buying everything new.
I'm doing as much research and asking questions before I go out and buy stuff.


Thanks a bunch for the help!!
 
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DCC is really less work in the end. What makes it seem like more is that it's really just a different way of looking at things, so there's some "relearning" involved, thats all. Don't believe me? Wire up a DC control panel once and then we'll talk!

Don't hold your breath on that part. It's disco'd!

You could use something like this: http://www.digitrax.com/prd_statdec_ds64.php or this: http://www.digitrax.com/prd_statdec_ds44.php It handles up to 4 turnouts so you'll need 4 of them if you want to power 14 turnouts which will leave you two to grow on.

Then you'll need switch machines. Your choice on those. Atlas makes a cheapo one that comes with some of their turnouts. They also make an under table version (easier on the eyes). Then there's lots of others on up to what most folks concider the industry standard, the Tortoise by Circuitron. It'll handle the polarity issue for you as well as throw the points. You'll still need the other DCC parts though to get the addressing capabilities.

This website here may help with understanding some of these issues better. It's loaded with good info. http://www.wiringfordcc.com/wirefordcc_toc.htm

As for me, I looked at going the high tech route and automating everything. I even started on that road, but I found that it kind of "disconnected" me from my trains in the end. It was almost like it was just too sterile or something. I decided to instead go with ground throws ( http://www.cabooseind.com/ ) that flipped the polarity for me but I manually threw. It makes me feel more connected to my train and it's a lot cheaper too.
 
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I agree with Phillip on using DCC to control turnouts. It's expensive and really has no advantage over just wiring up a switch machine to each turnout and bringing the wires out to a toggle switch for each turnout. You have to build a small control panel for the toggle switches but, if you want electrically controlled switches, it's visually easier to understand what turnout is lined for what track than using DCC. That being said, I have ground throws on all my turnouts except for three that are hard to reach. If you have a walkaround throttle, you can follow the train, stop it, throw the turnout, and then start the train through the turnout. Except for interlocking plants, that's the way it's done on real railroads and it gets you involved in running your railroad instead of just flipping toggle switches. It also give me a chance to look at each turnout and fix any problems before I send the train through. No matter how clean your train room, some crud always manages to get somewhere in the turnout on a regular basis and you can see the problem when you hand throw. With remote turnouts, you see the problem when your train is all over the ground. :)
 
Thank you guys a bunch for your help and information.
This site has really been a big help.

You know I think I might just do all manual ground throws. It does seem alot cheaper and I can see how it would also keep you more involved in your trains and layout.
Maybie when I do a lot larger layout I will consider going with some remote turnouts. And I will be able to skip on the confusing wiring part by doing manual turnouts.

Ill be in the 60s-70s era. Should I pay attention as far as prototype version of throws ?
 
Ground throw switch machines haven't changed appreciably in the last 100 years. The Caboose Hobbies ground throw is a bigger than a prototype version of a standard railroad ground throw. The aren't so big as to look bad but big enough and beefy enough to withstand a lot of abuse. For a little more money, you can get a ground throw that has a lantern and target mounted to the top. They are a little more delicate than the standard Caboose Hobbies ground throws but they look good and give you better visual indication of the switch position. Check Walthers to see the different kinds of ground throws that Caboose Hobbies has avaiable.
 



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